Cave of gold bars

[Oroblanco]

I see that others have already jumped in, so forgive the repetitions.

Firstly, friend Tom in CA, I would point out that it is rather odd that we have had a regular parade of Religious here in a treasure hunting forum, always leaping to the defense of the Jesuits against all such claims of treasure, mines and slaves. You and they are certainly welcome here, as we clearly have common interests and I would be the last one to even suggest that it is in any way improper. Yet it is rather odd, wouldn't you agree?

Next, and you have plenty of supporters here, the claim that "no large treasures are found" and yet this is not exactly true either. I see that Mike (Gollum) has already referenced it, so I won't repeat that one. But it is hardly the only example either. Silver was the main product of the southwest, not gold, and we even have a letter from the sainted father Kino complaining that a shipment of silver that he sent to Rome had somehow vanished in transit. 800 ounces, if memory serves, from the padre whom supposedly had no interest in mining whatsoever?

Further, we also have letters from a Jesuit padre stationed in what is now Arizona, in which he complains that he is not able to work the mines as he would wish, due to the hostile Indians. Other letters include requests for gold scales, mining tools, and an odd statement that despite living in "the silver mountains" he has very little silverware for eating.

Now I would suggest to find and read a study, published by the Franciscan Order in fact, titled The Wealth of the Jesuits in Mexico, 1767. In this study you will find an astonishing list of properties, including silver mines, which of course they were not supposed to be operating. One estimate of their wealth put it at the majority of wealth in Mexico at the time, to the point that it was threatening whether the Viceroyalty would even be able to continue to support itself!

And yes we have the skeptics whom will belittle even what is found to be undeniable, as with the smelter slag built into the very walls of San Xavier and Tumacacori missions, that what ever mining was done, was so trivial as to be little more than 'bling' for saddles. Yet one of the mines of the Jesuits in Arizona, namely the Santa Rita, when first discovered (again) was found to have had over 250,000 tons of rich silver ore already mined out and removed! That is much more than a 'little bling' my friend.

AS this is very much off topic, I would highly suggest to continue this discussion on another thread, which was begun some years ago and argued ad nauseum, but contains a great deal of the accumulated evidence of the Jesuit operations. Oh and one last tidbit, but I respectfully disagree, wholeheartedly, that the missions of Arizona are "not ornate". Please take a peek at some photos of San Xavier del Bac mission, Arizona, built by your own order in fact but on Jesuit foundations according to legend:
Photo-Gallery

and perhaps a peek at the smaller mission at Tumacacori:
https://www.nps.gov/tuma/index.htm

Other, smaller missions (visitas) were certainly not as ornate, and of course the statement that the Jesuits built their missions of adobe should mean they were nothing but mere mud huts, yet the descriptions given of these missions BY a Jesuit in the 1700s, is enlightening. This description is in that other thread, which is where this discussion really belongs so I will close with that link:
http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/jesuit-treasures/153540-jesuit-treasures-they-real.html

Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

 

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[Oroblanco]

Tom,

From my own research into Jesuit wealth, I have come to the same conclusions as you. I gave up dreaming of Jesuit treasures years ago. Mike has done a lot of personal research, but he is still, I think, a believer. Without a treasure being dug up, and authenticated, I doubt the issue will ever be settled.

Good posts!

Joe Ribaudo

I see that our years of debate, and all the evidence provided, has had NO effect whatsoever. Sometimes you surprise me Joe.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

now you are starting to see the light...we'll get you smartened up yet

correct. All that gold that .... despite me hunting such sites for 20+ yrs, can not find. But rest assured it's being found by the wheel barrel full, by folks well-versed in symbology, cryptograms, etc.... Right ? But naturally, we won't see any proofs, because of ...... well .. you know.... The IRS, thieves, cultural heritage, and claim-jumpers. Ok .

 

[azdave35]

correct. All that gold that .... despite me hunting such sites for 20+ yrs, can not find. But rest assured it's being found by the wheel barrel full, by folks well-versed in symbology, cryptograms, etc.... Right ? But naturally, we won't see any proofs, because of ...... well .. you know.... The IRS, thieves, cultural heritage, and claim-jumpers. Ok .

all the sites you hunted and never found no bars?... like maxwell smart used to say.."missed it by that much"...

