Carbon dating puts Sask. Indigenous archaeological site at almost 11,000 years old

[Fred250]

Short video of site embedded in article worth a look.

https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.7448980

 

[GirlWithWolf]

This is what AI tells me for what it is worth. It has the tendency to tell you what you want to hear.

It’s interesting none the less.

“The term “Clovis culture” is useful for identifying a specific archaeological tradition defined by a distinctive style of tools (like Clovis points), certain flaking techniques, and a broad timeline (about 13,000 years ago). However, it should not be understood as defining a unified, monolithic “culture of people.” Rather, it reflects a technological and regional classification based on shared tool types and practices, with considerable variation likely existing between groups in different regions.”

“The Myth of a “Sudden” Disappearance:

• The idea of a “sudden disappearance” has been oversimplified over the years. In reality, the shift from Clovis to other point styles was likely gradual and regionally variable. The Clovis point culture may have gradually declined or transitioned rather than abruptly disappeared.
• Some sites show a gradual replacement of Clovis points by other styles of tools, including WST points, which suggests continuity rather than abrupt disappearance. The change was likely tied to broader shifts in climate, the environment, and subsistence practices (like the extinction of megafauna), but the people remained in the same regions, just adapting their tools and hunting methods.
• Cultural Continuity and Evolution:
• While the specific tool style associated with Clovis points faded, it is essential to remember that Clovis people were not a single, isolated “culture” but rather a group that shared technological practices. As those practices evolved into WST tools and other innovations, cultural continuity persisted.
• Genetic evidence and the continued occupation of the same regions by people after Clovis suggests that there was no abrupt or dramatic disappearance of human groups. Instead, the people remained, adapting their tools and strategies to the changing environment, which included the extinction of large animals and the rise of different hunting techniques.
• Wider Context of Prehistoric Change:
• Archaeologically, there is a broader shift in technology that encompasses both Clovis and WST tools as part of the Paleoindian period. The apparent “disappearance” of Clovis culture is part of a larger transition from specialized megafauna hunting tools to more generalized hunting and gathering practices in the post-ice age world.
• The post-Clovis transition reflects a more complex, regionally diverse cultural landscape, where groups across North America were developing a wide range of adaptations to new environmental conditions, and regional toolkits varied.
• New Interpretations of Clovis Decline:
• In recent decades, archaeologists have begun to move away from the idea of a “sudden collapse” and instead focus on a gradual transformation and regional variation in the use of tools. The decline of megafauna and changing climate around 12,000 years ago may have led to a long-term shift in hunting techniques, leading to the reduced prominence of Clovis-style tools, but not a sudden disappearance of the people.
• There was no singular Clovis “collapse” but rather a continuing adaptation to new realities, including the rise of smaller game, the development of new hunting tools like WST points, and the diversification of subsistence strategies.

Conclusion:
The “sudden disappearance” of the Clovis culture is more a product of how archaeologists have historically interpreted the end of Clovis points and tools rather than an actual sudden disappearance of people. Instead, what we see is a gradual evolution in technology, tool use, and hunting strategies as climate change and the extinction of megafauna reshaped the environment. People continued to live in the same areas and adapt their cultural practices, including transitioning to WST points and other technologies, which are markers of cultural continuity. The shift from Clovis to WST does not imply a cultural disappearance, but rather an evolution of the people’s tools and practices in response to changing environmental pressures.

Interesting indeed and what makes a lot more sense to me. I don’t know enough about it to argue either way, but in my mind it would be like in 10,000 years saying America’s people disappeared because suddenly flip phones quit being produced, then a new people came in later and they had iPhones. Or people X disappeared because steam locomotives stopped being made, but another people, X2, arrived with diesel powered trains.

Neither is true, we just advanced, the the tools actually changed the culture not the other way around.

 

[ToddsPoint]

The younger dryas was a huge extinction event. Millions of animals perished. If there were Clovis people living among them, they obviously perished as well. Humans didn’t become extinct, so someone survived somewhere. The people came back and adapted to the new reality of no more megafauna. The largest surviving animal was bison antiquus. That became the target of the Folsom people. Another paleo group that still made fluted points. Bison antiquus and Folsom culture lasted another thousand years. The bison eventually became extinct and the Folsom culture morphed into something new.

 

[Tesorodeoro]

The younger dryas was a huge extinction event. Millions of animals perished. If there were Clovis people living among them, they obviously perished as well. Humans didn’t become extinct, so someone survived somewhere. The people came back and adapted to the new reality of no more megafauna. The largest surviving animal was bison antiquus. That became the target of the Folsom people. Another paleo group that still made fluted points. Bison antiquus and Folsom culture lasted another thousand years. The bison eventually became extinct and the Folsom culture morphed into something new.

That’s a decent theory.
However, could it also have been an event that caused a several years long winter, where large animals dependent on massive amounts of vegetation perished, and large predators specially built to hunt these large animals found themselves not well suited to hunting smaller game perished themselves? Perhaps humans, being mentally evolved, subsisted on mice, voles, insects, and small game that had previously adapted to a cold climate. Not to mention the carcasses of the large animals. Humans had already mastered the preservation of food and the creation of fire.

Large animals require a lot of calories to maintain the status quo. Some may not have been able to survive 5 winters in a row without the summer to replenish what was lost in the prior winter.

Then the sun came back out and summers returned, animals migrated, and humans continued to wake up every morning?

This is just my musings, trying to explain why only the large animals went extinct, yet we have such biodiversity now. I guess I need to study the scale of extinction. I know folks much smarter than myself have done this for a century or more.

 

[newnan man]

That’s a decent theory.
However, could it also have been an event that caused a several years long winter, where large animals dependent on massive amounts of vegetation perished, and large predators specially built to hunt these large animals found themselves not well suited to hunting smaller game perished themselves? Perhaps humans, being mentally evolved, subsisted on mice, voles, insects, and small game that had previously adapted to a cold climate. Not to mention the carcasses of the large animals. Humans had already mastered the preservation of food and the creation of fire.

Large animals require a lot of calories to maintain the status quo. Some may not have been able to survive 5 winters in a row without the summer to replenish what was lost in the prior winter.

Then the sun came back out and summers returned, animals migrated, and humans continued to wake up every morning?

Many of these animals were found "flash frozen" with green vegetation still in their stomachs. Many were found with large bones snapped and all mixed up with bones of animals they would not normally co-exist with. This points to a massive sudden flood then an instant deep freeze. The Younger Drysa Impact Theroy group of scientists & archeologists lay out a compelling case for a massive impact & subsequent disaster. It is now pretty much accepted as factual. Phys.org has and excellent article about Professor James Kennet and his research group on this subject.

 

[Tesorodeoro]

“It is now pretty much accepted as factual.” I’m not sure we are quite there yet.

 

[russau]

Whats interesting is that the Clovis style points can be found in the same general areas as Western Stemmed Tradition points. The utilization of these two styles overlap. With the WST predating the Clovis. The WST persisted until about 4000 years ago.

In my mind this indicates man simply abandoned the Clovis style for one more suited for the smaller game that was available. At least out west.

Maybe the “culture” died out simply because the food source changed and the flaking technique evolved?

That’s why I asked if the people vanished or the Clovis flaking technique simply evolved to something different.

Thats a interesting point / question ! And I'd like to read comments from it !

 

[Tesorodeoro]

Randal Carlson claims that the climate was instantly forced into glacial temperatures and that it took 1,300 years to reverse. Aren’t these geological and carbon dating timelines subject to fairly large revisions and refinement? 1300 years seems like a blink in time, but eternity for survival.