Cave of gold bars

[Tom_in_CA]

only an idiot would post a valuable find...as soon as word gets out you made a valuable find the parasites begin to circle....govt agencies...state agencies..and then you have family...brother in laws...father in laws..etc....you'd be broke in a month...lol

Ahhh this is just so classic, eh Az-dave ? We jinxed each other and posted at the same time . You must've been writing just as I was hitting the "post" button.

And as your post attests: I read your mind. Yup, the standard fall-back line: Fabulous treasures (jesuit gold vaults, etc....) are being found. But lo & behold, no one can show anyone proof. Because, shucks, they fear the IRS, claim-jumpers, cultural heritage issues, thieves, etc..... Got it.

 

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[azdave35]

Ahhh this is just so classic, eh Az-dave ? We jinxed each other and posted at the same time . You must've been writing just as I was hitting the "post" button.

And as your post attests: I read your mind. Yup, the standard fall-back line: Fabulous treasures (jesuit gold vaults, etc....) are being found. But lo & behold, no one can show anyone proof. Because, shucks, they fear the IRS, claim-jumpers, cultural heritage issues, thieves, etc..... Got it.

learn it...know it...live it

 

[EarnieP]

Wait, are you guys trying to make me believe that Jess from the old Laramie TV show did NOT find a map to the Lost Dutchman Mine hidden inside that fancy spur?

Sacrilege!

 

[azdave35]

Wait, are you guys trying to make me believe that Jess from the old Laramie TV show did NOT find a map to the Lost Dutchman Mine hidden inside that fancy spur?

Sacrilege!

it was on tv so it must be true

 

[deducer]

Deducer, I was going by Gollum's stated date of 1773 It's in his post #124. He had said "1773", and I did not check my own material in the matter.

BUT THE POINT IS MOOT ! It matters NOT which school of clergy were up in the northern spanish frontier, and which years someone could quibble about. The bottom line is: These missions were lucky to get supplies at all at times. There is no gold lying hither and yonder littering the bottom of caves and mines here. If anyone believes so, me thinks they've watched one-too-many episodes of Raiders of the Lost Ark. JMHO

You need to go back and reread his post. He said worldwide suppression of the Jesuits, (e.g., the Papal suppression) which did happen in 1773.

But you are speaking of the year 1771 in the context of the "California missions" e.g., the region known as Alta California, and it is this region, the Pimeria Alta, and the rest of the New World, that the Jesuits were expelled from, in 1767, which invalidates the rest of your claims in the post I referenced.

In that regard, you are far from being any sort of expert on the subject at which you sneer.

 

[gollum]

Deducer, I was going by Gollum's stated date of 1773 It's in his post #124. He had said "1773", and I did not check my own material in the matter.

BUT THE POINT IS MOOT ! It matters NOT which school of clergy were up in the northern spanish frontier, and which years someone could quibble about. The bottom line is: These missions were lucky to get supplies at all at times. There is no gold lying hither and yonder littering the bottom of caves and mines here. If anyone believes so, me thinks they've watched one-too-many episodes of Raiders of the Lost Ark. JMHO

Tom,

Thanks for the kind words.

This is where knowledge of history is so important. The Jesuit Order was suppressed in almost every country they operated in over the years. My main area of study is in the New World. Portugal kicked the Order out of all their land holdings worldwide in 1759. The French kicked the Order out of all their land holdings worldwide in 1764. The Spanish kicked the Order out of all their land holdings worldwide in 1767. The Kings of France and Portugal forced Pope Clement XIV to issue a Papal Brief entitled "Dominus Ac Redemptor Noster", which suppressed the Jesuits as an Order in July of 1773. They were only allowed to operate as Jesuits in Russia, Prussia, and Maryland until their restoration in 1814.

Joe has done his homework, but leaves out things that don't further his view. When confronted with the enormous find in Rio de Janeiro in 1891, we first hear its newspaper BS. It is also included in the Canada Law Review of 1892. He then likes to say "Well, that was in Brazil, we are talking about Pimeria Alta". Anyone who has studied Jesuit Suppressions Worldwide, knows they were suppressed from all those countries for mostly the same thing: Political Intrigues detrimental to the current governments (some were even involved at different levels in attempted assassinations as in England and Portugal). I am saying that Jesuits are Jesuits are Jesuits. They operate the same way everywhere they work.