 

[Tom_in_CA]

.... a regular parade of Religious here in a treasure hunting forum, always leaping to the defense of the Jesuits against all such claims of treasure, mines and slaves....

I have no religious horse in this race. Because I am a Protestant. That I am a history buff, is my horse in the race. I am not leaping to the defense the Jesuits for religious sake. This is a discussion about "treasure versus no treasure" . Where does history point ? Plain and simple. Hence, no, I don't see what is "odd" about this. This is a md'ing/Th'ing forum, is it not ? We discuss the pro's and con's of methods for it, right ? So I fail to see what's odd.

.... "no large treasures are found" and yet this is not exactly true either. I see that Mike (Gollum) has already referenced it, ...

Sorry, but I was Johnny-come-lately to this thread. Can you please refer me to the proof-in-the-pudding you allude to ? I would be more than happy to check it out.

..... . Silver was the main product of the southwest, not gold, ....

Really ? Not according to the tone of posts I'm reading here. Seems that gold bars are stacked to the ceiling everywhere.

.... 800 ounces, if memory serves, from the padre whom supposedly had no interest in mining whatsoever?

You are referring to Arizona @ early 1700's. If they mined silver there, and if it was in great quantities, and if it strictly went to the church coffers, so be it. What does this have to do with all the gold I'm told is certainly waiting for those that can descipher cryptic clues and solve ghost story riddles ?

.... One estimate of their wealth put it at the majority of wealth in Mexico at the time...

I confess to not living or hunting in those areas. I do know a fellow who moved to NM, and .... as a member of our hard-core CA mission era sites hunters, he hit some sites there. And he's found some reales and spanish coppers there. So too have I seen a TH'ing magazine article of a NM and AZ hunter who's made sport of hitting cellar holes, adobe ruins, pueblo sites, etc.. And has found LC's, busts, reales, etc.... No mention of all the gold I keep trying to question. But sure, it's because the persons who found it excluded it from their show and tell. Durned that IRS anyhow.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

all the sites you hunted and never found no bars?... like maxwell smart used to say.."missed it by that much"...

Let's clarify something (after I've read Oroblanco's posts) : Is this gold you guys speak of JUST in the AZ, NM, UT and TX type Spanish frontier ? Or do you believe that the CA missions also had their mines, gold production, riches, and slaves that worked mines, blah blah blah ?

If it's just AZ, NM, UT and TX Spanish frontier missions that you believe were riddled with riches, then sure: Maybe all those hunters are/were numb-nuts. And the remaining ones (like yourselves) who have indeed found gold, are simply staying hush hush (durned that IRS).

BUT IF YOU EXTEND THIS GOLD stuff to CA, then I will politely disagree. They dug and sifted missions here till they are blue in the face! NO GOLD. Oh, but let me guess: There is some sort of hush hush @ the finds that ..... left only the other dug artifacts to be displayed ? And that md'rs like myself have missed it by "this much" ? Seriously now.

 

[i am the horse]

Tom,




Thanks for the kind words.

This is where knowledge of history is so important. The Jesuit Order was suppressed in almost every country they operated in over the years. My main area of study is in the New World. Portugal kicked the Order out of all their land holdings worldwide in 1759. The French kicked the Order out of all their land holdings worldwide in 1764. The Spanish kicked the Order out of all their land holdings worldwide in 1767. The Kings of France and Portugal forced Pope Clement XIV to issue a Papal Brief entitled "Dominus Ac Redemptor Noster", which suppressed the Jesuits as an Order in July of 1773. They were only allowed to operate as Jesuits in Russia, Prussia, and Maryland until their restoration in 1814.

Joe has done his homework, but leaves out things that don't further his view. When confronted with the enormous find in Rio de Janeiro in 1891, we first hear its newspaper BS. It is also included in the Canada Law Review of 1892. He then likes to say "Well, that was in Brazil, we are talking about Pimeria Alta". Anyone who has studied Jesuit Suppressions Worldwide, knows they were suppressed from all those countries for mostly the same thing: Political Intrigues detrimental to the current governments (some were even involved at different levels in attempted assassinations as in England and Portugal). I am saying that Jesuits are Jesuits are Jesuits. They operate the same way everywhere they work.

