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Did OME lost the Black Swan case?

Panfilo,
The period from the mid 1500's through the late 1600's in "New Granada", current day Colombia was a travesty. The population of the region was reduced by disease, enslavement, war and forced slavery by 90%. It's hard to fathom, that 9 out of very 10 indigenous people died due to the Spanish quest for wealth in the form of gold, silver and gems. The remaining "survivors" often were moved to mines, more commonly silver, where the Spanish introduced this wonderful new mercury amalgamation process to increase the total to nearly 1 billion troy ounces in Peru and Bolivia ( Potosi). The downside was you would died of mercury poisoning within 2 years.
We talk about "blood diamonds" today, which is nothing compared to this period of history in South America. This material was then usually loaded ultimately in Cartagena and set sail on the treasure fleet routes most readers of this board know well.

Ossie, how can the people of Spain justify even stepping into a court to ask for this "property". The only way they should be allowed in the discussion if they planned on giving 100% back to these counties as reparation. Instead they pay their legal pit bull James Gould to continue the Colonialism 500 years later.
 

Panfilo, Vox could clarify a lot of things about your question (why the hell did they not try to recover it after Claudio announced to the world 20 years ago he had found it? ). The fact is that a high official from the spanish ministry of Culture was organizing a recovery over "that Mercedes" (close to the Portugal´s shore). He did with the collaboration of a very good knew spanish "treasure hunter", and the information gatered by Vox. It was an operation "among friends". This is information, not a rumour, but probably you will never find a file about it in the Ministry of Culture.
 

Teredo Navalis said:
Panfilo,
The period from the mid 1500's through the late 1600's in "New Granada", current day Colombia was a travesty. The population of the region was reduced by disease, enslavement, war and forced slavery by 90%. It's hard to fathom, that 9 out of very 10 indigenous people died due to the Spanish quest for wealth in the form of gold, silver and gems. The remaining "survivors" often were moved to mines, more commonly silver, where the Spanish introduced this wonderful new mercury amalgamation process to increase the total to nearly 1 billion troy ounces in Peru and Bolivia ( Potosi). The downside was you would died of mercury poisoning within 2 years.
We talk about "blood diamonds" today, which is nothing compared to this period of history in South America. This material was then usually loaded ultimately in Cartagena and set sail on the treasure fleet routes most readers of this board know well.

Ossie, how can the people of Spain justify even stepping into a court to ask for this "property". The only way they should be allowed in the discussion if they planned on giving 100% back to these counties as reparation. Instead they pay their legal pit bull James Gould to continue the Colonialism 500 years later.
Click to expand...
The people of Spain are asking for there old property back from another colonial country the USA !!! Who is going to sell all the items, AND
NOT GIVE THEN BACK ! So how the hell does Odyssey help any of the South American country's :icon_scratch:
You keep using the excuse of Colonialism against Spain to Justifie to yourself its then find for you to sell artifacts for your own profit !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
How HYPOCRITICAL
Panfilo, How does a US company selling old Spanish colonial artifacts benefit Columbia :dontknow: :dontknow:
Spain is not going to sell any artifacts ( coins) So who will profit from these BLOOD Diamonds :icon_scratch: :icon_scratch: :icon_scratch:
There should be a total band on any sale of these items, In protest for the way the Spaniards treated the indigenous people !
Just like they do with the sale of blood diamonds.
Ossy
 

MORE AND BEYOND OSSY said:
Teredo Navalis said:
Panfilo,
The period from the mid 1500's through the late 1600's in "New Granada", current day Colombia was a travesty. The population of the region was reduced by disease, enslavement, war and forced slavery by 90%. It's hard to fathom, that 9 out of very 10 indigenous people died due to the Spanish quest for wealth in the form of gold, silver and gems. The remaining "survivors" often were moved to mines, more commonly silver, where the Spanish introduced this wonderful new mercury amalgamation process to increase the total to nearly 1 billion troy ounces in Peru and Bolivia ( Potosi). The downside was you would died of mercury poisoning within 2 years.
We talk about "blood diamonds" today, which is nothing compared to this period of history in South America. This material was then usually loaded ultimately in Cartagena and set sail on the treasure fleet routes most readers of this board know well.