When it comes to the Jesuit Order, history books are not the final word. Every history book I have ever read says that Padre Eusebio Francisco Kino SJ died of a fever in his Mission at Magdalena in 1711. I have a friend that has been documenting the history of the Seri Indians of Mexico. The Seri were/are a very warlike tribe that claim Tiburon Island in the Sea of Cortez as their homeland. The Spanish had the Franciscans and the Jesuits try and convert them to Catholicism. The Seri would not convert, so the Spanish put a bounty on Seri Scalps. That is why there are only about 80 or so Seris to this day. Part of Seri Tribal history is that they hated the way they were being treated by the Jesuits, so they poisoned Padre Kino. That is the source of his "fever".

The Jesuits were the largest slave holders in the New World. They had the largest Sugar Plantations in the world. They owned some of the largest herds of horses, cattle, and sheep in the New World.

Since the Thirteenth Century, it was stated clearly in every Royal Decree that "No Religiosos o Clerigos" were to work or own mines. The Jesuits themselves issued an Ecclesiastical Precept that no Jesuits were to work mines. They were not even supposed to show any knowledge of the mining arts in ANY WAY. If you think the Jesuits didn't own/work mines, then read Col. Poston's History of the Wandering Jew Mine (Silver/Lead/Galena). Read about the excavation of the Mission at Guevavi to see proof of smelting and bell casting. If you read about all the sicknesses at Guevavi, you will see they more closely resemble heavy metal poisoning (rather than smallpox).

Tired of typing, but maybe you will get my point. Read all the Bolton you want, but he was not the last word on Jesuits in the New World.

Mike

 

[Tom_in_CA]

.....

In that regard, you are far from being any sort of expert on the subject at which you sneer.

Nope. I am not an expert I had just caught a passing glance at his date in reference to the Jesuits, and did not cross-check my material. I lead mostly 4th grade tours at the mission. So you can imagine that such nuances as this are not needed for that. I am also the token Protestant docent there, so .... I haven't studied to split hairs on this subject. Hence yes, I have not concerned myself with these dates, schools of clergy, etc...

BUT WHAT I AM AN EXPERT ON, and what I DO have "bragging rights" to sneer on, is: The caliber of finds that come from the missions. Not only have I hunted on, in, and around several of them, but I also hunted with a fellow who was hunting them back in the 1970s. Back in those days (before the era of archaeological sensitivities was full bore), he would just waltz right up, get permission, and go. And if he didn't get permission , then he'd just wait till mid-night and hop the fence. He has perhaps 300 reales. Some of his stories would make archies roll over in their graves.

And guess how many Escudos he racked up ? Zero. Oh sure, he has something like 11 gold coins so far, but none are Spanish or Mexican. If anyone deserved one, it was him.

So I consider myself qualified to talk on this subject from at least that angle. The question remains: If the Spanish missions here (regardless of who the clergy school was) was rolling in that much gold, why do we rarely ever find gold items ? Believe me: It's not for lack of getting the correct period targets !

 

[azdave35]

Nope. I am not an expert I had just caught a passing glance at his date in reference to the Jesuits, and did not cross-check my material. I lead mostly 4th grade tours at the mission. So you can imagine that such nuances as this are not needed for that. I am also the token Protestant docent there, so .... I haven't studied to split hairs on this subject. Hence yes, I have not concerned myself with these dates, schools of clergy, etc...

BUT WHAT I AM AN EXPERT ON, and what I DO have "bragging rights" to sneer on, is: The caliber of finds that come from the missions. Not only have I hunted on, in, and around several of them, but I also hunted with a fellow who was hunting them back in the 1970s. Back in those days (before the era of archaeological sensitivities was full bore), he would just waltz right up, get permission, and go. And if he didn't get permission , then he'd just wait till mid-night and hop the fence. He has perhaps 300 reales. Some of his stories would make archies roll over in their graves.

And guess how many Escudos he racked up ? Zero. Oh sure, he has something like 11 gold coins so far, but none are Spanish or Mexican. If anyone deserved one, it was him.

So I consider myself qualified to talk on this subject from at least that angle. The question remains: If the Spanish missions here (regardless of who the clergy school was) was rolling in that much gold, why do we rarely ever find gold items ? Believe me: It's not for lack of getting the correct period targets !

the jesuits liked silver my friend

 

[Tom_in_CA]

.....Tired of typing, but maybe you will get my point....

