Digging on Government Land

[starsplitter]

Greetings to All:

So, national forests and parks are off limits to digging? I have read several times in the forum that this is the case. And, the silly you can detect, but not dig. On the one hand, I understand the need to protect national treasures (as in the landscape not just what's under it).

I have gathered from reading that in other countries (such as the UK and Germany), that you can detect and dig - that there are laws designed to permit detecting, allow digging, put finds/money in your pocket AND protect national archeological interests/treasures.

If I understood correctly, in Germany you have to take a course of some kind in order to qualify for a permit. I see nothing wrong with this - an inconvenience for sure, but if it opens doors to otherwise inaccessible federal lands?

What's up with the United States? Has anybody heard anything along the lines above?

Starsplitter

 

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[jeff of pa]

Greetings to All:

So, national forests and parks are off limits to digging? I have read several times in the forum that this is the case. And, the silly you can detect, but not dig. On the one hand, I understand the need to protect national treasures (as in the landscape not just what's under it).

I have gathered from reading that in other countries (such as the UK and Germany), that you can detect and dig - that there are laws designed to permit detecting, allow digging, put finds/money in your pocket AND protect national archeological interests/treasures.

If I understood correctly, in Germany you have to take a course of some kind in order to qualify for a permit. I see nothing wrong with this - an inconvenience for sure, but if it opens doors to otherwise inaccessible federal lands?

What's up with the United States? Has anybody heard anything along the lines above?

Starsplitter

In the U.S. you most likely need to be in Government,
Have so much money you can Buy & sell someone in Government,
or an Archeologist.

 

[starsplitter]

Jeff:

Okay... translation, buy some night vision equipment?

Starsplitter

 

[jeff of pa]

Jeff:

Okay... translation, buy some night vision equipment?

Starsplitter

LOL

But No, In other words,
Find some place it's Legal Or become an Archeologist,
Politician or Billionaire.

 

[CWnut]

The quickest way to learn the regulations about digging on national parks is to just go ahead and do it. In short order you will become a field expert about national park rules and regulations

 

[THing4CSA]

Hi Starsplitter, Jeff in PA, and all my TH'ing Friends

Searching on Government land is difficult but not an impossible thing to accomplish. although Jeff may be partially correct I don't believe many of the folks out there in the Government or with tons of money will give anyone a 'Get out of jail' pass. I have searched many US Military bases across the US and it all comes down to being smart and spending time with the correct offices. If you find a US Military base that you would like to check out you will have to visit the person in charge of the 'Public Relations Office'. You will have to visit them during their office hours which in the Military is normally for 8 am until 3 pm. Do not go in with an 'I deserve to search anywhere' attitude as they will tell you no. You have to present yourself in a light that is on par with going in for a job interview. You have to impress the Officer or Noncommissioned Officer that what you are doing is to recover items that were lost, that you will cover carefully and completely every one of your holes (I hope you read this Ron), and that if you do find anything of Historic Interest you will turn this in to the Public Relations Office. One of the US Military bases required my TH'ing buddy and myself to sign a 'Release of Liability' due to the fact that this installation used and still uses lots of live munitions, including air dropped bombs, explosives, and munitions of every description. Before you even get started you have to be aware that there are things in the ground that will kill or injure you and guess what the US Military will not be held responsible for your injuries or recovery expenses.

As for searching in US National Parks; you can almost 100% of the time FORGET ABOUT IT. I have also read about those that claim to have gotten written approvals to search a certain beach within a US National Park, but my experience has always been NEGATIVE when it comes to dealing with the US National Park service. I find it to be a waste of time to explain anything to the head set mentality that is shown to the public. Please allow me to provide you with one of my experiences dealing with the US Park Service: While on a relocation move from Reno Nevada to New Orleans LA in April 1989 we decided to drive and see the many Natural and Historic sites along the way. We had mapped our route so we could take in the many neat sites and one we decided on was the Great Petrified Forest, as we entered the front gate we were asked if we had any rocks or fossils and Metal Detectors. I explained that we were traveling cross county and that yes we had some of all of the above. We were requested to pull over and that they would have to inspect our vehicle. When we opened our trunk they were horrified at the amount of fossils, rocks and my metal detector. We were then told or should I say we were read the riot act, basically we were being warned that we could not remove or disturb any rocks or formations within the park. I informed the park ranger that we were not there to do any of those activities and that we only wished to visit the park and see the beauty of the 'Rock forest'. They then jumped on me for having a metal detector in my vehicle and that just bringing it into a US National Park was illegal. I was also informed that I would not be allowed to use it and that if I was found in the park using my detector I would be arrested, my detector would be seized, I would go to jail for a while, I would also be fined several thousand dollars. I again explained that I was traveling to New Orleans, I was aware of the rules against using a detector within any US National Park and that I had no intention nor the time to use a detector while visiting their park. They had to discuss this several times with several different rangers and then they decided to call in their boss. After again explaining what we were doing and what our plans were regarding our visit to the park a decision was made (believe it or not) first the park service provided plastic baggies for all our rocks and fossils, which was fine with me except that I had two very large pieces of petrified tree that I found in NV that they did not have a bag large enough for so they put stickers on them and said that would be the best they could do, second I would need to bag up all my battery packs for my detector, again no problem as I was not planning to use it in the park anyway. We were told that we would also need to exit from the same side of the park as we had entered, our plans were to go right through the park as it was on our route and coming back would add about an hour to our time, they said that they would call ahead and inform the other exit that we would be exiting at their location and provided them with a list of what was bagged and we were then allowed to enter the park to enjoy the remaining shortened visit as our timeline was short and this had taken all of an hour to finalize. We took pictures of rock formation and rock trees and the park itself was wonderful, just had to wonder about the mental cases in charge of the place.

