Continuum

[Al D]

Where does it say the name Peralta on the Peralta stone maps? Thanks in advance.

I would point out that the Peralta saga is traceable to an earlier lost mine associated with "Jacobs and Ludi". Almost verbatim.

Alan M wrote


I would point out to you that it was you, who posted this earlier:



I would also point out that over 200 people have claimed to have found the LDM. If even ONE of these was correct, then the LDM is found. I will take my "attitude" where ever I like, this is a public forum and you do not control it.

All you do is attack and stir up dog doo, never contributing anything of value, I got you figured out

 

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[somehiker]

Thanks, Wayne, great info, clearly de Vaca was an idealist and cared nothing about gold except that it might ruin the Pimas way of life. It really is not known how far north he got. My guess the Pimas liked him and could have share info about gold, but he would not have shared it, because he felt it would have turned the Pima's into slaves. He may have shared it with family but maybe not? He would be a stretch, but we really do not know? I know about de Niza. What do you know about the family ties between de Vaca and Peralta? Diego de Peralta y Cabeza Vaca? He was in Peru but somewhere, I feel there may be a link that is of importance. Was there any freelance Spaniards early on that was not officially sanctioned by the crown in the new world.

Pretty sure he joined the Narvaez Expedition as a treasure seeker, but gained sympathy after living with them and sharing their struggles for all those years, and from being isolated from the Spanish world. In a way, that is similar to how cult members become indoctrinated to become idealist, rather than pragmatist. What was happening then was a two-way street, with slavery,cruelty and barbarism common on both sides. In some parts of the world, it's not much different now.
There's nothing in de Vaca's account that suggests that he encountered the Pima during his travels. Even those who have theorized that his route passed through the south-eastern corner of Arizona haven't suggested that he and his companions did. And there is certainly no evidence they were any further north, let alone spent any time there. Which isn't to say that no-one from the Tohono O'odham (also piman) tribal lands of northern Sonora could not have gone south to see for themselves what they might have heard was going on as de Vaca and his entourage proceeded westward.

I doubt de Vaca had any info worth sharing exclusively with his family, since there is no evidence any of them developed an interest in the US southwest. Instead, it was Peru and Argentina which became their sphere of influence for a time.
My belief is that Estevan, being more adept at translating, as well as likely being a greater curiosity to the natives, was the one who was given any information about "large and rich cities to the north"....probably by Opata natives in the vicinity of Paquime (Casas Grandes). They have ancestral ties to central Arizona, as well as to other ancient peoples of southern Az. and northern Sonora and Sinaloa.

I don't see any direct link between Diego de Peralta y Cabeza Vaca, and anything relevant to the stone maps or ldm.
But there was familial connections and Castillian Basque heritage shared between de Vaca, his cousin Pizarro, and the first Peralta's in the new world. It's all about nepotism. Many of the conquistadors shared the same background and purpose. There were freelancers once the territories were opened up for colonialism and grants of lands and their native peoples became a possibility, especially for those who were able to take advantage of any connections they had or could make. Their enterprises varied....trade and mercantile, including slave trading, mining,ranching and plantation farming etc. I would think there were also more than a few unsanctioned and unrecorded explorations in search of new opportunities as well.

 

[Oroblanco]

All you do is attack and stir up dog doo, never contributing anything of value, I got you figured out

You got nothing figured out. Have you read all of my posts here? Clearly not. And just as clearly, your proposition that it would be difficult to defend the statement that the PSMs and LDM have nothing to do with each other is false, as you have not shown any correlation between them. It can't even be proven that the PSMs are maps of a place in Arizona, in fact the only places named on them are NOT in Arizona at all. (Sonora and El Paso) Resorting to flinging names like you are doing further proves the weakness of your position and won't swing me over to your point of view whatsoever. Sorry if this offends you, but you have not been contributing anything but verbiage since appearing here.

 

[Al D]

You got nothing figured out. Have you read all of my posts here? Clearly not. And just as clearly, your proposition that it would be difficult to defend the statement that the PSMs and LDM have nothing to do with each other is false, as you have not shown any correlation between them. It can't even be proven that the PSMs are maps of a place in Arizona, in fact the only places named on them are NOT in Arizona at all. (Sonora and El Paso) Resorting to flinging names like you are doing further proves the weakness of your position and won't swing me over to your point of view whatsoever. Sorry if this offends you, but you have not been contributing anything but verbiage since appearing here.

