CIRCA 1900 FRAMED BASEBALL PICTURE

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

"Play Ball"

I went to a swap meet recently and purchased an old, framed baseball player photo that I paid $10.00 for. I have already done quite a bit of research on it that can best be summed up with the following which is how I came up with a date of circa 1900 ... (Also see pictures).

1. The seller said he found it in a box of other junk and didn't know anything about it.
2. The frame is made of tin ~ Appears Victorian ~ Hand painted floral ~ Fold-out standee on back.
3. The frame is oval and measures 3 1/2" x 2 1/2"
4. The photo is sepa colored (brownish) and was developed in an oval shape then cut to fit.

5. Regarding the uniform ...

Uniform Parts:
National Baseball Hall of Fame - Dressed to the Nines - Parts of the Uniform

Caps - 1888 - Spalding:
National Baseball Hall of Fame - Dressed to the Nines - Parts of the Uniform

Shoes - 1883 - Spalding: National Baseball Hall of Fame - Dressed to the Nines - Parts of the Uniform

Uniform/Collar - Last Used 1906
National Baseball Hall of Fame - Dressed to the Nines - Parts of the Uniform

Uniform/Beltless - First Used circa 1910
National Baseball Hall of Fame - Dressed to the Nines - Parts of the Uniform

Earliest Numbering of Jerseys - 1907-09
National Baseball Hall of Fame - Dressed to the Nines - Parts of the Uniform

Baseball History - First Major Leagues 1871 thru 1875
History of baseball in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Grain Elevators: Grain Elevators -- History

Pictures, etc ...


1. Framed Photo.

2. Photo Only.

3. Frame and Back. (Glass Not Shown).

4. Cropped Photo. I cannot read the words on the grain elevator.

Shoes from above link ~ He appears to be wearing #1 ~ Solid black high top. Ad is from 1883 Spalding catalog.

Cap ~ Appears to be either #11 or #19 ~ Mulit-sectioned top part. Ad is from 1888 Spalding catalog. I can't tell in my photo if the player is wearing a short or a long bill cap.

Uniform Pants/Beltless ~ Player in my photo is wearing a belt. Belts were last used on uniforms around 1910. This picture is the earliest known example that shows a beltless player and is dated 1913. It is said that prior to 1913 most players wore belts until they were discouraged and possibly even banned because defensive players would sometimes grab hold of the belt to stop an advancing runner.


Footnotes:

1. The Major Leagues were first introduced around 1871 to 1875.
2. Uniform numbering was first introduced in Major Leagues around 1907-1909. (My player has no visible number on his jersey.
3. Uniform "Collars" were last used around 1906. My player's jersey appears to have a collar.

Bottom Line Questions ...

1. Can you think of anything I missed?
2. do you agree with the circa 1900 date?
3. Do you think the player is ... Hometown Team ~ Farm/Minor League ~ Major League?
4. Can you think of any way to identify the location?
5. And what about the grain elevetor? Any clues there? Midwest?

6. And most important of all, do you happen to recognize The Player?

Thanks in advance for your time and interest. I realize I am asking some tough questions that may be impossible to answer, but I thought it would be fun anyway because Baseball season is upon us and I know there are a lot of fans out there like myself.

Sodabottlebob

 

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[SODABOTTLEBOB]

Big Cy ~

Please don't get too discouraged. If you click back to my opening page you will see where I did a ton of research on my photo before bringing it to TreasureNet. Initially I was just going to skip Tnet and submit inquires straight to the baseball experts like I am now. But because I enjoy this site so much and like "sharing" with fellow members, that's why I posted it here first. As for value, sure, it will be nice if it turns out that my photo has some collectible interest and value, but that is the last thing on my mind at the moment. I'm more of a collector (pack rat) than I am a seller. I only mention this because it might explain what you referred to when you said there seems to be some lost interest in this website, which I haven't noticed myself. It's the arguing that turns me off, not unsolved mysteries like this one. Thanks for your interest and numerous, helpful contributions. They are very much appreciated. Without you Tnet wouldn't be what it is today. Right now I'm just waiting and hoping to hear back from some of the inquires I sent. I'm sure one of them will have an answer and solve this thing once and for all.

Hang in there.

Bob

PS ~

I'm not saying there is a lot of arguing that goes on here at Tnet, because there's not. But we all know that it does occur ocassionally. I sometimes tap into other chat forums, which there are zillions of, but if I detect one hint of bickering going on, I click out of it faster than a speeding bullet.