Now I do want to touch on the way things are done in Germany as I was there in 1973 - 1979 and used my detector to find and recover many nice items. The main thing most TH'ers fail to realize is that not all land is free or available to search. One of the things that is different about Germany is that they have protected any land that was developed, fortified, built on by the Romans. There are ways around this but of course there is a catch; first you have to go to a University to locate the office that is doing research in an area that you want to TH; then you have to become educated in how they intend to search the area. Normally the TH'er is allowed to locate items but not recover; the archaeologist takes care of the recovery. If what is recovered is not Roman or Early Germanic, or what ever era they were looking for the item is given to the TH'er (unless it is of historic value). The university holds all the trump cards and the TH'er is merely an on looker. Here again if you spend time with one university you will eventually be given more ability to search and recover but you will still need to present your finds to the person in charge of the search team, and if it is important you will be required to turn over your finds. So much history is lost because people find it illegally and keep it for themselves that it may get to a point that possession of a detector may be out lawed. As I was in the US Army during my stay in Germany I searched many US Bases and located a lot of WWI and WWII items, including my one and only 40 pound bomb. I did search a few private homes and properties but not speaking German hindered me. My suggestion if you want to search in any foreign county either learn the language, have an interpretor, or be ready to be told to leave or be arrested. There are areas in France and Germany (and elsewere) that had so many battles that it is still unsafe to enter, I would avoid these areas unless you really want to take your life into your own hands. I was lucky with my bomb but it sure could have gone bad. My bomb was part of a 500 pound cluster bomb that was dropped in June or July 1944 on a group of a dozen Panzer tanks that were caught out in the open. They were attempting to take cover in a nearby wooded area but were hit with 'White Phosphor' and disabled. The story was provided to me from an eye witness who was a mere child of eight or nine, he stated to me that to that day (September 24th 1978) he could still hear the screams of the tankers as they attempted to exit their burning tanks. All the tanks were destroyed and all the tankers were killed.

I plan to one day visit both Germany and England to TH for relics and hope that all the laws are made a bit easier to deal with as England has done with their law.

How soon the US will follow is anyone's guess. I do like what occurred at the Manassas Battle and the Little Big Horn Battle Parks. The US Park Service needed to pave an area of the Manassas Park next to the 'Stone House' (those that have visited the park know where the Stone House is and where the parking lot was put). The US Park Service did not have the funds to hire archaeologist to search the entire area so they invited TH'ers by lottery to locate targets (No Digging of anything located) and had archaeologist recover the items.
The Battle of the Little Big Horn has had a book written about it and the items recovered, but suffice it to say they did the same as for inviting TH'ers in to locate targets and archaeologists to recover. This is the type of baby steps it will take to open all US Government lands for TH'ing, but we are years away from this happening.

I will continue to seek out private property and recover my two or three Civil War relics and be content with that.

Be Safe and have fun in all you do, but do right always!
Dave Mork
'Digger-Dave'
THing4CSA
PS: Remember; Don't leave it in the ground!

 

[starsplitter]

THing:

Thanks for the detailed response. I guess I better not take my detector with me this summer.

Starsplitter

 

[THing4CSA]

Hi Charles Hutson (E.Tn.)
You are either experienced with the rules or are a US Park Ranger. I say this because anyone that tells people to go ahead and do it and then find out the problems they have caused themselves is off the mark. First most (but not all) US National Parks have a website and they will inform you of what is OK to do in the park as well as what is Illegal to do. Metal Detecting is almost always one of the first items listed. If you opt to visit a US National Park, most (but not all) have signs posted that will inform you again what is legal and illegal to do within the park. The Manassas Battle Field (Not to pick on them but I have visited them and read the signs they have posted) spells out in no uncertain verbage that if you are caught with a metal detector on the park property you will be 1. arrested 2. lose any and all items you have on you that are considered park property, 3. face a $10,000 fine, 4. will lose your detector and all gear, 5. could spend the next year to four years as a member of US Prison system (you could end up in jail).

