CIRCA 1900 FRAMED BASEBALL PICTURE

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

"Play Ball"

I went to a swap meet recently and purchased an old, framed baseball player photo that I paid $10.00 for. I have already done quite a bit of research on it that can best be summed up with the following which is how I came up with a date of circa 1900 ... (Also see pictures).

1. The seller said he found it in a box of other junk and didn't know anything about it.
2. The frame is made of tin ~ Appears Victorian ~ Hand painted floral ~ Fold-out standee on back.
3. The frame is oval and measures 3 1/2" x 2 1/2"
4. The photo is sepa colored (brownish) and was developed in an oval shape then cut to fit.

5. Regarding the uniform ...

Uniform Parts:
National Baseball Hall of Fame - Dressed to the Nines - Parts of the Uniform

Caps - 1888 - Spalding:
National Baseball Hall of Fame - Dressed to the Nines - Parts of the Uniform

Shoes - 1883 - Spalding: National Baseball Hall of Fame - Dressed to the Nines - Parts of the Uniform

Uniform/Collar - Last Used 1906
National Baseball Hall of Fame - Dressed to the Nines - Parts of the Uniform

Uniform/Beltless - First Used circa 1910
National Baseball Hall of Fame - Dressed to the Nines - Parts of the Uniform

Earliest Numbering of Jerseys - 1907-09
National Baseball Hall of Fame - Dressed to the Nines - Parts of the Uniform

Baseball History - First Major Leagues 1871 thru 1875
History of baseball in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Grain Elevators: Grain Elevators -- History

Pictures, etc ...


1. Framed Photo.

2. Photo Only.

3. Frame and Back. (Glass Not Shown).

4. Cropped Photo. I cannot read the words on the grain elevator.

Shoes from above link ~ He appears to be wearing #1 ~ Solid black high top. Ad is from 1883 Spalding catalog.

Cap ~ Appears to be either #11 or #19 ~ Mulit-sectioned top part. Ad is from 1888 Spalding catalog. I can't tell in my photo if the player is wearing a short or a long bill cap.

Uniform Pants/Beltless ~ Player in my photo is wearing a belt. Belts were last used on uniforms around 1910. This picture is the earliest known example that shows a beltless player and is dated 1913. It is said that prior to 1913 most players wore belts until they were discouraged and possibly even banned because defensive players would sometimes grab hold of the belt to stop an advancing runner.


Footnotes:

1. The Major Leagues were first introduced around 1871 to 1875.
2. Uniform numbering was first introduced in Major Leagues around 1907-1909. (My player has no visible number on his jersey.
3. Uniform "Collars" were last used around 1906. My player's jersey appears to have a collar.

Bottom Line Questions ...

1. Can you think of anything I missed?
2. do you agree with the circa 1900 date?
3. Do you think the player is ... Hometown Team ~ Farm/Minor League ~ Major League?
4. Can you think of any way to identify the location?
5. And what about the grain elevetor? Any clues there? Midwest?

6. And most important of all, do you happen to recognize The Player?

Thanks in advance for your time and interest. I realize I am asking some tough questions that may be impossible to answer, but I thought it would be fun anyway because Baseball season is upon us and I know there are a lot of fans out there like myself.

Sodabottlebob

 

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[SODABOTTLEBOB]

No I can actually see what I posted. By the Ed. most likely means edited for the newspaper. They could have edited an older photograph of 5-8-1883 or this date could be the date the player was born or the date of the picture when it was taken. Above the name CALDWELL on the back is the word "Vanquest" I don't know what that means?

Can you not see the writing on the picture I posted. The print is from bottom to top around the left side of the baseball player.

On the very top of the mill doesn't it say, "SBA" most likely Southern Baseball Association. Beneath that is "Montgomery, Texas" I believe the photo was taken at Mitchell Baseball Field Aurora, Nebraska. Look at the photo of the field. Also at the very bottom of the mill is something like "financial" below this is the date 1888 and below that is the number of the mill-----No. 6View attachment 634243View attachment 634244

Franklin ~

You definitely have my attention - and yet at the same time I am definitely confused. I have examined the photo closely with a powerful magnifying glass, as well as super-zoomed it in my photo gallery. I cannot see a single one of the things you mentioned.

Questions:

1. Are you seeing that stuff with the naked eye or with magnification?
2. You referred to information on the "back." What "back" are you referring to? I never
posted a picture of the back.
3. If it says Montgomery, Texas on the grain elevator, then why would the field be in
Aurora, Nebraska?
4. 1888 to 1925 is a span of 37 years. How do you explain this? Are you suggesting the
player is 37 years old, or what?

Please help us out here by clarifying your claims. I'm sure I'm not the only one who is confused.

Thanks a lot.

Bob

 

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[SODABOTTLEBOB]

Clue No.4 ...

De Witt's

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

Clue No.5 ...