Ossie, how can the people of Spain justify even stepping into a court to ask for this "property". The only way they should be allowed in the discussion if they planned on giving 100% back to these counties as reparation. Instead they pay their legal pit bull James Gould to continue the Colonialism 500 years later.
Click to expand...
The people of Spain are asking for there old property back from another colonial country the USA !!! Who is going to sell all the items, AND
NOT GIVE THEN BACK ! So how the hell does Odyssey help any of the South American country's :icon_scratch:
You keep using the excuse of Colonialism against Spain to Justifie to yourself its then find for you to sell artifacts for your own profit !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
How HYPOCRITICAL
Panfilo, How does a US company selling old Spanish colonial artifacts benefit Columbia :dontknow: :dontknow:
Spain is not going to sell any artifacts ( coins) So who will profit from these BLOOD Diamonds :icon_scratch: :icon_scratch: :icon_scratch:
There should be a total band on any sale of these items, In protest for the way the Spaniards treated the indigenous people !
Just like they do with the sale of blood diamonds.
Ossy
Click to expand...

Ossy, You keep beating a dead horse. Please tell me why anyone should get something for nothing ?
Did Spain make any attempt to Salvage this wreck?
Did Spain spend any money on the salvage ?
What this case should come down to is the law of the sea. If something is lost ? The finder should retain possession. :BangHead:
 

old man said:
MORE AND BEYOND OSSY said:
Teredo Navalis said:
Panfilo,
The period from the mid 1500's through the late 1600's in "New Granada", current day Colombia was a travesty. The population of the region was reduced by disease, enslavement, war and forced slavery by 90%. It's hard to fathom, that 9 out of very 10 indigenous people died due to the Spanish quest for wealth in the form of gold, silver and gems. The remaining "survivors" often were moved to mines, more commonly silver, where the Spanish introduced this wonderful new mercury amalgamation process to increase the total to nearly 1 billion troy ounces in Peru and Bolivia ( Potosi). The downside was you would died of mercury poisoning within 2 years.
We talk about "blood diamonds" today, which is nothing compared to this period of history in South America. This material was then usually loaded ultimately in Cartagena and set sail on the treasure fleet routes most readers of this board know well.

Ossie, how can the people of Spain justify even stepping into a court to ask for this "property". The only way they should be allowed in the discussion if they planned on giving 100% back to these counties as reparation. Instead they pay their legal pit bull James Gould to continue the Colonialism 500 years later.
Click to expand...
The people of Spain are asking for there old property back from another colonial country the USA !!! Who is going to sell all the items, AND
NOT GIVE THEN BACK ! So how the hell does Odyssey help any of the South American country's :icon_scratch:
You keep using the excuse of Colonialism against Spain to Justifie to yourself its then find for you to sell artifacts for your own profit !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
How HYPOCRITICAL
Panfilo, How does a US company selling old Spanish colonial artifacts benefit Columbia :dontknow: :dontknow:
Spain is not going to sell any artifacts ( coins) So who will profit from these BLOOD Diamonds :icon_scratch: :icon_scratch: :icon_scratch:
There should be a total band on any sale of these items, In protest for the way the Spaniards treated the indigenous people !
Just like they do with the sale of blood diamonds.
Ossy
Click to expand...

Ossy, You keep beating a dead horse. Please tell me why anyone should get something for nothing ?
Did Spain make any attempt to Salvage this wreck?
Did Spain spend any money on the salvage ?
What this case should come down to is the law of the sea. If something is lost ? The finder should retain possession. :BangHead:
Click to expand...
You are the ones Beating a dead horse, wake up and smell the roses :o
STOP using excuses and Tell it as it is ! YOU JUST WANT TO MAKE MONEY :BangHead:
 

Ossy, Man up. You still haven't answered my 3 questions.
I do agree with your point. It is all about greed. The GREED comes from the side that wants something for nothing. Not from the people that spend millions of dollars in research and salvage.

I guess GREED had nothing to do with putting people into slavery to mine those precious metals and gems either ???? :icon_pirat:
 

