Carbon dating puts Sask. Indigenous archaeological site at almost 11,000 years old

[Fred250]

Short video of site embedded in article worth a look.

https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.7448980

 

[ToddsPoint]

Do they know the Clovis culture went extinct, or do we know tool manufacturing technology suddenly changed?

I don’t think they went totally extinct. The next major culture on the scene was Folsom. They made fluted points too. I don’t think that’s a coincidence, it’s a long lasting tradition. And where do Cumberland fluted points fit into this? Lots of unanswered questions. Whether there was a cataclysm or not, Clovis culture died out. Suddenly or did they fade away? Hard to tell.

 

[Tesorodeoro]

I don’t think they went totally extinct. The next major culture on the scene was Folsom. They made fluted points too. I don’t think that’s a coincidence, it’s a long lasting tradition. And where do Cumberland fluted points fit into this? Lots of unanswered questions. Whether there was a cataclysm or not, Clovis culture died out. Suddenly or did they fade away? Hard to tell.

Actually the technology died out? Correct? Are they typing the “culture” to this particular flaking style or was there a large gap in time before sites began showing signs of habitation via. Carbon dating?

Interesting stuff

 

[newnan man]

The Younger Dryas impact theory fits in perfectly with the sudden disappearance.

 

[Tesorodeoro]

The Younger Dryas impact theory fits in perfectly with the sudden disappearance.

Disappearance of what? The Clovis style artifacts, or the people?

 

[newnan man]

Disappearance of what? The Clovis style artifacts, or the people?

The people. Their artifacts are still being found.

 

[ToddsPoint]

Disappearance of what? The Clovis style artifacts, or the people?

Whatever the cataclysm was that happened wiped out all the megafauna in one fell swoop. Literally millions of animals perished worldwide in the northern hemisphere. In Siberia, approximately 250 million wooly mammoths disappeared. It wouldn’t surprise me at all if a bunch of frozen ice age hunters will eventually pop up in Siberia. There was even a movie with that premise. You can bet that any people living among those animals disappeared too. If you lived far enough south, you might have survived, but your culture didn’t. Or it was changed so drastically that it morphed into a new culture with the survivors.

 

[ARC]

Too bad I never believed in Archeology numbers / year estimates. (Skewed and screwed.)
And certainly never believed in Carbon Dating of anything older than 1000 years.
Otherwise... its still interesting none the less.

 

[ToddsPoint]

Too bad I never believed in Archeology numbers / year estimates. (Skewed and screwed.)
And certainly never believed in Carbon Dating of anything older than 1000 years.
Otherwise... its still interesting none the less.

Which numbers do you think are skewed?

 

[newnan man]

Carbon dating id pretty accurate to around 50 K years.

 

[ARC]

Which numbers do you think are skewed?

All of em....

 

[ToddsPoint]

All of em....

So you believe the earth is only 6,000 yrs old?🤷🏼

 

[ARC]

So you believe the earth is only 6,000 yrs old?🤷🏼

No... i believe that the Earth is extremely old.
What i do not believe is the numbers like "millions" of years old... especially when speaking about dinosaurs etc.
When it come to humans... i think the stretches of imaginations have played a huge part in determining ages.
Personally ... I would say that the human chain of life is more than your number of 6,000 + years.
And dinosaurs are 12,000 + old.
I also believe that dino's and humans have lived together until today.
Just look around... SOME do still exist.

I have no real evidence to support my theories... just common sense and instinct.

 

[newnan man]

I think there is a lot about very ancient history (life) we know very little about. That and the fact many archeologists have a narrative that they try to fit everything into makes for interesting conversations.

 

[Tesorodeoro]

The people. Their artifacts are still being found.

So there is a huge gap in the record of human presence during that period?

 

[newnan man]

So there is a huge gap in the record of human presence during that period?

The Clovis culture came on the scene around 13,500 BP and abruptly disappeared around 12,600 BP. The later dates corresponds with the Younger Dryas Impact theory which claims a very large meteor/asteroid impact/impacts on the northern hemisphere caused a massive almost instant change in the environment. Major flooding on a scale we cannot imagine occurring almost instantly. This resulted in mass extintions of the megafauna. It's not a stretch to include the Clovis man in this disaster.

 

[Fred250]

I am loving the independent thinking of those who have stayed with this forum. Careful, the next thing you know you will start seeing mammoths on everything,

 

[Tesorodeoro]

The Clovis culture came on the scene around 13,500 BP and abruptly disappeared around 12,600 BP. The later dates corresponds with the Younger Dryas Impact theory which claims a very large meteor/asteroid impact/impacts on the northern hemisphere caused a massive almost instant change in the environment. Major flooding on a scale we cannot imagine occurring almost instantly. This resulted in mass extintions of the megafauna. It's not a stretch to include the Clovis man in this disaster.