Birchard Austin Hayes

 

[Franklin]

I have ways to work on photos not only magnification but everything else. 2. Information was on the back of the frame. 3. The grain mill says Montgomery, Texas because that was the headquarters where the league was started, it says SBA above it. The grain mills were used as billboards. The grain mill could have been in Montgomery, Texas but the one in Aurora, Nebraska was most similar and in the same league. 4. As I said the old mill was like a billboard you know how long out-dated advertising sometimes remains. Also the photgraph you have could have been taken in 1888 as that was within a few years of when the league started. Also the back may be 5-8-1888 instead of 1883 as the last cipher was hard to make out as it was a pencil tracing on the back of the frame. The date 1925 had Ed. after it meaning Edited for the Southwest News and the No. I gave is correct also. That is a number placed on photos for references when they place them in a newspaper. If you could find old copies of the newspaper you most likely could find your photo by the Number.

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

I have ways to work on photos not only magnification but everything else. 2. Information was on the back of the frame. 3. The grain mill says Montgomery, Texas because that was the headquarters where the league was started, it says SBA above it. The grain mills were used as billboards. The grain mill could have been in Montgomery, Texas but the one in Aurora, Nebraska was most similar and in the same league. 4. As I said the old mill was like a billboard you know how long out-dated advertising sometimes remains. Also the photgraph you have could have been taken in 1888 as that was within a few years of when the league started. Also the back may be 5-8-1888 instead of 1883 as the last cipher was hard to make out as it was a pencil tracing on the back of the frame. The date 1925 had Ed. after it meaning Edited for the Southwest News and the No. I gave is correct also. That is a number placed on photos for references when they place them in a newspaper. If you could find old copies of the newspaper you most likely could find your photo by the Number.

Franklin ~

Please allow me time to consider your observations, and examine things more closely. I will get back to you as soon as I can.

Thanks again.

Bob

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

Franklin ~

Please trust me when I say I am trying really hard to connect the dots regarding your observations and claims. But I have to ask that you please help me make sense of everything. I was able to find some references to the SBA/Southern Baseball Associantion, but I did not find a connection to Montgomery, Texas. However, there was a Montgomery, Alabama in the league.

I have a lot more questions for you, but for the time being how'z about we just focus on the Texas vs Alabama confusion.

Here are some helpful links where I found the information above.

Southern Association Baseball The Southern Association was organized in 1900 by Abner Powell, Charles Frank, and Newt Fisher from the ashes of the failed Southern League (1885–1899). Southern Association Baseball - Montgomery Respectfully and appreciatively, Bob

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

3. The grain mill says Montgomery, Texas because that was the headquarters where the league was started, it says SBA above it.

Maybe I have the wrong league.

Bob

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

PS:

Franklin ~

Unless I have the wrong league or am misunderstanding something, I cannot find a single connection between the SBA and the state of Texas. Do you have a link or some other reference that we can take a look at regarding this? I'm also curious to know where you read or came up with the the claim that the SBA "headquarters" was in Montgomery, Texas?

Thanks.

Bob

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

I have ways to work on photos not only magnification but everything else. 2. Information was on the back of the frame. 3. The grain mill says Montgomery, Texas because that was the headquarters where the league was started, it says SBA above it. The grain mills were used as billboards. The grain mill could have been in Montgomery, Texas but the one in Aurora, Nebraska was most similar and in the same league. 4. As I said the old mill was like a billboard you know how long out-dated advertising sometimes remains. Also the photgraph you have could have been taken in 1888 as that was within a few years of when the league started. Also the back may be 5-8-1888 instead of 1883 as the last cipher was hard to make out as it was a pencil tracing on the back of the frame. The date 1925 had Ed. after it meaning Edited for the Southwest News and the No. I gave is correct also. That is a number placed on photos for references when they place them in a newspaper. If you could find old copies of the newspaper you most likely could find your photo by the Number.

Hello Franklin. How about a screenshot under magnification? Thanks.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

No I can actually see what I posted. By the Ed. most likely means edited for the newspaper. They could have edited an older photograph of 5-8-1883 or this date could be the date the player was born or the date of the picture when it was taken. Above the name CALDWELL on the back is the word "Vanquest" I don't know what that means?

Can you not see the writing on the picture I posted. The print is from bottom to top around the left side of the baseball player.

Thanks for replying back Franklin. So many people make bold claims and then we never hear from them again.

To answer your question, NO I cannot see anything on the tiny pictures you posted. I think you need to post a screenshot of something much larger. Make 2 side by side of the same pics and outline in red what you can vision please. Thanks

View attachment 634338View attachment 634339

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

PS ~ PS

There is/was never an organization (that I can find) called the SBA/Southern Baseball Association. Not in Texas or any other state. There was a Southern Association, but the word "Baseball" was not a part of the official title. The link I posted does not say "Southern Baseball Association/SBA" it says, "Southern Association Baseball," which would be SAB, if anything.

Even though I am trying my best, this just isn't making sense.

Bob

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

I just received a reply from one of several email inquires I made. Here's what one of the experts had to say (copy/pasted).