Not trying to swing you anywhere, just asked a simple question which you took offense to and could not answer,

 

[somehiker]

Where does it say the name Peralta on the Peralta stone maps? Thanks in advance.

I would point out that the Peralta saga is traceable to an earlier lost mine associated with "Jacobs and Ludi". Almost verbatim.

Alan M wrote


I would point out to you that it was you, who posted this earlier:



I would also point out that over 200 people have claimed to have found the LDM. If even ONE of these was correct, then the LDM is found. I will take my "attitude" where ever I like, this is a public forum and you do not control it.

Take your vitriol elsewhere Roy.
I'd rather see this thread remain open for non-confrontational adult discussion, and sharing of information, rather than see it closed like the other thread was.

 

[arcana-exploration]

Pretty sure he joined the Narvaez Expedition as a treasure seeker, but gained sympathy after living with them and sharing their struggles for all those years, and from being isolated from the Spanish world. In a way, that is similar to how cult members become indoctrinated to become idealist, rather than pragmatist. What was happening then was a two-way street, with slavery,cruelty and barbarism common on both sides. In some parts of the world, it's not much different now.
There's nothing in de Vaca's account that suggests that he encountered the Pima during his travels. Even those who have theorized that his route passed through the south-eastern corner of Arizona haven't suggested that he and his companions did. And there is certainly no evidence they were any further north, let alone spent any time there. Which isn't to say that no-one from the Tohono O'odham (also piman) tribal lands of northern Sonora could not have gone south to see for themselves what they might have heard was going on as de Vaca and his entourage proceeded westward.

I doubt de Vaca had any info worth sharing exclusively with his family, since there is no evidence any of them developed an interest in the US southwest. Instead, it was Peru and Argentina which became their sphere of influence for a time.
My belief is that Estevan, being more adept at translating, as well as likely being a greater curiosity to the natives, was the one who was given any information about "large and rich cities to the north"....probably by Opata natives in the vicinity of Paquime (Casas Grandes). They have ancestral ties to central Arizona, as well as to other ancient peoples of southern Az. and northern Sonora and Sinaloa.

I don't see any direct link between Diego de Peralta y Cabeza Vaca, and anything relevant to the stone maps or ldm.
But there was familial connections and Castillian Basque heritage shared between de Vaca, his cousin Pizarro, and the first Peralta's in the new world. It's all about nepotism. Many of the conquistadors shared the same background and purpose. There were freelancers once the territories were opened up for colonialism and grants of lands and their native peoples became a possibility, especially for those who were able to take advantage of any connections they had or could make. Their enterprises varied....trade and mercantile, including slave trading, mining,ranching and plantation farming etc. I would think there were also more than a few unsanctioned and unrecorded explorations in search of new opportunities as well.

Wayne great info. Three things I thought de Vaca lived with the Pima's on his way back from the ill-fated Florida, expedition( Maybe that youtube video you gave me?) I will check. The second thing who was the first known Peralta in New Spain. And that tie between the Peralta and the de Vaca, a family where can I find more info? Thanks, Jeff

 

[arcana-exploration]

Alan, Of course, the Dutchman, did not know anything about the Peralta Stones, who would even suggest, that, that would be goofy. The connection between the Peralta Stones is the map info value on the Stones leads to the same " birds nest and has been visited by different groups and individuals. To dismiss the PSMs is premature. I have stated this several times on our site. Alan, you do not have to show a correlation, the site shows it and we will share it sooner than later. And we will. We are posting and showing images on our site( the ones that we can). The facts on the ground, support that position. I ask Wayne, you do a lot of research, who was the first known Peralta in New Spain? Thanks, Jeff.

 

[somehiker]

Alan, Of course, the Dutchman, did not know anything about the Peralta Stones, who would even suggest, that, that would be goofy. The connection between the Peralta Stones is the map info value on the Stones leads to the same " birds nest and has been visited by different groups and individuals. To dismiss the PSMs is premature. I have stated this several times on our site. Alan, you do not have to show a correlation, the site shows it and we will share it sooner than later. And we will. We are posting and showing images on our site( the ones that we can). The facts on the ground, support that position. I ask Wayne, you do a lot of research, who was the first known Peralta in New Spain? Thanks, Jeff.