When it comes to the Jesuit Order, history books are not the final word. Every history book I have ever read says that Padre Eusebio Francisco Kino SJ died of a fever in his Mission at Magdalena in 1711. I have a friend that has been documenting the history of the Seri Indians of Mexico. The Seri were/are a very warlike tribe that claim Tiburon Island in the Sea of Cortez as their homeland. The Spanish had the Franciscans and the Jesuits try and convert them to Catholicism. The Seri would not convert, so the Spanish put a bounty on Seri Scalps. That is why there are only about 80 or so Seris to this day. Part of Seri Tribal history is that they hated the way they were being treated by the Jesuits, so they poisoned Padre Kino. That is the source of his "fever".

The Jesuits were the largest slave holders in the New World. They had the largest Sugar Plantations in the world. They owned some of the largest herds of horses, cattle, and sheep in the New World.

Since the Thirteenth Century, it was stated clearly in every Royal Decree that "No Religiosos o Clerigos" were to work or own mines. The Jesuits themselves issued an Ecclesiastical Precept that no Jesuits were to work mines. They were not even supposed to show any knowledge of the mining arts in ANY WAY. If you think the Jesuits didn't own/work mines, then read Col. Poston's History of the Wandering Jew Mine (Silver/Lead/Galena). Read about the excavation of the Mission at Guevavi to see proof of smelting and bell casting. If you read about all the sicknesses at Guevavi, you will see they more closely resemble heavy metal poisoning (rather than smallpox).

Tired of typing, but maybe you will get my point. Read all the Bolton you want, but he was not the last word on Jesuits in the New World.

Mike

What one book would you recommend to read about the jesuits with their slave trade? Or about jesuits in general?

 

[azdave35]

Let's clarify something (after I've read Oroblanco's posts) : Is this gold you guys speak of JUST in the AZ, NM, UT and TX type Spanish frontier ? Or do you believe that the CA missions also had their mines, gold production, riches, and slaves that worked mines, blah blah blah ?

If it's just AZ, NM, UT and TX Spanish frontier missions that you believe were riddled with riches, then sure: Maybe all those hunters are/were numb-nuts. And the remaining ones (like yourselves) who have indeed found gold, are simply staying hush hush (durned that IRS).

BUT IF YOU EXTEND THIS GOLD stuff to CA, then I will politely disagree. They dug and sifted missions here till they are blue in the face! NO GOLD. Oh, but let me guess: There is some sort of hush hush @ the finds that ..... left only the other dug artifacts to be displayed ? And that md'rs like myself have missed it by "this much" ? Seriously now.

yep...you missed them thar gold bars by this much....actually i am in agreement with you about the missions..i've never heard of anyone finding huge amounts of treasure at a mission..besides..its bad ju-ju to desecrate a mission

 

[deducer]

Nope. I am not an expert I had just caught a passing glance at his date in reference to the Jesuits, and did not cross-check my material. I lead mostly 4th grade tours at the mission. So you can imagine that such nuances as this are not needed for that. I am also the token Protestant docent there, so .... I haven't studied to split hairs on this subject. Hence yes, I have not concerned myself with these dates, schools of clergy, etc...

BUT WHAT I AM AN EXPERT ON, and what I DO have "bragging rights" to sneer on, is: The caliber of finds that come from the missions. Not only have I hunted on, in, and around several of them, but I also hunted with a fellow who was hunting them back in the 1970s. Back in those days (before the era of archaeological sensitivities was full bore), he would just waltz right up, get permission, and go. And if he didn't get permission , then he'd just wait till mid-night and hop the fence. He has perhaps 300 reales. Some of his stories would make archies roll over in their graves.

And guess how many Escudos he racked up ? Zero. Oh sure, he has something like 11 gold coins so far, but none are Spanish or Mexican. If anyone deserved one, it was him.

So I consider myself qualified to talk on this subject from at least that angle. The question remains: If the Spanish missions here (regardless of who the clergy school was) was rolling in that much gold, why do we rarely ever find gold items ? Believe me: It's not for lack of getting the correct period targets !

Who on here has made any sort of claim that "Spanish missions" were rolling in gold?

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Who on here has made any sort of claim that "Spanish missions" were rolling in gold?

Go back through the 13 pages, read what the faithful have asserted. It's Jesuits, it's Spanish, and .... so forth. If you have "caves" of gold bars (the title of the thread), then that certainly sounds like someone was "rolling" in gold, eh ?