Hi Bob,

I'm sorry, but there don't seem to be many identifying features in that photo to help narrow it down. My best guess is that it's sometime in the early 1900s (c. 1900-1910), based on the collar of the jersey. If there was a way to read the words on the grain elevator, I think that would offer the best clue. The dark panel in the middle of his cap is also somewhat distinguishable, but according to Marc Okkonen's uniform database(National Baseball Hall of Fame - Dressed to the Nines - Uniform Database) no major league league team wore a cap that looks like that, as far as I can tell.

Sorry I can't be of any further assistance. There are a lot of these photos out there, and without any other context to go on, it's probably going to be next to impossible to identify.

Regards,

Jacob Pomrenke

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

PS:

Franklin ~

Unless I have the wrong league or am misunderstanding something, I cannot find a single connection between the SBA and the state of Texas. Do you have a link or some other reference that we can take a look at regarding this? I'm also curious to know where you read or came up with the the claim that the SBA "headquarters" was in Montgomery, Texas?

Thanks.

Bob

Not one bit of it makes any sense to me either. Why would the SBA or SAB be playing in Aurora Nebraska and where does it say Aurora is in the same southern league?

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

I just received a reply from one of several email inquires I made. Here's what one of the experts had to say (copy/pasted).

Hi Bob,

I'm sorry, but there don't seem to be many identifying features in that photo to help narrow it down. My best guess is that it's sometime in the early 1900s (c. 1900-1910), based on the collar of the jersey. If there was a way to read the words on the grain elevator, I think that would offer the best clue. The dark panel in the middle of his cap is also somewhat distinguishable, but according to Marc Okkonen's uniform database(National Baseball Hall of Fame - Dressed to the Nines - Uniform Database) no major league league team wore a cap that looks like that, as far as I can tell.

Sorry I can't be of any further assistance. There are a lot of these photos out there, and without any other context to go on, it's probably going to be next to impossible to identify.

Regards,

Jacob Pomrenke

View attachment 634341

You found a player with this hat. Once it is is revealed or a member finds it we can move on with the investigation to find out what team he played for. Where you able to find out what team he played for?.
View attachment 634342

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

You found a player with this hat. Once it is is revealed or a member finds it we can move on with the investigation to find out what team he played for. Where you able to find out what team he played for?.

Um, ah ... I really need to emphasize that the cap I posted a cropped image of is only similar in that it is two-colored. I'm 99.9% certain it is not the same "style" of cap the player in my photo is wearing. The one I posted is dated 1870-1871 and is what I now refer to as the "Circus" "Clown" period of baseball when they were still unsure about as to how to promote and organize. In the early days of baseball they even wore "chest panels" on the fronts of their jersey's like the fireman of the period used to wear. If no one finds and post the full picture within the next couple of hours, I will post it myself and just call the contest a bust. I was just trying to make things fun and interesting. But now I'm relying on "true" experts to help solve this and (until further notice) I have decided to go with Jacob's "educated" guess of circa 1900-1910.

Bob

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

PS ~

The guy wearing the clown/baseball cap played for the Croghan (Fremont, Ohio) Base Ball Club, 1871. Just wait until you see the uniform he's wearing, it will crack you up.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

PS ~

The guy wearing the clown/baseball cap played for the Croghan (Fremont, Ohio) Base Ball Club, 1871. Just wait until you see the uniform he's wearing, it will crack you up.

I guess there could be a lot of teams with the same cap so maybe I souldnt be so optomistic. Maybe ESP is your best chance (wink) 1871 thats old.

I think you posted another clue.

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

I was playing around with the uniform database that Jacob recommended and came up with the following for ...

1900-1910 ... National Baseball Hall of Fame - Dressed to the Nines - Uniform Database

You can click on each illustration to enlarge and examine it in more detail.

Just keep clicking on the "Next" button on the bottom and it will show every change in uniforms between 1900 and 1910. This particular range of years totals about 10 "next" pages. Its really cool and fun. Check it out. And just click on "Database" at the top of the page if want to play around with other years. Just follow the instructions accordingly. Its easy!

Bob

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

Here's the answer to our mystery baseball player with the weird cap and uniform, which finalizes Part Two of the contest. Sorry. Better luck next time. However, I will still grant a prize for Part One of the contest to the individual who finds and post a picture of "a real, exact matching cap."

SBB


Birchard Austin Hayes ~ Oldest son of our 19th President, Rutherford B Hayes ...



Read all about him here. The top link is where I found the picture. That same website is also where I found the picture of the 1877 De Witt's catalog. If you keep clicking on "The Equipment Continued" you will see all sorts of interesting stuff. In fact, the entire website is amazing.

Baseball History: 19th Century Baseball: The Equipment

Baseball History: 19th Century Baseball: Image: Baseball Player Circa 1871

Birchard Austin Hayes Collection at the Rutherford B. Hayes Presidential Center

The Rutherford B. Hayes Presidential Center

PRESIDENTIAL CHILDREN: THE HAYES KIDS

Rutherford B. Hayes - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

I am still looking forward to hearing back from Franklin. It just blows my mind that he posts a tiny picture and expects us to see all that stuff. I just dont understand what has been happening to TN lately. Maybe its all the publicity on TV. It seems we have lost some credibility on this forum, and participation of old regulars seems to be down. The entertainment factor however is up I guess.