The earliest reference to a Peralta in Mexico I have to date......Juan Suarez de Peralta 1537-1590

A merchant and historian apparently.

http://www.historicas.unam.mx/publicaciones/publicadigital/libros/lecturas/T1/LHMT1_036.pdf

Interesting individual.....with connections

JUAN SUAREZ DE PERALTA
Creole born in Mexico the year of 1537. He died in Spain
after 1590.
Family of Cortes devoted to mercantile life and
description of the history of the Conquest, as well as of the cos ·
galanas and chivalrous lights of his contemporaries.
Federico Gómez de Orozco, in his Preliminary Note to the Tra-
tado of the discovery of the Indies, (Historical news of
New Spain), composed in 1589 by Don Juan Suárez
from Peralta, neighbor and native of Mexico. Mexico

A partial (Google) translation of one of his own historical accounts, as given to writer Don Juan Suárez .....

"THE SEVEN CITIES OF CIBOLA. THE HUNTING
That is about how Viceroy Don Antonio de Mendoza did
the army for the Seven Cities, and how he went out with the people
and how far he got with her, and what happened most.
The greed was so great that he put the new of the Seven to all.
Cities, which not only the viceroy and marquis raised the
feet to go to it, but to the whole earth, and so much, that by
please negotiated to go the soldiers, and take leave; and was
so that they were sold, and the one who had it was not thinking, but
which was already a title at least, because it was more expensive
I had come from there, luckily, who claimed to be the best
thing that was in the world: the people of that land very
prosperous, and all the dressed Indians, gentlemen of much ga-
I swim; the mountains like those of Spain, and tempera, the firewood that
it burned were very large walnuts, which gave a lot
walnut, better than those in Spain; many mountain grapes of
Very nice to eat, chestnuts and hazelnuts. As he painted it,
it must be the earthly paradise, and in what is partridge hunting,
aresres, cranes and all other poultry, it was wonderful what
that there was. In all this I told the truth, because there is in that
land the mountains he said and cattle, especially cows;
but they are not like those here, because I saw leathers of those who
they brought these soldiers, and they are very different; they have the pes-
I bake and forehead full of wool, which look like only choir lions
swims, the horns like a span, very sharp, that can
serve as alesnas; little bulls and cows, brave in
Big end, and many in quantity. Grapes and hunting without
doubt, and temperament, like that of Spain.
In what is hunting, in New Spain there are many
of poultry, and ares and cranes that there is no number, the four
they come to winter, and then, as spring begins
They leave, that not one remains. I have heard that they are going to breed
to Florida, and that's where they come from, and it's certainly, for everything
that of Cíbola, where they say of these cities; and even the
hawks, as they are Neblíes, and sacres and fins and baharíes, and
other birds of prey must come from there, because when
They come, they are wintering when the sands. Then it was
man, and it is in a lot and there are so many that are taken,
that I have seen in the Mixteca la Alta, in Tamazulapa, a
My brother's people, which belonged to my father, and in Y anhui-
tlán, town of Gonzalo de las Casas, and in other towns by
there near, market days, which call tianguez, com "

 

[arcana-exploration]

The earliest reference to a Peralta in Mexico I have to date......Juan Suarez de Peralta 1537-1590

A merchant and historian apparently.

http://www.historicas.unam.mx/publicaciones/publicadigital/libros/lecturas/T1/LHMT1_036.pdf

Interesting individual.....with connections

JUAN SUAREZ DE PERALTA
Creole born in Mexico the year of 1537. He died in Spain
after 1590.
Family of Cortes devoted to mercantile life and
description of the history of the Conquest, as well as of the cos ·
galanas and chivalrous lights of his contemporaries.
Federico Gómez de Orozco, in his Preliminary Note to the Tra-
tado of the discovery of the Indies, (Historical news of
New Spain), composed in 1589 by Don Juan Suárez
from Peralta, neighbor and native of Mexico. Mexico

A partial (Google) translation of one of his own historical accounts, as given to writer Don Juan Suárez .....