 

[gollum]

Tom,

It is understandable that you haven't found any Jesuit Wealth in twenty years of hunting California Missions. The California Missions were neither built nor operated by Jesuits (except for Baja). Fray Junipero Sera (Franciscan) was tasked with founding the California Missions in 1768, after the Jesuit Expulsion.

Since you are a late comer to this conversation, I recommend going to the Jesuit Treasures Section, and reading my initial post under "Jesuit Treasures - Are They Real?" I think you may be surprised.

Horse,

I recommend the same thing for you.

Mike

 

[Tom_in_CA]

.... The California Missions were neither built nor operated by Jesuits (except for Baja)....

Serra founded some of the Baja CA missions before coming to Alta CA. IN ANY CASE, I took your post to imply that the missions in general (aside from which school of clergy was in power at the time) were rich, rolling in gold, etc....

If you meant only those of an earlier era (Baja, NM, AZ, etc...), then my objection would still be the same: Where's the archaeological proof ? There are md'rs in those area who have racked up quite a count of period targets (in the same way that I have done @ our CA mission locations). And .... we're not seeing all this gold you speak of. Despite show & tells coming from the hobbyists in those areas.

But alas, I can anticipate the answer: They only show their silver, the copper, the buttons, etc... They can't show the gold bars, for fear of the IRS, thieves, cultural heritage issues, and claim-jumpers. And if I go to point out that guys have done show & tell on very valuable things before (even caches), you will say it's because all of those are small potatoes compared to "caves of gold bars" being discussed here. Right ? Hence it becomes an impenetrable web.

 

[sdcfia]

Continual circular arguments.

Those readers who haven't dug in their heels may find it instructive to take it upon themselves to educate themselves on the subject of Spanish mining on the Northern Frontier, say ca 1600-1850. Find out where the Northern Frontier was. Find out how the relationships, regulations and control methods between the Crown and Spanish mining contractors worked. Find out what it took for a contractor to put together a mining operation (money, experienced personnel, support logistics, security - all expenses he bore). Find out how and where the contractor found his prospective mining properties. Put away your treasure magazines and convince yourselves, as painful as it might be, what the truth of the matter is.

Spoiler: you'll find that by an incredibly huge margin that the early Spanish primarily mined silver in central and northern Mexico. There were way too many cheaper, closer, richer and easier targets in Mexico than to even think about the difficulties involved in exploring into North America. The same applies today. Were there any North American Spanish mining ventures? Yes, a few. In New Mexico, the San Pedro/Cerrillos/Ortiz area south of Santa Fe produced gold. It was a local project initiated and operated by Franciscans and Spanish out of Santa Fe. The same group discovered and recovered some precious metals (primarily placer) in the San Juan Mountains and upper Sangre de Cristo Range in Colorado. All close to home, operating out of Santa Fe. The Santa Rita mines in New Mexico produced millions of pounds of copper (and a lot of gold) for contractors for the Chihuahua coin mint. An easy opportunity. Yes, several silver deposits were noted by Spanish officials along the Camino Real, but no evidence exists that the deposits were exploited. There were some Spanish silver recoveries at or near the Arizona borderlands following the Jesuit invasion there.

That's about it, folks. You can cite plenty of rumors about rich Spanish mines "lost" all over the Southwest, complete with dozens of "Spanish fifth vaults containing stacks of gold bars", and if you want to believe this stuff - go for it. The truth is, business is business - the same then as now. Why venture so far, at such an expense for such slimmer pickings than what is readily available so close to home? It was silver, and the silver was in Mexico. Still is.

Later, after 1850, the Mexicans ruled Mexico, and by then the Southwest was more accessible, the game was easier and there were many more excursions into North America. The mining was cruder. They were looking primarily for placer. Most of the lode mining ventures were coyote holes, sometimes rich, mostly shallow. There was much, much more Mexican mining activity in North America during their short history than the Spanish ever accomplished. Are there still hidden or abandoned Mexican workings to be found? Yeah, probably. Are they fabulously rich? Who knows? After the Anglos ran the Mexicans out ca 1860s, a lot of the old Mexican prospects were likely rediscovered and worked. Hard to say. Are there big Mexican gold caches hidden all over the place? Why would there be - why would they leave it behind?

