Coiins from a shipwreck

Being as I worked for the National Weather Service for almost 33 years, I can attest to the raw power of Hurricanes! However, I will contest the theory that a Hurricane will move Spanish shipwreck coins for hundreds of miles across the state of Florida. Across the Florida Keys, yes but the entire state no! There are too many variables to consider and two that have to remain fairly constant is fluid unimpeded water and unimpeded winds. The size of a storm surge can reach enormous sizes while a Hurricane travels over open, deep water, however, as the storm surge and eventually the Hurricane runs into a Coral Reef as is the case around most of the state of Florida, the storm surge diminishes rapidly due to lack of depth and volume of water. Now, since the water along much of Florida's coastline lying inside the boundaries of the Coral Reef is generally 50 feet or less in depth and get's shallower as you near the beach or coastline, the storm surge looses more and more intensity and depth. Also, you combine the aforementioned with the many Coral and rock outcroppings that especially plague part of Florida's east Coast, a storm surge's strength is diminished even more by these. I will grant you that the storm surge of a Hurricane can pick up coins from the bottom of the shallow water along a coastline, fling them into the air as waves break and then they can be carried hundreds of yards to possibly a few miles inland depending upon their' sizes and composition! However, even though individual coins are not very heavy, they are still subject to gravity which is a constant even when the forces (water and wind) that carried them into the air continue to propel them along. Since the true storm surge of a Hurricane diminishes rapidly as it travels inland, the coins loose the fluidity needed if carried by water and since the winds of a Hurricane become somewhat variable and hindered as they travel across land (due to terrain, trees and buildings), the coins rapidly loose the propulsion needed to continue on for miles and miles and miles. One must remember that although both are extreme low pressure systems, a Hurricane is not a Tornado which can easily suck items high up into it's circulation and carry these items for as much as 25, 50, 75 or even 100 miles as some Tornadoes have been known to do! The cases of the Santa Margarita and Atocha shipwrecks are great examples of how both the storm surge and winds of Hurricanes can carry large fairly intact items (in this case ships) and most of their' cargo for many, many miles. Even though both were sunk by Hurricanes, they both sat reasonably intact on the bottom of the ocean and were then propelled along the bottom and probably at times off the bottom by preceding Hurricanes that eventually tore them apart mainly by the storm surge action and collisions with the bottom where they collided with Coral Heads, rocks, shoals and mainly underwater sandbars. While a vast majority of the cargo and other items (cannons, dinnerware, sextants, etc., etc.) have been salvaged from these two shipwrecks, there is still a lot that has not been found and especially so with the Atocha whose' Sterncastle (sometimes called Stemcastle) has never been found. Now, unless you worked on either of these shipwrecks (either in the water or in doing research) or know someone that worked on them and are privy to their' locations, don't think that you can find either by using the Nautical charts that show their' location as the their' true locations have been skewed to protect both of the sites from anyone (looking for a quick score) other than those authorized to work the sites. I knew Mel Fisher, his wife and one of Mel's Salvage Photograpers and spent some time discussing both the Santa Margarita and Atocha wrecks and their' finds up until late 1984. I sold my' 1977 Pontiac Grand Prix to Mel's Salvage Photographer (who's name escapes me as it was 29 years ago) and gave him pertinent information on the Hurricanes that carried both the Santa Margarita and Atocha ships away from their’ original resting places which may or may not have been of benefit to Mel, his' salvage crews and Researchers.

I spent a total of 5 years and 11 months on the tiny island (Key) of Key West (November 19, 1978 to October 19, 1984), working for the National Weather Service first as an Upper Air Technician trainee, then a Meteorological Technician trainee, then as a Meteorological Technician. In my spare time, besides fishing, catching shrimp and blue crabs and metal detecting, I studied books containing logs from the Captains of many Spanish Galleons in an attempt to gleam where the Hurricanes developed and traveled that carried off the Santa Margarita and Atocha wrecks.


Frank
 
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Now has anyone tried scuba diving/snorkeling and Md'ing the (not sure what it is called) Intercoastal Waterways from near Canaveral to Ft. Lauderdale and especially from Sebastien Inlet South to Ft. Lauderdale? There are a lot of known and probably unknown Spanish shipwrecks off the coast of Florida between these locations and it is quite conceivable that Spanish Pieces of Eight and other valuable and non-valuable items made it into the Intercoastal Waters due to the many Hurricanes that have skirted or passed over these areas. I know that if I lived in the area, that is where I would be looking as long as some local or State Laws did not prevent it!