I have learned about this. In fact I listened to Randall Carlson on a podcast last night. Interesting stuff.

My question, if I have not been direct, is how was this “culture” defined? Was it strictly based on a flaking technique (that has been tied to carbon dating) or is there other evidence that is tied to these people? Is it simply a name assigned to all humans that lived in NA during a specific time period? Sorry to beat a dead horse.

 

[Tesorodeoro]

Whats interesting is that the Clovis style points can be found in the same general areas as Western Stemmed Tradition points. The utilization of these two styles overlap. With the WST predating the Clovis. The WST persisted until about 4000 years ago.

In my mind this indicates man simply abandoned the Clovis style for one more suited for the smaller game that was available. At least out west.

Maybe the “culture” died out simply because the food source changed and the flaking technique evolved?

That’s why I asked if the people vanished or the Clovis flaking technique simply evolved to something different.

 

[newnan man]

Whats interesting is that the Clovis style points can be found in the same general areas as Western Stemmed Tradition points. The utilization of these two styles overlap. With the WST predating the Clovis. The WST persisted until about 4000 years ago.

In my mind this indicates man simply abandoned the Clovis style for one more suited for the smaller game that was available. At least out west.

Maybe the “culture” died out simply because the food source changed and the flaking technique evolved?

That’s why I asked if the people vanished or the Clovis flaking technique simply evolved to something different.

Those are excellent questions. Fluted points are rare & very ancient. The Western Stemmed points seem to be "form follows function" artifacts and are close to in technique many styles continent wide.

 

[Tesorodeoro]

This is what AI tells me for what it is worth. It has the tendency to tell you what you want to hear.

It’s interesting none the less.

“The term “Clovis culture” is useful for identifying a specific archaeological tradition defined by a distinctive style of tools (like Clovis points), certain flaking techniques, and a broad timeline (about 13,000 years ago). However, it should not be understood as defining a unified, monolithic “culture of people.” Rather, it reflects a technological and regional classification based on shared tool types and practices, with considerable variation likely existing between groups in different regions.”

“The Myth of a “Sudden” Disappearance:

• The idea of a “sudden disappearance” has been oversimplified over the years. In reality, the shift from Clovis to other point styles was likely gradual and regionally variable. The Clovis point culture may have gradually declined or transitioned rather than abruptly disappeared.
• Some sites show a gradual replacement of Clovis points by other styles of tools, including WST points, which suggests continuity rather than abrupt disappearance. The change was likely tied to broader shifts in climate, the environment, and subsistence practices (like the extinction of megafauna), but the people remained in the same regions, just adapting their tools and hunting methods.
• Cultural Continuity and Evolution:
• While the specific tool style associated with Clovis points faded, it is essential to remember that Clovis people were not a single, isolated “culture” but rather a group that shared technological practices. As those practices evolved into WST tools and other innovations, cultural continuity persisted.
• Genetic evidence and the continued occupation of the same regions by people after Clovis suggests that there was no abrupt or dramatic disappearance of human groups. Instead, the people remained, adapting their tools and strategies to the changing environment, which included the extinction of large animals and the rise of different hunting techniques.
• Wider Context of Prehistoric Change:
• Archaeologically, there is a broader shift in technology that encompasses both Clovis and WST tools as part of the Paleoindian period. The apparent “disappearance” of Clovis culture is part of a larger transition from specialized megafauna hunting tools to more generalized hunting and gathering practices in the post-ice age world.
• The post-Clovis transition reflects a more complex, regionally diverse cultural landscape, where groups across North America were developing a wide range of adaptations to new environmental conditions, and regional toolkits varied.
• New Interpretations of Clovis Decline:
• In recent decades, archaeologists have begun to move away from the idea of a “sudden collapse” and instead focus on a gradual transformation and regional variation in the use of tools. The decline of megafauna and changing climate around 12,000 years ago may have led to a long-term shift in hunting techniques, leading to the reduced prominence of Clovis-style tools, but not a sudden disappearance of the people.
• There was no singular Clovis “collapse” but rather a continuing adaptation to new realities, including the rise of smaller game, the development of new hunting tools like WST points, and the diversification of subsistence strategies.

Conclusion:
The “sudden disappearance” of the Clovis culture is more a product of how archaeologists have historically interpreted the end of Clovis points and tools rather than an actual sudden disappearance of people. Instead, what we see is a gradual evolution in technology, tool use, and hunting strategies as climate change and the extinction of megafauna reshaped the environment. People continued to live in the same areas and adapt their cultural practices, including transitioning to WST points and other technologies, which are markers of cultural continuity. The shift from Clovis to WST does not imply a cultural disappearance, but rather an evolution of the people’s tools and practices in response to changing environmental pressures.