The Jesuits. In my opinion, the brothers operated modest silver mines in order to augment their pocket money for trade exchange and to be able to create some upscale bling for their missions. The treasure rumors of fabulous caches left behind - just waiting to be found - following their New World expulsion don't float my boat for one primary reason. If there were caches, it seems quite likely that they would have been recovered sometime in the last two hundred years by the Jesuits themselves. After all, we know that these guys have a reputation for being the best connected, smartest, most capable and cunning agents in any room. Why wouldn't they go gather up their eggs? Sorry, Mike, your explanation that these geniuses "forgot" where the loot was hidden, and that the bosses back home were never supplied the information prior to the expulsion, is a weak rationalization in my book. It seems to me that if the caches ever existed (debatable IMO), they are long gone.

Now, go ahead and jump all over me, since you know I'm wrong about all this. Or, just for s&g's, take the time to check up on what I've posted. Please, though, don't cite treasure magazines, sensational old newspaper adventure clippings or the "guarantees" of desert rats as your "evidence".

 

[azdave35]

Continual circular arguments.

Those readers who haven't dug in their heels may find it instructive to take it upon themselves to educate themselves on the subject of Spanish mining on the Northern Frontier, say ca 1600-1850. Find out where the Northern Frontier was. Find out how the relationships, regulations and control methods between the Crown and Spanish mining contractors worked. Find out what it took for a contractor to put together a mining operation (money, experienced personnel, support logistics, security - all expenses he bore). Find out how and where the contractor found his prospective mining properties. Put away your treasure magazines and convince yourselves, as painful as it might be, what the truth of the matter is.

Spoiler: you'll find that by an incredibly huge margin that the early Spanish primarily mined silver in central and northern Mexico. There were way too many cheaper, closer, richer and easier targets in Mexico than to even think about the difficulties involved in exploring into North America. The same applies today. Were there any North American Spanish mining ventures? Yes, a few. In New Mexico, the San Pedro/Cerrillos/Ortiz area south of Santa Fe produced gold. It was a local project initiated and operated by Franciscans and Spanish out of Santa Fe. The same group discovered and recovered some precious metals (primarily placer) in the San Juan Mountains and upper Sangre de Cristo Range in Colorado. All close to home, operating out of Santa Fe. The Santa Rita mines in New Mexico produced millions of pounds of copper (and a lot of gold) for contractors for the Chihuahua coin mint. An easy opportunity. Yes, several silver deposits were noted by Spanish officials along the Camino Real, but no evidence exists that the deposits were exploited. There were some Spanish silver recoveries at or near the Arizona borderlands following the Jesuit invasion there.

That's about it, folks. You can cite plenty of rumors about rich Spanish mines "lost" all over the Southwest, complete with dozens of "Spanish fifth vaults containing stacks of gold bars", and if you want to believe this stuff - go for it. The truth is, business is business - the same then as now. Why venture so far, at such an expense for such slimmer pickings than what is readily available so close to home? It was silver, and the silver was in Mexico. Still is.

Later, after 1850, the Mexicans ruled Mexico, and by then the Southwest was more accessible, the game was easier and there were many more excursions into North America. The mining was cruder. They were looking primarily for placer. Most of the lode mining ventures were coyote holes, sometimes rich, mostly shallow. There was much, much more Mexican mining activity in North America during their short history than the Spanish ever accomplished. Are there still hidden or abandoned Mexican workings to be found? Yeah, probably. Are they fabulously rich? Who knows? After the Anglos ran the Mexicans out ca 1860s, a lot of the old Mexican prospects were likely rediscovered and worked. Hard to say. Are there big Mexican gold caches hidden all over the place? Why would there be - why would they leave it behind?

The Jesuits. In my opinion, the brothers operated modest silver mines in order to augment their pocket money for trade exchange and to be able to create some upscale bling for their missions. The treasure rumors of fabulous caches left behind - just waiting to be found - following their New World expulsion don't float my boat for one primary reason. If there were caches, it seems quite likely that they would have been recovered sometime in the last two hundred years by the Jesuits themselves. After all, we know that these guys have a reputation for being the best connected, smartest, most capable and cunning agents in any room. Why wouldn't they go gather up their eggs? Sorry, Mike, your explanation that these geniuses "forgot" where the loot was hidden, and that the bosses back home were never supplied the information prior to the expulsion, is a weak rationalization in my book. It seems to me that if the caches ever existed (debatable IMO), they are long gone.