It is very easy to get sidetracked from one subject to the next here so let us concentrate on the points Ossy has been making recently, just in these past few posts:
1) Ossy does not agree with me that Odyssey displayed high moral standards taking the coins to a judge rather than selling them quietly as nobody knew they had them. Interesting perspective.
2) Ossy believes Mr Stemm “has something to hide” regarding the Mercedes. Not sure what he means as they have submitted to Spain and to the courts a super high definition photo mosaic of the site.
3) He says Odyssey “looted” the Mercedes. A premature affirmation as the trial is still pending.
4) Ossy asks as a Colombian what my interest in this matter is. I respond
5) Then in this last post all the issues get mixed up.I will only refer to this phrase:” So how the hell does Odyssey help any of the South American country's?”
You are confusing several issues Ossy. First and foremost I am not defending Odyssey here in this forum, it’s just very troubling to read the Spanish press’ view of the Mercedes case, reaffirmed by your similar posts that are not factually correct and contain false logic and have the legal issues wrong. Example: if Odyssey (or you for that matter) recovers a Spanish flag ship that was on a commercial mission when it sank in international waters, and they recover the cargo and take it to an Admiralty judge in the US, there has been no wrongdoing, no laws broken, no “looting” as you call it. That is international law whether you like it or not. Ask any good or mediocre Admiralty lawyer if you do not believe me. It’s not that “Odyssey is helping any South American country” that is not the issue here Ossy, the issue is that Odyssey has acted abiding to international law 100% and Spain is accusing Odyssey of stealing its cultural patrimony so many of us South Americans are and will protest because:1) it is not Spain’s patrimony, they are coins belonging to private merchants whose descendants are claiming the coins. And 2) Spain never owned the coins to begin with except for the 24% the King had on board which he should claim. Perhaps now you will understand why the “colonialism against Spain” argument is valid: Spain is claiming as theirs something that never belonged to them and that Ossy is not right, at least that is how some of us were brought up. OK?
Panfilo
 

old man said:
Ossy, Man up. You still haven't answered my 3 questions.
I do agree with your point. It is all about greed. The GREED comes from the side that wants something for nothing. Not from the people that spend millions of dollars in research and salvage.

I guess GREED had nothing to do with putting people into slavery to mine those precious metals and gems either ???? :icon_pirat:
Click to expand...
Old man, Are you talking about current greed or 400 years ago ???
Did Spain make any attempt to salvage the wreck : NO ! they expressly instructed Odyssey not to touch the Mercedes. Just like the Arizona !
Did Spain spend any money on salvage : NO refer question one ! They have currently spent money on salvaging the coins through the courts !
Why should someone get something for nothing: Firstly Odyssey made their own decision to hunt down the Mercedes for their own personal gain
that's the risk they take off their own free will, as part of their enterprise ( Treasure Hunting )
They just got to cocky and didn't think Spain would Challenge .
Ossy
 

Panfilo said:
It is very easy to get sidetracked from one subject to the next here so let us concentrate on the points Ossy has been making recently, just in these past few posts:
1) Ossy does not agree with me that Odyssey displayed high moral standards taking the coins to a judge rather than selling them quietly as nobody knew they had them. Interesting perspective.
2) Ossy believes Mr Stemm “has something to hide” regarding the Mercedes. Not sure what he means as they have submitted to Spain and to the courts a super high definition photo mosaic of the site.
3) He says Odyssey “looted” the Mercedes. A premature affirmation as the trial is still pending.
4) Ossy asks as a Colombian what my interest in this matter is. I respond
5) Then in this last post all the issues get mixed up.I will only refer to this phrase:” So how the hell does Odyssey help any of the South American country's?”
You are confusing several issues Ossy. First and foremost I am not defending Odyssey here in this forum, it’s just very troubling to read the Spanish press’ view of the Mercedes case, reaffirmed by your similar posts that are not factually correct and contain false logic and have the legal issues wrong. Example: if Odyssey (or you for that matter) recovers a Spanish flag ship that was on a commercial mission when it sank in international waters, and they recover the cargo and take it to an Admiralty judge in the US, there has been no wrongdoing, no laws broken, no “looting” as you call it. That is international law whether you like it or not. Ask any good or mediocre Admiralty lawyer if you do not believe me. It’s not that “Odyssey is helping any South American country” that is not the issue here Ossy, the issue is that Odyssey has acted abiding to international law 100% and Spain is accusing Odyssey of stealing its cultural patrimony so many of us South Americans are and will protest because:1) it is not Spain’s patrimony, they are coins belonging to private merchants whose descendants are claiming the coins. And 2) Spain never owned the coins to begin with except for the 24% the King had on board which he should claim. Perhaps now you will understand why the “colonialism against Spain” argument is valid: Spain is claiming as theirs something that never belonged to them and that Ossy is not right, at least that is how some of us were brought up. OK?
Panfilo
Click to expand...
Panfilo, do you have these super high definition photo mosaic, you can post here ? So we can all see them ?
As you know the Spanish archaeologist inspected the photos and had no doubt of them coming from the Mercedes, Lets see them. I sure you have contacts
with Odyssey.
Did they come from International waters, not a chance ! taken from Portuguese waters, You bet !
You have three US judges agreeing with Spain , suck it up and lets move on.
Ossy
 

trinidad said:
Panfilo, Vox could clarify a lot of things about your question (why the hell did they not try to recover it after Claudio announced to the world 20 years ago he had found it? ). The fact is that a high official from the spanish ministry of Culture was organizing a recovery over "that Mercedes" (close to the Portugal´s shore). He did with the collaboration of a very good knew spanish "treasure hunter", and the information gatered by Vox. It was an operation "among friends". This is information, not a rumour, but probably you will never find a file about it in the Ministry of Culture.
Click to expand...