Frank
 
Hey Frank, I worked the Atocha for Mel and he showed me all his charts of the scatter pattern of the Atocha. You're right, the Atocha was torn apart by the second hurricane and the sterncastle went tumbling across the bottom for a long way, spilling out treasure. The "treasure trail" where they have been finding artifacts (and gold) stretches in an arc at least 8 miles from the ballast pile and further. Mel's photographer was Pat Clyne.
 
Hey Frank, I worked the Atocha for Mel and he showed me all his charts of the scatter pattern of the Atocha. You're right, the Atocha was torn apart by the second hurricane and the sterncastle went tumbling across the bottom for a long way, spilling out treasure. The "treasure trail" where they have been finding artifacts (and gold) stretches in an arc at least 8 miles from the ballast pile and further. Mel's photographer was Pat Clyne.

Thanks for the confirmation on the facts about the Atocha wreck and treasure trail as well as the Photographer's name! He was a friend of my' neighbor Sam Gibson who worked for the Electric Company in Key West which I believe has since changed names. Sam who lived in the adjouning apartment of the double flats on Sunshine Drive in Key West, told Pat that I was selling my' car as I had gotten a position in Elkins, West Virginia and was moving soon. We met at Sam's apartment, had a few beers, talked about the Atocha and my theories of where to look and I signed the car over to him once he had paid me. We really had a good time and I surely miss old Sam, he was a very good neighbor who was very watchful over my' two daughters at the time. I miss a lot of my' other friends there but I don't miss Key West! It is a great place to visit but you don't want to live there! It is too hot and humid in the summer, too expensive for renting, electric and water and when I was there, there was too much of shady goin's ons. Did you ever know or meet Roy Ridgeway, the African-American gentleman that sold Conch Shells, other shells and his chainsaw wood carvings made from Coconut Palm Trees? Roy was a very good friend that taught me a lot about metal detecting and he seems to have a Golden Thumb when it came to finding stuff. I lost track of Roy when I moved and fear that he has since passed which is a loss to everyone who ever knew him!


Frank

P.S. If you are ever interested, I have some theories as to where the sterncastle might be located.
 
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Hey Frank, yes I met Roy. I bought a helmet conch shell from him. He has a lot of talent for sculpture. I had no idea he made that stuff with a chain saw! The salvage crew on the J.B. McGruder are now out 10 miles from the ballast pile. The arc is a result of the hurricane moving north and the shifting winds. I have a theory of where the sterncastle came to rest too. It is at a dropoff that goes from 30' down to 55' deep just past the quicksands. PM me with your theory.

-Pete
 
Hey Frank, yes I met Roy. I bought a helmet conch shell from him. He has a lot of talent for sculpture. I had no idea he made that stuff with a chain saw! The salvage crew on the J.B. McGruder are now out 10 miles from the ballast pile. The arc is a result of the hurricane moving north and the shifting winds. I have a theory of where the sterncastle came to rest too. It is at a dropoff that goes from 30' down to 55' deep just past the quicksands. PM me with your theory.

-Pete

Pete,

Roy not only had a lot of talent (**) but was also one the luckiest persons I have ever known when it come to metal detecting and digging out trash pits! He had an enormous collection of rum bottles, Rum Smuggler's blue-green jugs and many other bottles, many of which dated back to the earlier 1700's into the 1900's. He also was like a magnet for finding old coins quite a few which were Spanish Pieces of Eight dated in the 1700's, many rings and lots of other very collectible and valuable items. I still remember the look on his' face when after other MD'ers pushed into the area I was detecting when they cleared the big lot a Peary Court and I was going back over his' already searched area. He approached me and stated that he had already been over those spots with his' Garrett Metal Detector and I would find nothing. I then told him that I had already found over 30 coins (Wheat Cents, Buffalo Nickels and Silver Mercury and Barber Dimes, Washington Quarters and one Walking Liberty Half) with my' White's 2000-D Metal Detector by just walking in his' footsteps. I thought he was going to faint right there and I went a few feet further and found a large pocket spill of 25 or more Silver coins while he was still standing there in amazement! I felt sorry for him but at the same time I felt elated that my' White's 2000-D Metal Detector out detected his' Garrett Metal Detector that he loved so well!

(**) I neglected to mention that he roughed out the carvings which were mainly Totem Poles with a chainsaw, then he finished them with a small hatchet, some wood chisels and a torch.