"THE SEVEN CITIES OF CIBOLA. THE HUNTING
That is about how Viceroy Don Antonio de Mendoza did
the army for the Seven Cities, and how he went out with the people
and how far he got with her, and what happened most.
The greed was so great that he put the new of the Seven to all.
Cities, which not only the viceroy and marquis raised the
feet to go to it, but to the whole earth, and so much, that by
please negotiated to go the soldiers, and take leave; and was
so that they were sold, and the one who had it was not thinking, but
which was already a title at least, because it was more expensive
I had come from there, luckily, who claimed to be the best
thing that was in the world: the people of that land very
prosperous, and all the dressed Indians, gentlemen of much ga-
I swim; the mountains like those of Spain, and tempera, the firewood that
it burned were very large walnuts, which gave a lot
walnut, better than those in Spain; many mountain grapes of
Very nice to eat, chestnuts and hazelnuts. As he painted it,
it must be the earthly paradise, and in what is partridge hunting,
aresres, cranes and all other poultry, it was wonderful what
that there was. In all this I told the truth, because there is in that
land the mountains he said and cattle, especially cows;
but they are not like those here, because I saw leathers of those who
they brought these soldiers, and they are very different; they have the pes-
I bake and forehead full of wool, which look like only choir lions
swims, the horns like a span, very sharp, that can
serve as alesnas; little bulls and cows, brave in
Big end, and many in quantity. Grapes and hunting without
doubt, and temperament, like that of Spain.
In what is hunting, in New Spain there are many
of poultry, and ares and cranes that there is no number, the four
they come to winter, and then, as spring begins
They leave, that not one remains. I have heard that they are going to breed
to Florida, and that's where they come from, and it's certainly, for everything
that of Cíbola, where they say of these cities; and even the
hawks, as they are Neblíes, and sacres and fins and baharíes, and
other birds of prey must come from there, because when
They come, they are wintering when the sands. Then it was
man, and it is in a lot and there are so many that are taken,
that I have seen in the Mixteca la Alta, in Tamazulapa, a
My brother's people, which belonged to my father, and in Y anhui-
tlán, town of Gonzalo de las Casas, and in other towns by
there near, market days, which call tianguez, com "

Thanks, I will check him out on Sunday, have my sons football draft Sat. Jeff.

 

[sdcfia]

All you do is attack and stir up dog doo, never contributing anything of value, I got you figured out

Quite obviously an incorrect statement.

 

[somehiker]

Correct or not, such opinions are off topic.

 

[sdcfia]

Pretty sure he joined the Narvaez Expedition as a treasure seeker, but gained sympathy after living with them and sharing their struggles for all those years, and from being isolated from the Spanish world. In a way, that is similar to how cult members become indoctrinated to become idealist, rather than pragmatist. What was happening then was a two-way street, with slavery,cruelty and barbarism common on both sides. In some parts of the world, it's not much different now.
There's nothing in de Vaca's account that suggests that he encountered the Pima during his travels. Even those who have theorized that his route passed through the south-eastern corner of Arizona haven't suggested that he and his companions did. And there is certainly no evidence they were any further north, let alone spent any time there. Which isn't to say that no-one from the Tohono O'odham (also piman) tribal lands of northern Sonora could not have gone south to see for themselves what they might have heard was going on as de Vaca and his entourage proceeded westward.

I doubt de Vaca had any info worth sharing exclusively with his family, since there is no evidence any of them developed an interest in the US southwest. Instead, it was Peru and Argentina which became their sphere of influence for a time.
My belief is that Estevan, being more adept at translating, as well as likely being a greater curiosity to the natives, was the one who was given any information about "large and rich cities to the north"....probably by Opata natives in the vicinity of Paquime (Casas Grandes). They have ancestral ties to central Arizona, as well as to other ancient peoples of southern Az. and northern Sonora and Sinaloa.

I don't see any direct link between Diego de Peralta y Cabeza Vaca, and anything relevant to the stone maps or ldm.
But there was familial connections and Castillian Basque heritage shared between de Vaca, his cousin Pizarro, and the first Peralta's in the new world. It's all about nepotism. Many of the conquistadors shared the same background and purpose. There were freelancers once the territories were opened up for colonialism and grants of lands and their native peoples became a possibility, especially for those who were able to take advantage of any connections they had or could make. Their enterprises varied....trade and mercantile, including slave trading, mining,ranching and plantation farming etc. I would think there were also more than a few unsanctioned and unrecorded explorations in search of new opportunities as well.