Mike, excellent post. I can tell you know your stuff. We might disagree on the 'treasure' implications of all this, but .... I am enjoying reading your stuff. I will only briefly comment here:

a) re.: "slaves": Bear in mind that the meaning of this word, in today's vocabulary and mental image, is of blacks in the American southwest prior to the CW. Eg.: stocks, bonds, whippings, blah blah. But there was a time when the word was more akin in meaning/effect of employee, or servant, etc... I do not want to enter a debate with anyone on this, and yes, I'm sure the world in the 1700s was harsh, cruel, etc... But you have to factor in the times. Things like corporal punishment, forced labor, etc... were not something unique to just one race or religion or class. It was world-wide at the time. Even the British navy could give a sailor 20 lashes for insubordination. Or tell them to "walk the plank". Heck, when I was a kid in the 1960s, we got a ruler across the knuckles for talking in class ! But today, an NFL player is front page news if he spanked his kid.

So what I'm saying is, if you think the fact of "slaves" meant "riches" (for whomever had "slaves"), this is not necessarily a given.

b) And as for all the church's land and cattle etc...: You have to remember that the church and the government were in a cooperative effort at the time (not the separation of church and state we have today). So the mission frontier posts (which might each have a detachment of soldiers stationed) administered the land on behalf of the crown. So it was really the crown (Spains) land. The riches (cattle, land, etc...) was only administered/over-seen by the church. It wasn't really the church's riches to do with what they pleased. Am I saying that they didn't have liberty to benefit from the resources ? Of course not. But don't think for a moment they weren't sincere about their religious convictions (to spread the gospel). It wasn't about mining, riches, prosperity, etc... If you read the accounts (from their own words) of the early missionaries (Serra, for instance), you will see that they were quite sincere. Could there have been bad apples ? Sure.

c) As for mines, (and supposed reams of gold brimming at the seams): An interesting factoid emerges from history, at least in-so-far as the CA missions are concerned: Spain , at one time early one (within the first decade of start the CA missions) was thinking of abandoning the alta CA effort. Why ? LACK OF NATURAL RESOURCES (mineral wealth, etc...) Kind of silly when you think about how much gold was eventually to be found during the CA gold rush, eh ? But at those earlier mission times, it was still, as of yet, unknown. So Serra implored Spain to not abandon the effort, and to continue on.

But let's just assume for the moment there was mines. Perhaps in NM, TX, AZ, and eventually CA, etc ... Ok, well sure: They harvested all sorts of prosperity from the land. Eg.: cattle, seal furs, mineral wealth, etc... Why wouldn't they ? They were administering on behalf of the crown after all. They had to subsist off their own resources after all.

But cut to the chase and ask yourself how much frickin' gold could you get by hand labor (EVEN WITH FORCED LABOR) back in those days ? I mean, heck, we have mechanized means nowadays, state-of-the-art metal detectors, etc... And most hobbyists, even with such advanced abilities to get nuggets, process ore, etc... are LUCKY to get a profitable amount. Right ? Even full-bore mining operations that process ore on a grand scale (with advanced abilities to find the most profitable regions, shafts, etc...) will work their tails off to make a single bar of gold (having processed thousands upon thousands of cubic yards of material to get that !).

So ...somehow ... because you see a few lone shafts that dot the desert now, and you could (if you did) find out they were Spanish era dated, and ....... somehow this equates to "gold stacked to the ceiling" ? I'm sorry, but if they can't do it now, with all the advances we have at our disposal, how did they just magically just find caves with naturally occurring fist sized nuggets all over back then ? It just defies all mining logic.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

the jesuits liked silver my friend

the world liked silver my friend. And still does. It's not a phenomena that's unique to any particular religious persuasion, or political or race affiliation. Mankind has, and always will be, drawn to silver and gold

 

[azdave35]

Mike, excellent post. I can tell you know your stuff. We might disagree on the 'treasure' implications of all this, but .... I am enjoying reading your stuff. I will only briefly comment here:

a) re.: "slaves": Bear in mind that the meaning of this word, in today's vocabulary and mental image, is of blacks in the American southwest prior to the CW. Eg.: stocks, bonds, whippings, blah blah. But there was a time when the word was more akin in meaning/effect of employee, or servant, etc... I do not want to enter a debate with anyone on this, and yes, I'm sure the world in the 1700s was harsh, cruel, etc... But you have to factor in the times. Things like corporal punishment, forced labor, etc... were not something unique to just one race or religion or class. It was world-wide at the time. Even the British navy could give a sailor 20 lashes for insubordination. Or tell them to "walk the plank". Heck, when I was a kid in the 1960s, we got a ruler across the knuckles for talking in class ! But today, an NFL player is front page news if he spanked his kid.