Frank
 
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I bet you my Aquapulse will beat your Whites 2000-D any day.
 
Now has anyone tried scuba diving/snorkeling and Md'ing the (not sure what it is called) Intercoastal Waterways from near Canaveral to Ft. Lauderdale and especially from Sebastien Inlet South to Ft. Lauderdale? There are a lot of known and probably unknown Spanish shipwrecks off the coast of Florida between these locations and it is quite conceivable that Spanish Pieces of Eight and other valuable and non-valuable items made it into the Intercoastal Waters due to the many Hurricanes that have skirted or passed over these areas. I know that if I lived in the area, that is where I would be looking as long as some local or State Laws did not prevent it!


Frank

don't think I havnt thought about that, ALOT and often!!!! your not supposed to keep any finds made in the river that are more than 50 years old. any finds there would have to be kept unreported!!!! another reason I would like to see the state of florida adopt the British portable antiquities scheme.
chuck.
 
I bet you my Aquapulse will beat your Whites 2000-D any day.

That is probably true but we can't find out since I sold my' White's 2000-D about a year after I left Key West! It was one of my worst decisions that I ever made in my life! When it blew Roy's Garrett Metal Detector away, it had just come back from White's for a repair of the audio (both external and headphones) but while there, they replaced every weak circuit and tuned that bad boy up, so that it roared like a blueprinted and balanced 351 Cleveland engine even when it hit small but deep objects.

Now that OKM is producing underwater metal detectors, have you thought about investing in one of their' models?
Ooops, I thought that I had seen where they came out with an underwater model of metal detector but now see that they have not. Maybe I saw there new water finding model! You sure don't need one of them out on the ocean, huh! LOL!!! I do wonder if one of their' ground penetrating radar models could be adapted to see what is hidden by sand, coral, sea life and other debris on the ocean floor.


Frank
 
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don't think I havnt thought about that, ALOT and often!!!! your not supposed to keep any finds made in the river that are more than 50 years old. any finds there would have to be kept unreported!!!! another reason I would like to see the state of florida adopt the British portable antiquities scheme.
chuck.

Yeah, the State of Florida is and always has been only interested in filling the State Coffers! With enough support from Treasure Hunters, other MD'ers, Archaeologists and Museums, enough pressure could be put of the Florida Legislature to enact such a Law. At least then, the Treasure Hunters and MD'ers could get some compensation for their' time, trouble, research and cost of equipment!


Frank
 
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Doesn't the deposition of shipwreck coins along the beaches of the treasure coast mitigate against the idea they are readily transported great distances either north or south along shore? We all know coins and other items tend to clump together in certain areas: Bonsteel Park, Cabin wreck site, Corrigan's, etc. I am not talking about ships breaking up and leaving a debris trail. I think any rational person agrees this can happen. I am simply talking about the fact that the lions share of items tend to clump together in recognizable areas and to not be spread out evenly along the coast.
 
Doesn't the deposition of shipwreck coins along the beaches of the treasure coast mitigate against the idea they are readily transported great distances either north or south along shore? We all know coins and other items tend to clump together in certain areas: Bonsteel Park, Cabin wreck site, Corrigan's, etc. I am not talking about ships breaking up and leaving a debris trail. I think any rational person agrees this can happen. I am simply talking about the fact that the lions share of items tend to clump together in recognizable areas and to not be spread out evenly along the coast.

I just had my first cup of coffee and I must admit that I had a little trouble following what you were trying to convey and ask! Depending upon how a ship wrecked when it slammed into the reef, coral heads, rocks or beached is the most significant factor in whether the coins or other cargo will generally clump together once they are deposited on the ocean floor. If a ship went down with the coins and other cargo reasonably intact and they were eventually deposited by the hull slowing breaking up or the hull breeched upon impact and the coins and other cargo pretty much dropped in one spot, they will tend to clump and therefore due to their' combined weight, be less likely to scatter North and South or Westward (as in Treasure Coast wrecks) onto the beaches and further inland. However, if a ship broke apart upon collision with the reef, coral heads or rocks and the coins and other cargo were released from their' holds (barrels, crates, chests, etc.) in a sudden surge generally in the direction of travel and deposited on the ocean floor or gradually dumped from the hull as the ship continued forward while breaking apart, they would be somewhat scattered and not be stacked or piled on top of each other and therefore be more susceptible to wave and wind action and definitely from the forces of a hurricane. It takes a long time for coral or other encrustation's to develop around coins, so therefore, they would have to remain pretty much unmoving for a very long period for this to happen. Other factors must also be considered such as the depth at which the coins and cargo were deposited on the ocean floor, the ocean floor itself (i.e. is it mainly loose sand or covered with gravel type rocks or both, or contains larger rocks, or has many coral heads, etc.), the coastline itself (are there many portions jutting out into the ocean, many bays, lagoons and harbor sized inlets) as well as the prevailing and sometimes non-prevailing (as in hurricane effects and strong weather systems) waves and winds. All of the factors and conditions that I stated, are the reasons why there is so much variability between one shipwreck site to the next!