 

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[cw0909]

i just skimmed the last 3pgs,so maybe the research links, may be no good now
are you still thinking, your pic is 1890-1905,the 1st 2 links are a source of teams
in minor league,and a link for researching minor ball pks,the last link,is loaded
with research info,this wknd i should have some time to look into some of the
ball pks,and the other stuff
1900 Minor League Baseball League Encyclopedia
1900 Minor League Baseball League Encyclopedia - Baseball-Reference.com
find a yr Minor League Baseball History
Minor League Baseball History - Baseball-Reference.com
Minor League Ballparks links,just stats no img,just leads to look into
Minor League Ballpark History - Baseball-Reference.com
have you tried this site
The Society for American Baseball Research
The SABR Story | SABR
from The Society for American Baseball Research pg, Research | SABR
i searched the Periodical, Book and Other Resource Titles,under Magazines
in Baseball Magazine (1908-1920) and got this list,ill help browse it over the wknd
Search Results: : Journal/Book Title: Baseball Magazine

 

[Franklin]

Sorry fellows I haven't been on the computer since early morning. I will try to send larger pictures. You can save the pictures I posted and enlarge them with software for photos. But anyway I will give it a try.

Sorry this is as large as I can show with any definition. I was wrong about the State------It is Minn. for Minnesota. And the town starts with either "Mil" or "Wil" and ending what appears a "Y" Right behind the batters back above the belt is 1888 and below is No.6 It also has either SBA on the top of the mill above the town name or either SAA

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Big Cy ~

Please don't get too discouraged. If you click back to my opening page you will see where I did a ton of research on my photo before bringing it to TreasureNet. Initially I was just going to skip Tnet and submit inquires straight to the baseball experts like I am now. But because I enjoy this site so much and like "sharing" with fellow members, that's why I posted it here first. As for value, sure, it will be nice if it turns out that my photo has some collectible interest and value, but that is the last thing on my mind at the moment. I'm more of a collector (pack rat) than I am a seller. I only mention this because it might explain what you referred to when you said there seems to be some lost interest in this website, which I haven't noticed myself. It's the arguing that turns me off, not unsolved mysteries like this one. Thanks for your interest and numerous, helpful contributions. They are very much appreciated. Without you Tnet wouldn't be what it is today. Right now I'm just waiting and hoping to hear back from some of the inquires I sent. I'm sure one of them will have an answer and solve this thing once and for all.

Hang in there.

Bob

PS ~

I'm not saying there is a lot of arguing that goes on here at Tnet, because there's not. But we all know that it does occur ocassionally. I sometimes tap into other chat forums, which there are zillions of, but if I detect one hint of bickering going on, I click out of it faster than a speeding bullet.

I wasnt referring to just this post and I certainly wasnt referring to anything you posted.. I was referring to in general the past month. Some of the expert opinions lately seem to hurt TNs credibility. Its OK to guess but some of the observations and claims this past month really make me wonder. I am NOT referring to anything you said or did.

And I was not at all referring to the value of this item. I happen to think it has value but I have no idea how much. And yes you are absolutely correct that you never claimed it was valuable. But it was recently a few clumps of rust were claimed as Roman. And yes there has been a lot of arguing, myself involved. The moderator needs to shut it down quicker maybe.

I thought participation was down because you have no takers on the contest and some of the other threads have no replys at all, but maybe its just my imagination..

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Sorry fellows I haven't been on the computer since early morning. I will try to send larger pictures. You can save the pictures I posted and enlarge them with software for photos. But anyway I will give it a try.View attachment 634400

Sorry this is as large as I can show with any definition. I was wrong about the State------It is Minn. for Minnesota. And the town starts with either "Mil" or "Wil" and ending what appears a "Y" Right behind the batters back above the belt is 1888 and below is No.6 It also has either SBA on the top of the mill above the town name or either SAA

Thanks for posting. I am hoping you can explain more.

Bob has the original, and he sees nothing at all that you speak of, even under magnification. And I cant see anything either and I wont play along.

Can you make some red marks with paint what you are visioning?? ....especially the location marks on the backside?

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

cw0909 ~

Some of those sites I have tapped into and some not. I'm at the point of contacting as many baseball experts as I can via email inquiries. Some of the links you listed will help. Currently I'm hoping to establish a solid date of the uniform itself, if that's even possible, which I believe it is. I just need to find the right person. Once I get a good date, say within ten years or so, then I will be able to move on from there and start looking at specifics like leagues, etc. I guess what I'm hoping is for someone to come along and say ...