Trini, we begin with clarifying facts palpable, evidence. Explain how it was possible for a ship of 70 meters (Odyssey Explorer) were walking through the Strait of Gibraltar for months without any naval and police authority bother him and without any legal permission. In Spain we all know that there were "special" orders. Who gave these orders? And other "special" orders which will be discussed later.


http://translate.google.com/transla...d-de-los-barcos-de-odyssey_1633330963176.html

Trini, by the official documents of the Spanish Civil Guard, Luis Valero is known to oppose the presence of Odyssey in Spanish waters, and says the same Civil Guard, Odyssey had a permit from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs "that lacked validity." Lighter impossible. It's the same police who said that. Stir more mud?
 

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Vox veritas said:
trinidad said:
Panfilo, Vox could clarify a lot of things about your question (why the hell did they not try to recover it after Claudio announced to the world 20 years ago he had found it? ). The fact is that a high official from the spanish ministry of Culture was organizing a recovery over "that Mercedes" (close to the Portugal´s shore). He did with the collaboration of a very good knew spanish "treasure hunter", and the information gatered by Vox. It was an operation "among friends". This is information, not a rumour, but probably you will never find a file about it in the Ministry of Culture.
Click to expand...

Trini, we begin with clarifying facts palpable, evidence. Explain how it was possible for a ship of 70 meters (Odyssey Explorer) were walking through the Strait of Gibraltar for months without any naval and police authority bother him and without any legal permission. In Spain we all know that there were "special" orders. Who gave these orders? And other "special" orders which will be discussed later.
Cheers VV

http://translate.google.com/transla...d-de-los-barcos-de-odyssey_1633330963176.html
Click to expand...
Claudio, when you found the Mercedes, What did you actually find? Cannon? coins? So you knew it was the Mercedes.
I am Interested to know and I sure other people here, are as well.
I don't have to worry about saying Odyssey had free rain in Portuguese waters for months, to do as they pleased. Hopefully the corrupt politician
will be found out and brought to justice.
Ossy
 

Claudio, when you found the Mercedes, What did you actually find? Cannon? coins? So you knew it was the Mercedes.
I am Interested to know and I sure other people here, are as well.
I don't have to worry about saying Odyssey had free rain in Portuguese waters for months, to do as they pleased. Hopefully the corrupt politician
will be found out and brought to justice.
Ossy

[/quote]

Ossy, as I say in my book Galleons and sunken treasure, from nautical data for several Spanish officers, commanders of the four Spanish frigates that participated in the battle of October 5, 1804, by indications of an expert fisherman (trawling) and indications of Portuguese Navy officials in 1982 we found one of the target (several cannons). Very well could be the Mercedes.
About the fisherman, this person gave me a map prepared by the same fisherman, scale 1:50.000 with indications of wrecks in southern Portugal to considerable depth. On the morning of April 4, 2006, Spanish police took away from my house this map. So far I have not been returned and I do not know where is. ???
 

Ossy et al,
I should have clarified my position for the Black Swan find and OMEX. I believe the countries of South and Central America should be the beneficiaries of this and further finds. A blanket 70/30 split (estimate) should go to the people of the country/ land of origin, with the lessor amount to the salvage organization. All culturally significant items ( patrimony/heritage) should be returned to the country of origin. If remains of Spanish Military are found and or Spanish patrimony, it should be treated with dignity and returned to Spain. If Spain wants to be the salvor and send ships to the Caribbean, it is free to do so and become the salvor.
But please don't continue the insult of finishing the rape and pillage of the countries involved under the cover and flag of sovereign immunity or the cronies from UNESCO.
 

"The opera ain't over 'till the fat lady sings!" or "it ain't over 'till it's over" or better still "you don't count your chickens 'till the eggs have hatched" or Alexandre something closer to home: "Do prato à boca perde-se a sopa."
Panfilo
 

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