Now, go ahead and jump all over me, since you know I'm wrong about all this. Or, just for s&g's, take the time to check up on what I've posted. Please, though, don't cite treasure magazines, sensational old newspaper adventure clippings or the "guarantees" of desert rats as your "evidence".

sdcfia...do you plan on coming to the rendezvous this year?

 

[Tom_in_CA]

... take it upon themselves to educate themselves on the subject of Spanish mining on the Northern Frontier, say ca 1600-1850. ..... just for s&g's, take the time to check up on what I've posted....

sdcfia, you have been more than fair in this dialogue. You have been more than a good sport. Thanx for taking time to read what I wrote. And I assure you I've read what you wrote.

Regarding your quote above: I have done all those things. The problem is, that anyone who comes to a different conclusion, will be accused of "not having looked into it".

But think of it: Why can't the same thing be said in reverse ? What if I claimed that your having failed to agree with me, means you haven't tried it, studied it properly, etc.... ?

You guys are fascinating. A real study into the psychology. I went to Mexico in the early 1990's to search for "fabulous treasure caches" with "stories that sounded seeoo compelling". And all the stories were indeed grounded in names, dates, places , etc... that someone could "look up to verify". So the promoter (my host who took me down there), would have the same exact reaction as you: To simply challenge me to look it up, check the data, keep an open mind, etc... So I did. It turned out to be all telephone game and situations with "more plausible explanations". We had fun though, doing normal coin-shooting around old ruins.

But the experience got me fascinated with the treasure mindset. Ie.: the legends and lore that people will swear by till their dying day. Hence my occasional probe into the mindset of the faithful. Want to see what makes them tick. How do they react to counter persuasion and data ?

It's been a great dialogue. Thanx for all your input. But I'm withdrawing from this thread now. Have to get back to work. Got work at work to do. Got some ghost town and stage stop hunts coming up this weekend. Yeah yeah, small potatoes individual seateds and such. I might dig a cache if I be sure to dig all the hubcap signals.

 

[azdave35]

sdcfia, you have been more than fair in this dialogue. You have been more than a good sport. Thanx for taking time to read what I wrote. And I assure you I've read what you wrote.

Regarding your quote above: I have done all those things. The problem is, that anyone who comes to a different conclusion, will be accused of "not having looked into it".

But think of it: Why can't the same thing be said in reverse ? What if I claimed that your having failed to agree with me, means you haven't tried it, studied it properly, etc.... ?

You guys are fascinating. A real study into the psychology. I went to Mexico in the early 1990's to search for "fabulous treasure caches" with "stories that sounded seeoo compelling". And all the stories were indeed grounded in names, dates, places , etc... that someone could "look up to verify". So the promoter (my host who took me down there), would have the same exact reaction as you: To simply challenge me to look it up, check the data, keep an open mind, etc... So I did. It turned out to be all telephone game and situations with "more plausible explanations". We had fun though, doing normal coin-shooting around old ruins.

But the experience got me fascinated with the treasure mindset. Ie.: the legends and lore that people will swear by till their dying day. Hence my occasional probe into the mindset of the faithful. Want to see what makes them tick. How do they react to counter persuasion and data ?

It's been a great dialogue. Thanx for all your input. But I'm withdrawing from this thread now. Have to get back to work. Got work at work to do. Got some ghost town and stage stop hunts coming up this weekend. Yeah yeah, small potatoes individual seateds and such. I might dig a cache if I be sure to dig all the hubcap signals.

so now you are a psychologist ?....you are truly a man that wears many hats....a real know it all.....thank you for gracing us with your presence...we bow to you ...your royal highness

 

[P.ALLEN]

That Honeycomb is natural, water or wind formed.

 

[gollum]

Serra founded some of the Baja CA missions before coming to Alta CA. IN ANY CASE, I took your post to imply that the missions in general (aside from which school of clergy was in power at the time) were rich, rolling in gold, etc....

If you meant only those of an earlier era (Baja, NM, AZ, etc...), then my objection would still be the same: Where's the archaeological proof ? There are md'rs in those area who have racked up quite a count of period targets (in the same way that I have done @ our CA mission locations). And .... we're not seeing all this gold you speak of. Despite show & tells coming from the hobbyists in those areas.