"Bob, I am a baseball historian and expert and I guarantee you 100% that the uniform pictured in your photo is from the years ... "

So what I really need at the moment is for someone to finish that sentence for me with a workable date.

Franklin is trying, but I can't quite follow everything he's saying, nor see what he sees just yet. Hopefully all of the pieces to the puzzle will come together soon.

Thanks.

Bob

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

i just skimmed the last 3pgs,so maybe the research links, may be no good now
are you still thinking, your pic is 1890-1905,

It gets tough when the threads get long. The longer it gets the harder it is too follow. Most people just dont have that much time to read everything.

To sum it all up, I think we have it dated 1870-1890. We are (I am) basing this on the Spalding cap that was unpopular at the time for organized baseball but used by Horse Jockeys that were mostly black.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Franklin, I realize you are trying to help and Im sure Bob appreciates it but can you explain why you are the only person that can see these words?

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Spalding sold this baseball cap in 1888. I cannot find this cap in the 1890s and we have not been able to find it at all on any baseball player of any year, only Jockeys. I believe Bob has even offered a reward or prize. The Spalding site said this cap design was unpopular for baseball and an expert said it wasnt used in the Major Leagues..

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

Franklin ~

I'm no photo expert and have limited talents with photo gallery alterations. And although I do not see any of the words you claim to see, I do see what "might" be Purina at the very bottom. I'm not sure if you can see it in the altered image bellow, but you might. Please Click on it to enlarge and examine closely. If not one person among us sees what looks like Purina, then I give up. Its the best I can come up with.

Bob

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

I am by no means a photo expert either and Im hoping Franklin can teach us something. So far Im not seeing it but maybe Im looking in the wrong spot. Did you see anything on the back, Bob?



At lot of people make a lot of claims and for obvious reasons proof is needed. We are the "show me" forum lol. And I hope Franklin can show us.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Franklin ~

I'm no photo expert and have limited talents with photo gallery alterations. And although I do not see any of the words you claim to see, I do see what "might" be Purina at the very bottom. I'm not sure if you can see it in the altered image bellow, but you might. Please Click on it to enlarge and examine closely. If not one person among us sees what looks like Purina, then I give up. Its the best I can come up with.

Bob

View attachment 634403

Can you place a red arrow by it?

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

I see some kind of large symbol on the very top that looks like an M. Maybe Im way behind but what do you make of it?

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

I'm not kidding, I see Purina ... directly to the right of the red arrow. Maybe it doesn't show up here all that well, but it does in my photo gallery. Please, somebody, tell me you see it, too. I've already looked on the internet and the word Purina was common on grain elevators and commercial farm buildings.

Bob

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Maybe you should concentate on the lettering on the back.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

I'm not kidding, I see Purina ... directly to the right of the red arrow. Maybe it doesn't show up here all that well, but it does in my photo gallery. Please, somebody, tell me you see it, too. I've already looked on the internet and the word Purina was common on grain elevators and commercial farm buildings.

Bob

View attachment 634405

OK I thought thats what you guys were looking at. I can see Purina but I can also see whatever I imagine. Just not enough resolution. Did you take the picture at your highest resolution setting?

I would like to see Franklin explain the backside or a screenshot. Thats the part most baffling to me.

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

Maybe you should concentate on the lettering on the back.

What lettering on the back? There is no visible (even with a magnifying glass) lettering on the back of the photo or the frame backing.

Bob

PS ~ I did the alteration in my photo gallery and not with my camera. I tried with my camera's close up setting but it wouldn't focus properly enough to read.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

What lettering on the back? There is no visible (even with a magnifying glass) lettering on the back of the photo or the frame backing.

Bob

Franklin says there is and Im sure you would like to give him a chance to explain. I would like to hear his explanation. Franklin could make an arrow just like you did.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

I dont know what photo gallery is but do you have a scanner? Put the photo on the scanner set to the highest possible resolution. It will scan slow but that should be the best image..

 

[Franklin]

OK I thought thats what you guys were looking at. I can see Purina but I can also see whatever I imagine. Just not enough resolution. Did you take the picture at your highest resolution setting?

I would like to see Franklin explain the backside or a screenshot. Thats the part most baffling to me.

Your arrow is pointing to 1888 and just below that is No. 6 The SAA is at the very top of the mill and below it is the name of the town, Wil----y, Minn but I have been unable to find this town there is a Wilona or something to that effect that had a baseball team in the 1880's It definitely says MINN and the other things I was saying. Most of that is just behind the baseball cap at the top of the mill.

Here is the back of the frame best I could show it says "Vanquest" "350 W" Then TRO that's all I can see besides the XxK