Frank
 
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Frank, my buddy has an OKM Gems and I was very impressed with it. So I looked at the OKM 5000. It costs $56,000!
 
Frank, my buddy has an OKM Gems and I was very impressed with it. So I looked at the OKM 5000. It costs $56,000!

I have seen some of things that folks with the OKM's Metal Detectors and GPR/Metal Detectors have found and am impressed! I just wish that either their sales would go up so that they could ease up on the prices or worse case scenario, that they would have to lower prices to move out overstock! The second could be devastating to their' bottom line but it would at least bring in some much needed funds. I am not saying that they are in trouble because they probably aren't as they apparently have some deep pocketed financiers but that can only continue for so long, as any lack of sales due to the high costs of their' products will eventually break the Bank! The R&D costs for these machines must be mind staggering considering their' capabilities and then you add in production, advertizing, logistics and shipping costs, it is hard to say where or at what point they turn a profit. However, with each machine produced and sold, they should be able to squeak by with some savings and pass them down to the consumers but I don't see any budge whatsoever on the prices. It would sure be nice to own the Exp 5000 full model as it would take a lot of guess work out of Treasure Hunting and could pay for itself with one good score! Now, if they could be modified or built to work underwater or over open water, finding shipwrecks or their' cargo would be made a lot easier. Correct me if I am wrong but I believe that the Exp 5000 model is good to 80 feet down on land. Can you imagine what that would mean to Treasure Hunting for shipwrecks if they could build an underwater or surface towed model with the same or more depth capability??!! It would surely lower the costs for endless hours of searching and lower the amount time you have to get your' a$% wet!!! LOL!!!

There is still a lot of Gold fairly close by to where I live and I have seriously considered trying to find a way to purchase one of their' Gold Finding Models and one of the cheaper Gold Metal Detectors.


Frank
 
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Frank, where do you live?
 
I just had my first cup of coffee and I must admit that I had a little trouble following what you were trying to convey and ask! Depending upon how a ship wrecked when it slammed into the reef, coral heads, rocks or beached is the most significant factor in whether the coins or other cargo will generally clump together once they are deposited on the ocean floor. If a ship went down with the coins and other cargo reasonably intact and they were eventually deposited by the hull slowing breaking up or the hull breeched upon impact and the coins and other cargo pretty much dropped in one spot, they will tend to clump and therefore due to their' combined weight, be less likely to scatter North and South or Westward (as in Treasure Coast wrecks) onto the beaches and further inland. However, if a ship broke apart upon collision with the reef, coral heads or rocks and the coins and other cargo were released from their' holds (barrels, crates, chests, etc.) in a sudden surge generally in the direction of travel and deposited on the ocean floor or gradually dumped from the hull as the ship continued forward while breaking apart, they would be somewhat scattered and not be stacked or piled on top of each other and therefore be more susceptible to wave and wind action and definitely from the forces of a hurricane. It takes a long time for coral or other encrustation's to develop around coins, so therefore, they would have to remain pretty much unmoving for a very long period for this to happen. Other factors must also be considered such as the depth at which the coins and cargo were deposited on the ocean floor, the ocean floor itself (i.e. is it mainly loose sand or covered with gravel type rocks or both, or contains larger rocks, or has many coral heads, etc.), the coastline itself (are there many portions jutting out into the ocean, many bays, lagoons and harbor sized inlets) as well as the prevailing and sometimes non-prevailing (as in hurricane effects and strong weather systems) waves and winds. All of the factors and conditions that I stated, are the reasons why there is so much variability between one shipwreck site to the next!

Frank

Hey Frank,
Chat to them and see if they want to let you have a go with a demo model and see what you can find, they may like the idea of the publicity if you score with one of their models.. Just a thought?
 

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