It's been years since I read de Vaca's Relacion, but as I recall, my takeaway from it was that Esteban was the key player of the four survivors during their odyssey. He's the one who seemed to most influence the various Natives along the way. He's the one who was sent ahead to grease the skids. Of course, de Vaca was a Conquistador and the the author, and Esteban was a mere slave, so ... Although it's debatable and probably unverifiable, the group likely followed the Rio Grande north to perhaps the Caballo Mountains latitude, more or less, before turning back to a more southerly course, finding old trails south and west before dropping into Mexico. I remember de Vaca's mention of five emerald arrowheads and gold rumors after the party cleared Texas. May have been wishful thinking on the part of the Conquistador, and those arrowheads may have been a green chert or malachite, but there are pesky rumors of emeralds in SW New Mexico tied to Fisher's Atocha recoveries. Quien sabe?

Re Esteban, aka Estavanico, there used to be an interesting website dedicated to the study of his life (The Estavanico Society) that had curious information about him. Unfortunately, that website is dead. The home page still exists, consisting of a boilerplate summary, but the more probing links have all been gutted. Along the same lines, a new book about Esteban was released a year or so ago that provides alternative material about the slave, supposedly including an argument that he was not killed at Zuni. I haven't read the book yet, but I'm getting more tempted. [[Edit: just ordered it.]] https://smile.amazon.com/Esteban-African-Slave-Explored-America/dp/0826359817/?tag=treasurenet01-20 There are local rumors about Esteban in the Santa Rita del Cobre/Pinos Altos Range in NM - not as part of the de Vaca party, but about his scouting for Marcos de Niza in 1539.

 

[Al D]

Alan, Of course, the Dutchman, did not know anything about the Peralta Stones, who would even suggest, that, that would be goofy. The connection between the Peralta Stones is the map info value on the Stones leads to the same " birds nest and has been visited by different groups and individuals. To dismiss the PSMs is premature. I have stated this several times on our site. Alan, you do not have to show a correlation, the site shows it and we will share it sooner than later. And we will. We are posting and showing images on our site( the ones that we can). The facts on the ground, support that position. I ask Wayne, you do a lot of research, who was the first known Peralta in New Spain? Thanks, Jeff.

I did not intend to suggest that Waltz knew about the PSM’s, however, my research has indicated that what the PSM’s pertain to and what Waltz found are definitely related.

 

[Al D]

Correct or not, such opinions are off topic.

You are right, I should have just ignored the poster, I shall do that in the future

 

[arcana-exploration]

I did not intend to suggest that Waltz knew about the PSM’s, however, my research has indicated that what the PSM’s pertain to and what Waltz found are definitely related.

Allen, I did not think you were making that correlation at, of course, you were not but he sounded like he was saying you needed to show a link which of, you know that is not the case., There does not need to be a direct link you never said that. There is a peripheral link between the two. They independently link to the same birds nest. That is what they have in common, which of course you knew. IMO

 

[sdcfia]

Allen, I did not think you were making that correlation at, of course, you were not but he sounded like he was saying you needed to show a link which of, you know that is not the case., There does not need to be a direct link you never said that. There is a peripheral link between the two. They independently link to the same birds nest. That is what they have in common, which of course you knew. IMO

Anything's possible of course, but other than the fact that these two stories each focus on well-fed but unverified rumors of alleged hidden riches in central Arizona, there isn't anything that links the two except speculation IMO. Of the two, the Waltz story seems to be more supportable, but thinly so. At least Waltz existed, and being a lifetime miner possessed gold ore and an alleged first-person yarn about where it came from when he died. That's at least a start for the curious. The carved stones? These rocks are intriguing only because nothing definitive about them has been established that most people are willing to accept, although many solutions have been offered. Here's yet another mystery solver with yet another take on those and where they came from:

 

[somehiker]

Anything's possible of course, but other than the fact that these two stories each focus on well-fed but unverified rumors of alleged hidden riches in central Arizona, there isn't anything that links the two except speculation IMO. Of the two, the Waltz story seems to be more supportable, but thinly so. At least Waltz existed, and being a lifetime miner possessed gold ore and an alleged first-person yarn about where it came from when he died. That's at least a start for the curious. The carved stones? These rocks are intriguing only because nothing definitive about them has been established that most people are willing to accept, although many solutions have been offered. Here's yet another mystery solver with yet another take on those and where they came from:

I ran in to Ron out at the Massacre Grounds about 14 yrs ago, well before I developed any interest in the stone maps.
We spent some time talking about the Massacre story, but not the stones as I recall. I still remember his enthusiasm and the way he went on about the Peralta connections to the mountains. Glad to see he's still active in the hunt.