Now as for the comments made by Starsplitter, the above applies to you and using night vision equipment does not make it right when you know you are doing something that is wrong or illegal; you also need to do your home work and read the following:

THE FMDAC’S CODE OF ETHICS


* Treasure Hunter's Code of Ethics

I will always check federal, state, county and local laws before searching. It is my responsibility to know the law.

I will respect private property and will not enter private property without the owner's permission. Where possible, such permission will be in writing.

I will take care to refill any holes and try not to leave any damage.

I will remove and dispose of any and all trash and litter that I find.

I will appreciate and protect our inheritance of natural resources, wildlife, and private property.

I will, as an ambassador for the hobby, use thoughtfulness, consideration and courtesy at all times.

I will work to help bring unity to our hobby by working with any organization of any geographic area that may have problems that will limit their ability to peacefully pursue the hobby.

I will leave gates as found.

I will build fires in designated or safe places only.

I will report to the proper authorities any individuals who enter and/or remove artifacts from federal parks or state preserves.

I copied this from the Lost Treasure web site and share it with all you TH'ers that have forgotten what this hobby is all about. You have to do the right thing or you will risk losing the ability to enjoy a great hobby.

I am not here to point at anyone and say you are wrong; I am here to attempt to help educate and explain TH'ing 101 in as basic a way that I can. If I have stepped on your toes, I do apologize for any hurt feelings, but If I can get one person to do what is right and not 'Just go into a US National Park and detect' I feel as if I have gotten my point across. The newspapers have articles all the time that place a negative spin on our hobby as we are 'Grave Robbers', Thief's, and basically robbers. How many articles are written about returns made of items? As a hobby we need to do what is right or face the fact that our hobby will become completely controlled by the City, State, or Federal Governments.

As a closing statement; all you TH'ers out there that continue to illegally TH any property, be it privately or Fedearally owned you will eventually be caught and when you do you will pay dearly for your actions. Not a threat just stating the facts. Do right and you need fear nothing else.
Thanks
Dave Mork
'Digger-Dave'
THing4CSA
PS: Remember; Don't leave it in the ground!

 

[THing4CSA]

Hi Starsplitter and all my TH'ing Friends

I would still take my Detector with me on vacation as you never know when you will have a once in a life time shot to recover something. You may be at a beach that has a storm remove five feet of sand and exposes fifty years of lost items or a flood washes away an area that reviles something worth recovering. You just need to remember that if you are going into a US National Park that they expect the worst from those that enter a park with a metal detector. They only see the negative as the positive does not make it to the newspapers. I would like to see a survey of how many TH'ers in the website have returned items to the owners 1. with reward and 2. without reward. I think this would be something to forward to all the major newspapers. I am aware that it will never be printed but maybe if it were to be presented to a couple of local newspapers the larger ones would also print it. Just my thoughts on a Sunday morning. :-)
Be safe and have fun in all you do but first of all do right in all you do!
Thanks
Dave Mork
'Digger-Dave'
THing4CSA
PS: Remember; Don't leave it in the ground!

 

[jeff of pa]

Hi Starsplitter, Jeff in PA, and all my TH'ing Friends

(contents removed from quote to save space)

Be Safe and have fun in all you do, but do right always!
Dave Mork
'Digger-Dave'
THing4CSA
PS: Remember; Don't leave it in the ground!

EXCELLENT POST DAVE.

Thanks !

I'v Tried to search a Local Military Reservation.
I forget what rank the Person was I talked to
but his words I remember.

"I can't Give you permission, Because of Unexploded Ordinance
could be anywhere"
I should have went into Fruther Details, But felt I was wasting his time.

He did Suggest I Write a Letter & go through Channels,
But instead just Thanked him for his time & left.

I wish I would have asked what would happen if I
just went for it & got Caught.

Asked to Leave ? Arrested ? Etc.
as his attitude did suggest he was just afraid to
say yes because of Risks to life & Limb, but
as I said 20/20 Hindsight.

I did advise him I was after Historical Items & he said
he was sure the area I was intrested in would be very
productive.

 

[jeff of pa]

an Intresting Side Note.

This Military base is trying to Get several Thousand acres of State Game Land that is just north of the Base.