So what I'm saying is, if you think the fact of "slaves" meant "riches" (for whomever had "slaves"), this is not necessarily a given.

b) And as for all the church's land and cattle etc...: You have to remember that the church and the government were in a cooperative effort at the time (not the separation of church and state we have today). So the mission frontier posts (which might each have a detachment of soldiers stationed) administered the land on behalf of the crown. So it was really the crown (Spains) land. The riches (cattle, land, etc...) was only administered/over-seen by the church. It wasn't really the church's riches to do with what they pleased. Am I saying that they didn't have liberty to benefit from the resources ? Of course not. But don't think for a moment they weren't sincere about their religious convictions (to spread the gospel). It wasn't about mining, riches, prosperity, etc... If you read the accounts (from their own words) of the early missionaries (Serra, for instance), you will see that they were quite sincere. Could there have been bad apples ? Sure.

c) As for mines, (and supposed reams of gold brimming at the seams): An interesting factoid emerges from history, at least in-so-far as the CA missions are concerned: Spain , at one time early one (within the first decade of start the CA missions) was thinking of abandoning the alta CA effort. Why ? LACK OF NATURAL RESOURCES (mineral wealth, etc...) Kind of silly when you think about how much gold was eventually to be found during the CA gold rush, eh ? But at those earlier mission times, it was still, as of yet, unknown. So Serra implored Spain to not abandon the effort, and to continue on.

But let's just assume for the moment there was mines. Perhaps in NM, TX, AZ, and eventually CA, etc ... Ok, well sure: They harvested all sorts of prosperity from the land. Eg.: cattle, seal furs, mineral wealth, etc... Why wouldn't they ? They were administering on behalf of the crown after all. They had to subsist off their own resources after all.

But cut to the chase and ask yourself how much frickin' gold could you get by hand labor (EVEN WITH FORCED LABOR) back in those days ? I mean, heck, we have mechanized means nowadays, state-of-the-art metal detectors, etc... And most hobbyists, even with such advanced abilities to get nuggets, process ore, etc... are LUCKY to get a profitable amount. Right ? Even full-bore mining operations that process ore on a grand scale (with advanced abilities to find the most profitable regions, shafts, etc...) will work their tails off to make a single bar of gold (having processed thousands upon thousands of cubic yards of material to get that !).

So ...somehow ... because you see a few lone shafts that dot the desert now, and you could (if you did) find out they were Spanish era dated, and ....... somehow this equates to "gold stacked to the ceiling" ? I'm sorry, but if they can't do it now, with all the advances we have at our disposal, how did they just magically just find caves with naturally occurring fist sized nuggets all over back then ? It just defies all mining logic.

lol..you sure your name isn't tammy instead of tommy?...you are stubborn as a dern female...the reason we aren't digging up tons of gold with all our technological advancement is because the early birds got it all ...when the Spaniards and then the Mexicans first got here all the goodies were laying on top of the ground and they scooped it up..lol....we gotta work for whats left....if you would have rolled up on the goldfield area in 1880 you would have been a millionaire in six months...there is still plenty of gold there but you're gonna work hard for it now

 

[Tom_in_CA]

.... because the early birds got it all .....

This would only be true of nuggets visible to the naked eye and easily panned. An example of what you are saying is seen @ the CA gold rush. It is true that the earlier arrivers did indeed simply go the likely curves in the streams , and pick up the easy ones. And it got more difficult as time went on the following year of arrivals. And ... eventually ... to placer mining and industrial means. But sure: Earlier on, nuggets could simply be picked up.

But what is not making sense here, is that WE ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT THAT. We're talking about mines . And correct me if I'm wrong, but that implies some hard-rock work. NOT "picking up nuggets off the top of the ground easy stuff".

And I'm sorry but I disagree that early arriving Spanish had the ability to scout and cover and simply know every "most productive region".

We'll have to agree to disagree.

 

[azdave35]

This would only be true of nuggets visible to the naked eye and easily panned. An example of what you are saying is seen @ the CA gold rush. It is true that the earlier arrivers did indeed simply go the likely curves in the streams , and pick up the easy ones. And it got more difficult as time went on the following year of arrivals. And ... eventually ... to placer mining and industrial means. But sure: Earlier on, nuggets could simply be picked up.

But what is not making sense here, is that WE ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT THAT. We're talking about mines . And correct me if I'm wrong, but that implies some hard-rock work. NOT "picking up nuggets off the top of the ground easy stuff".

And I'm sorry but I disagree that early arriving Spanish had the ability to scout and cover and simply know every "most productive region".