More on Ron:

Tom Kollenborn Chronicles: Eagle of the Superstition Mountain

 

[Oroblanco]

Somehiker wrote

Take your vitriol elsewhere Roy.
I'd rather see this thread remain open for non-confrontational adult discussion, and sharing of information, rather than see it closed like the other thread was.

Vitriol? What vitriol? I was not the one who popped off with such things as :

I am not interested in getting in a pissing contest with you, so take your attitude elswhere.

All you do is attack and stir up dog doo, never contributing anything of value, I got you figured out

The only one spouting "vitriol" is Alan. It is not opinion to state a simple fact, that the PSMs are not related to the LDM. There is no evidence to link them other than the BELIEFS of those who support the theories. As you yourself put it, the "belief" that the Peraltas created the stone maps, the "belief" that the stone maps are maps of the Superstition mountains, and the "belief" that Waltz's mine must have been the same mine of the Peralta saga.

You have been posting some great research, as have Steve and others, so far however it still doesn't link up with the LDM.

 

[Al D]

Somehiker wrote


Vitriol? What vitriol? I was not the one who popped off with such things as :





The only one spouting "vitriol" is Alan. It is not opinion to state a simple fact, that the PSMs are not related to the LDM. There is no evidence to link them other than the BELIEFS of those who support the theories. As you yourself put it, the "belief" that the Peraltas created the stone maps, the "belief" that the stone maps are maps of the Superstition mountains, and the "belief" that Waltz's mine must have been the same mine of the Peralta saga.

You have been posting some great research, as have Steve and others, so far however it still doesn't link up with the LDM.

I don’t think you know the difference between an opinion and a fact, time to put you on the ignore list

 

[somehiker]

It's been years since I read de Vaca's Relacion, but as I recall, my takeaway from it was that Esteban was the key player of the four survivors during their odyssey. He's the one who seemed to most influence the various Natives along the way. He's the one who was sent ahead to grease the skids. Of course, de Vaca was a Conquistador and the the author, and Esteban was a mere slave, so ... Although it's debatable and probably unverifiable, the group likely followed the Rio Grande north to perhaps the Caballo Mountains latitude, more or less, before turning back to a more southerly course, finding old trails south and west before dropping into Mexico. I remember de Vaca's mention of five emerald arrowheads and gold rumors after the party cleared Texas. May have been wishful thinking on the part of the Conquistador, and those arrowheads may have been a green chert or malachite, but there are pesky rumors of emeralds in SW New Mexico tied to Fisher's Atocha recoveries. Quien sabe?

Re Esteban, aka Estavanico, there used to be an interesting website dedicated to the study of his life (The Estavanico Society) that had curious information about him. Unfortunately, that website is dead. The home page still exists, consisting of a boilerplate summary, but the more probing links have all been gutted. Along the same lines, a new book about Esteban was released a year or so ago that provides alternative material about the slave, supposedly including an argument that he was not killed at Zuni. I haven't read the book yet, but I'm getting more tempted. [[Edit: just ordered it.]] https://smile.amazon.com/Esteban-African-Slave-Explored-America/dp/0826359817/?tag=treasurenet01-20 There are local rumors about Esteban in the Santa Rita del Cobre/Pinos Altos Range in NM - not as part of the de Vaca party, but about his scouting for Marcos de Niza in 1539.

Our impressions of Esteban's abilities and actions are the same. Question is, how much of what he learned from the locals, as their journey progressed, did he share with the others ? There's no question that he subsequently led the DaNiza expedition northward into Arizona from Corazones, where he and his companions had previously turned southward on their path from Texas. To me, that suggests Esteban's information was received from the natives within that same locale, with directions which initially led them northward from there.
The green arrowheads may have also been peridot or even of a high quality green obsidian IMO. I'd have to go back to De Vaca's account to check, but as I recall, the mention of gold was in regard to evidence of gold,silver and other mineral deposits which they had taken note of, or heard about during that phase of their journey.
I was aware of the Estavanico Society website, and had it saved to my links file......too bad it's been gutted .
Good buy on the book though.