They are trying to assure the People that the land would
still be open to Recreation (Hunting, trapping, Hiking, fishing)
but people arn't going for it.

Maby this would be a good time to Re Try.
They may want to make it look like they are open
to Recreation of All types for P.R. ?

 

[THing4CSA]

Hi Jeff of PA
You may have a point about the US Military attempting to put a positive spin on what it is that they are doing with the additional land. I for one would still opt to go to the Public Affairs Office and see if I could get something in writing allowing me to legally search on US Military property. I'm a chicken when it comes to trespassing, besides knowing I am doing something that is illegal makes me think twice as I don't like the idea of sharing a jail cell with Bubba.
I just want to state that if you do right you will get approval to search the areas of the base that are safe (safe for the most part anyway). After searching several US Military bases in the US I have come to the realization that there is live ammo everywhere. I have found some outside movie houses, on parade fields, outside hospitals, barracks, you name the spot I have found it there. I do also have to say that I have found lots of silver coins, gold and silver jewelry, as well as Military artifacts. The stuff is out there so you just need to spend some time to find and recover some of it.

I have a copy of the Release of Liability that I use if anyone is interested PM me and I will send it to you. THing4CSA at Yahoo is one of my email addresses or my name at gmail.
Thanks
Dave Mork
'Digger-Dave'
THing4CSA
PS: Remember; Don't leave it in the ground!

 

[jeff of pa]

I personally wouldn't be able to Concentrate to search
IF I trespassed. I wear Headphones always.
& would be looking over my shoulder Continuously.
Don't think I'd have to worry about Bubba.
The Stroke I'd have if someone Tapped me on the Shoulder
while Trespassing would take care of that.

Unexploded Ordinance Dosn't Scare me. Arrest Or stroke
Scares me

I'll have to remember "Public Affairs" Next time I'm down that way
& stop in.

THANKS !
Jeff

 

[CWnut]

THing4CSA

my comment was meant to convey the message that detecting nat'l parks would get you in trouble in a hurry. I apologize if they were misunderstood. Thanks for the good response.

 

[TreasureTales]

I think the comments about "just do it" and night vision gear were jokes .. at least I hope they were. As far as detecting National Parks - NO! Don't even think about it - big trouble if you do. I think they could put a wire crimped tag on your detector like they do guns, if they wanted to be sure it was never used. Sheesh. As far as detecting National Forests - Inquire at the office nearest the area you are interested in. As far as BLM lands - Inquire at the nearest office of the area you are interested in. Some offices are a little more lax than others. So often if depends on your demeanor and the mood of the guy/gal in charge that day. Always ask first and you will not have a problem because you will know if it's legal or illegal in that area. And be sure to get the full name or badge number of the person giving you the info - especially if they say it's OK to detect.

 

[starsplitter]

OKAY, FOR THingCSA

 

[starsplitter]

Greetings:

To all those who need to breathe... in... out, in... out, in... out...

Oh, and I forgot to mention it... the National Park Service, in close and secret cooperation with the Office of Homeland Security, is closely monitoring TreasureNet for any hint of a sneak metal detector attack. It's true! True, I tell you! They've tapped my phone... even my brain! Yes! My brain!

Where's the aluminum foil?

Osama bin Starsplitter

 

[jeff of pa]

Okay, I will try posting this again.

LIKE THE LAW IS GOING TO BE ANY DIFFERENT AT NIGHT?

FOR ALL WHO READ MY NIGHT VISION COMMENT - FOR CRYING OUT LOUD, EASE UP! IT WAS A JOKE PEOPLE - A JOKE! A STATEMENT WRITTEN TONGUE IN CHEEK, YA KNOW GEE WHIZ.

PS: BEFORE I START WWIII. I AM NOT ATTACKING ANYBODY... MARY MOTHER OF JESUS, GEE WHIZ.

Starsplitter it was Obvious to me you were Just making a Point in a joking way.
This is Why I didn't delete it.

there is
No reason to explain yourself to anyone as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Rob in KS]

I would hope that they are as zealous about the people who leave trash, abandoned cars, start unsafe campfires. I hear stories from a friend who hikes in the Tonto National Forest.
He said they often find burned abandoned cars, broken beer bottles near the swimming hole. Someone had a campfire and spread straw around the area. When they came upon it, there was still some coals in the fire, but no one in sight. I guess the government needs to protect the treasures that are our public lands from stupid people. But we aren't them!! Of course the govt always provides a "one size fits all" solution to problems like this. What is the penalty for leaving trash in a national forest?

When the weather warms up a little, I have to go to the small creek near my house a pick up a bunch of trash someone threw off the bridge.

I just had to vent a little

 

[Dave45]

Im not joking
where the goggles