We'll have to agree to disagree.

actually we don't have to disagree...you should just listen to reason...i've been a hard rock miner for many years and i know of quite a few people that have found surface deposits in rock that were very rich...one man i know found a pocket high up on the cliffs of the salt river in the early 70's..he found it on the surface and it pinched out 3 foot down...but in that 3 foot of quartz he took out $50,000 in gold....if you think about it there used to be thousands of those shallow pockets visible on top of the ground...alot of the shallow prospect holes you see could have been a rich pocket...take the word of a miner...the early birds that got here first took the gravy and left the scraps for us

 

[Carl995]

lol..you sure your name isn't tammy instead of tommy?...you are stubborn as a dern female...the reason we aren't digging up tons of gold with all our technological advancement is because the early birds got it all ...when the Spaniards and then the Mexicans first got here all the goodies were laying on top of the ground and they scooped it up..lol....we gotta work for whats left....if you would have rolled up on the goldfield area in 1880 you would have been a millionaire in six months...there is still plenty of gold there but you're gonna work hard for it now

I was thinking the same thing when I read Tom's post.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Am I the only one who saw a contradiction in this ?

.......the early birds that got here first took the gravy and left the scraps for us

versus:

.... i know of quite a few people that have found surface deposits in rock that were very rich...one man i know found a pocket high up on the cliffs of the salt river in the early 70's..he found it on the surface and it pinched out 3 foot down...but in that 3 foot of quartz he took out $50,000 in gold......

and :

.......if you would have rolled up on the goldfield area in 1880 you would have been a millionaire in six months.......

Ok, did anyone catch it ? The early birds got all the worms ? But lo & behold, examples of modern day rich ore ? Or Ore that was still there in 1880, WELL AFTER the Spanish era ? Please tell me someone else is seeing these blatant contradictions.

But let's just cut to the chase: If the Spanish were here getting gold hand-over-fist, why do md'rs in these regions, who are hitting these era sites HARD with detectors, NOT getting gold ? We see reales, buttons, adornments, etc... of the period turn up from the frontier mission sites . But ... no escudos to speak of. And the adornments (candle-stick holders, etc...) are copper and brass. Silver at the absolute most .

Oh, let me guess: bars of gold are indeed being found. But it's hush hush. Because of the IRS, thieves, cultural heritage, and claim-jumpers. Eh ?

 

[azdave35]

Am I the only one who saw a contradiction in this ?



versus:




and :




Ok, did anyone catch it ? The early birds got all the worms ? But lo & behold, examples of modern day rich ore ? Or Ore that was still there in 1880, WELL AFTER the Spanish era ? Please tell me someone else is seeing these blatant contradictions.

But let's just cut to the chase: If the Spanish were here getting gold hand-over-fist, why do md'rs in these regions, who are hitting these era sites HARD with detectors, NOT getting gold ? We see reales, buttons, adornments, etc... of the period turn up from the frontier mission sites . But ... no escudos to speak of. And the adornments (candle-stick holders, etc...) are copper and brass. Silver at the absolute most .

Oh, let me guess: bars of gold are indeed being found. But it's hush hush. Because of the IRS, thieves, cultural heritage, and claim-jumpers. Eh ?

probably because you suck at metal detecting...lol..if the spaniards would have had metal detectors there wouldn't even be any little chicken scratch trinkets for you to find...think about that

 

[Tom_in_CA]

probably because you suck at metal detecting...lol....

haha. Yup, that's the ticket. There must be something I'm doing wrong, because it's just all sorts of other conductors, but just not gold conductors. Ok. The next more proficient guy with a detector would, of course, .... get all the gold bars and escudos that you speak of. Right ?

 

[azdave35]

haha. Yup, that's the ticket. There must be something I'm doing wrong, because it's just all sorts of other conductors, but just not gold conductors. Ok. The next more proficient guy with a detector would, of course, .... get all the gold bars and escudos that you speak of. Right ?

who said anything about gold bars and escudos?.......i thought we were talking about hardrock deposits

 

[Tom_in_CA]

...i thought we were talking about hardrock deposits

Yes. We were. All those hardrock deposits which indisputably was refined into all the gold that was certain to have lined the pockets of the Spanish on the western frontier. Right ?

 

[azdave35]

Yes. We were. All those hardrock deposits which indisputably was refined into all the gold that was certain to have lined the pockets of the Spanish on the western frontier. Right ?

now you are starting to see the light...we'll get you smartened up yet