Celt or Adze?

[catherine1]

I found this over the weekend. And was reading a recent post about the subject. I have found quite a collection of them at my site. And I gave the Grim Reaper one a few weeks ago. Its 3 inches and worked all the way around on both sides. However this is the first one I found with a clog shoe profile. Thanks in advance.

 

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[theviking]

In North America these types of tools have been made for thousands of years by countless individuals, probably modified countless different ways for specific needs. Not every piece fits nicely into a separate category. It looks like an exhausted, or possibly salvaged Adze turned into a square knife type tool. As tomclark would say "boom"

 

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[GatorBoy]

The function is what sets all of them apart. Even to this day. Think of how a chisel is shaped... Think of what it does.. It removes wood. Beveled on one side .
Now think of an axe or a hatchet think of what they do.. they chop through wood.. beveled from both sides. You can smack a nail with either one of those however that does not determine what we call them. The act of woodworking has not changed.. neither has the basic form of the hand tools. It doesn't have to be any more complicated than that. People try to play mad scientist with stone for some reason.
A drill still looks like a drill.. a gouge still looks like a gouge..they still make adze tools to this day.. still the same.
Now I see you removed your entire last post.

 

[flintmel]

Pics

Pics of celt, adze, gouge
These are ground stone but depict what GTP was saying
Notice the bits of these tools, celt has staight bit, adze slightly curved bit, gouge deep long channel

 

[GatorBoy]

That's what I said from the beginning. Nice pieces.

 

[Charl]

Not sure I can ID the piece that started the thread, but there has been some not quite accurate info conveyed and perhaps I can clarify, speaking of ground stone adze and gouges only. Both will have concave leading edges or bits. Channels are a whole different thing. Not all adze have channels, so the length of such cannot be how gouges and adze are distinguished. Also, not all gouges have a full channel. Here are a couple adze. The first has no channel at all. Looking at the outline of the beveled leading edge in the third photo, it looks quite similar to the first photo of the piece that began this thread, and I can understand seeing that piece as an adze based on the bit outline in the first photo. IMHO. I don't know if it is, but I can understand the call. The double grooved adze has only the shallowest of short channels. It is not accurate to say both adze and gouges have channels and that what distinguishes them is there length. Not so. They are very similar and related tool forms, though, and it can be a tough call whether gouge or adze in some examples I've seen.

 

[Charl]

Not all gouges will have full length channels, some do, some don't. As with the adze, the bit will appear concave when looked at straight on. The link from Bennett was good and flintmel did a good job showing the difference in leading edge looked at head on on a celt, adze, and gouge.

 

[Get-the-point]

Thanks for posting those charl. the main issue was they were being called adzes and I do not believe they are. When explaining the difference between adze and gouge, I explained the fact that the channel for a gouge usually runs the whole way down the artifact. I stated the adze sometimes has a small channel not all the time. The statement was made that the first artifact was a adze and I believe it is a square knife. It began the pecking match. My info stayed the same with regards to it. The fact is adzes do have a concave blade bit Celts don't and those items posted do not have any bit of that. Yet I was told I was wrong, and several other choice statements. My belief is that the first is a square knife and the last three, two of them are Celts and the Sonora one I believe is possibly a scraper. Jmo and I'm sticking to it.

 

[GatorBoy]

I will buy you a beer.

 

[GatorBoy]

Look how much information came out on this thread.... Later Chris.

 

[Charl]

If it were an adze, the leading edge would be on the left in the very first photo. Without seeing that edge head on, I don't really know. I just thought it was a bit thick for a knife. Its' outline reminded me a little of this adze....

 

[Get-the-point]

Charl you may want to blow up the pictures of the first one. In the first and last the bit is centered both sides. Not beveled like your example. I have blown up all the pictures and I am sticking to my guns on this one. Charl if you blow up the pictures you will see it. Look close at the blade in all of the pictures of the first artifact. I do not see beveling or a concave. I see a hafting channel on the piece.

 

[Tnmountains]

Stop the bickering. I can read every deleted and edited post and time of edit. We can disagree and have good discussion but the bickering stops on Catherines1 thread. Good information is going to be lost if we can not keep the personal attacks out of it.

People are reporting this post FYI.

http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/north-american-artifacts/323716-artifact-board-code-ethics.html

 

[Tnmountains]

I actually took some pics of the bits. But was not able to fit them into the post. The rocks with the flat bottom seem to be adze. And the ones worked on both sides tools or celts. I would like to see some larger flint celts. Or these could be small flint hoes. They are all woodland from my forensic find scenario. If anyone has found anything similar please post them. Thanks.

Ok here are some similar ones I found. Nothing special.Some are notched on the back for possible hafting and some have rough bits on each end. Some are razor sharp some are worn out and discarded.

 

[GatorBoy]

A mix

 

[Tnmountains]

Thread is back open for discussion and civil debate at the request of members. Thanks!

 

[GatorBoy]

Well that's different.
Good job with that other one.....
What's behind door number three?

 

[Get-the-point]

This is a moot point now.