But alas, I can anticipate the answer: They only show their silver, the copper, the buttons, etc... They can't show the gold bars, for fear of the IRS, thieves, cultural heritage issues, and claim-jumpers. And if I go to point out that guys have done show & tell on very valuable things before (even caches), you will say it's because all of those are small potatoes compared to "caves of gold bars" being discussed here. Right ? Hence it becomes an impenetrable web.

Tom,

I can't speak intelligently about what the Franciscans or Dominicans did. As I have stated previously, my main field of study are Colonial Era Jesuits. They are the ones most of the Treasure Stories are based on.

If you read the 82 pounds of gold bars story, look closely at the picture of the flat rock with the cross on it. Notice there is a heart inscribed under the cross. THAT is the Sacred Heart of Christ. A Jesuit Symbol. The bars recovered were all either 2" x 2" or 2" x 4". The cross and "V" is a Jesuit Symbol as well. The fact that the key to locating the buried bars was the large rock adjacent to the Cross/Heart Rock. The lines and dots are Mayan Numbers. When I first read the story (before meeting Ron), I thought that was the way to prove the story as BS, as I had not heard of Jesuits working anywhere near the Yucatan Peninsula (where they would have learned about Mayan Numbers). After some research, it turns out that indeed, the Jesuits did work in the Yucatan, converting what was left of the Mayan Civilization to Catholicism.

Related to that is the recovery by Chuck Kenworthy of 1028 2.5 pound silver bars about 5 miles from the site of the 82 pounds of gold bars. The silver bars prove beyond ANY guessing they are Jesuit in origin. Since I am in Arizona, and my desktop and most hard drives are in storage in Los Angeles, I have to describe things to you. These silver bars are roughly rectangular. One one side (from the top) PADRE SAETA (next line) two vertical lines of dots, and in between them a Cross above an "M" (next line)1695 (next line) a cross above a "V" EXPLANATION: Father Javier Saeta SJ was a Jesuit Missionary Priest, the two lines of dots look like a grave, and the cross above an "M" look to represent "MARTYR" 1695 is a date = Father Javier Saeta was Martyred at his Mission at Caborca during a Pima Uprising in the year 1695. Not any doubt of a Jesuit Origin is there?


Not certain why you want to parse everything down to strictly "GOLD BARS"? Jesuits had a LOT of wealth from many sources. For the sake of argument, lets leave out mines. Sales of livestock and foodstuffs. Buying and selling land and buildings. Largest sugar plantations in the New World. Dont forget how the Church gets much of its wealth today= Tithing and Wills. THAT would be a great source of wealth.

As for slaves, I was not speaking about servants (majordomos) or indentured servitude. I am talking about (for example) Jesuits in Bolivia buying African Slaves right off the boat at Caracas, Venezuela. I have shown where two large silver ingots recovered from (possibly) the Atocha, are marked with the Jesuit Cross above a "V". The other sigla on both ingots are from a well known slave trader. The way the siglas are on the ingots look like the slave trader was the last owner, which means the previous owner used them to buy slaves. The previous owners were Jesuits. My information also comes from the renowned Jesuit Historian at Georgetown University, Father John O'Malley SJ. He is a Jesuit, and is the person that told me originally about the Pope using slaves to man the Papal Barge in Rome.

Mike

 

[markmar]

Tom in Ca

Your " small potatoes " could be valuable , enough to be from In Da Farm

 

[cactusjumper]

Mike,

Hope all is well with you.

"My information also comes from the renowned Jesuit Historian at Georgetown University, Father John O'Malley SJ. He is a Jesuit, and is the person that told me originally about the Pope using slaves to man the Papal Barge in Rome."

Your statement only deals with the Pope, Slaves and the Papal Barge. Father O'Malley will not comment on Jesuit mining or treasure in the Southwest, as he has not studied/researched that area. The most positive thing he has told me in that regard, is that it's possible that some Jesuits could have been involved it some kind of mining. We, of course, all know they were........(Some)

In archaeology, all new extraordinary finds must be examined and authenticated by the finders peers in that field. In that process many, not all, are proven to be frauds. In the Jesuit treasure finds, the artifacts are never authenticated by experts. There are claims of such authentication, but they end up being just a story.

As you all know, I was a firm believer in Jesuit treasure. It took many years of research to dissuade me of that notion. Having said that, I am still open to the possibility. It will take more than a good story to put me back in the believer column.

Take care,

Joe