Does anyone actually ever locate a substantial find from a treasure tale?

[TechTH]

I'm of the opinion that outside of documented sunken ships and perhaps the occasional find arising from military records that little else (of any substantial worth) is actually found.

I've read my share of books and magazines with thousands of tales of lost gold mines, buried outlaw treasure, hidden accumulated wealth, mule trains laden with silver and gold, etc, etc. Just flipping through "Buried treasure you can find" by Robert Marx you get the impression that there is so much to find that we'd hear of discoveries on a regular basis and with the advents in technology they would be increasing.

I don't see that happening. So tell me -- are 99% of what you read just either tall tales or contain such vague geography that it's just as worthless?

TechTH

 

[ivan salis]

good finds require good research --not just buying a "book" loaded with some well known rehashed second hand stories * -- often these stories are too well known --so even if true most likely the stash behind them has long since been found (with the finder telling no one )--at the very least--- the govt will want a " hefty piece of your pie" should you get lucky and find something of good worth and are dumb enough to blab about it --or in some cases other folks will claim "your find" causing all kinds of legal problems -- selling "treasure stories" to others can be much more profietible than going "treasure hunting" is as P T Barnum knew all to well.

two true tales of treasure that i have "researched" are -- a 1715 era -- spanish treasure rescue and recovery vessel that was taking VIPS and TREASURE from the 1715 fleet area wrecksites in southern florida , back to spain * the vessel was a BARCOLONGA type vessel sent from HAVANA , CUBA TO THE WRECKSITES --once there they loaded VIPS AND TREASURES -- they were recorded as having gone down about 40 miles north of ST AUGUSTINE * reportedly with a good bit of silver upon her.
---note the scource of this information is * the then govenor of virginia -- alexander spotswood --the facts of the matter was summed up in a PS at the foot of a letter ( dated Oct 24th of 1715) to the british home sec . -- lord stanhope -- in which spotswood ask stanhope to check with the king to see if it was ok for spotswood to attempt a recovery of the vessel ( the vessel went down in nassau sound between talbot island and amelia island * which just happens to be "about 40 miles from ST AUGUSTINE" *

note there is a ENGLISH MADE nov of 1769 map by CAPT WILLIAM FULLER of amelia island that shows the wreck site upon it--note its the only wreck site noted on the map * ( the map was made in 1769 so the wreck MUST PREDATE 1769 --the wreck occured in 1715* --so there was a 54 year "gap" -- so by the time the map of its exact location was made in 1769 --all the folks IN 1715 who knew EXACTLY WHAT THE 1715 ERA WRECK IN NASSAU SOUND SITE WAS --A TREASURE WRECK --WERE NOW ALL DEAD -- the king in 1715 said do not mess with it right now -- we just ended a war and i do not wish it to restart right now -- so just record its location for now and we will get at it later on , once we get florida from the spanish.

several items have been found in the past in and around the nassau sound area --of the same type of items that carried upon the 1715 fleet * -- so the historical records and items found at the site match up nicely .

now the "bad news" and why I can speak so freely about this matter * to the world at large

SADLY THE STATE OF FLORIDA HAS DEEMED THIS WRECKSITE TO BE IN A "AQUATIC PRESERVE ZONE" AND THUS WILL NOT ISSUE ANY PERMITS FOR SALVAGE .

the second still viaible tale of true treasure with a documented history is //* the tale of LUIS AURY -- who in 1817 took over amelia island * -- Aury sold to a man named BOWDEN for $60,000 95 slaves -- the 95 slaves were taken along with spanish slaving vessel by Aury as a "prize" while coming from texas to amelia island using his "privateer" papers issued by mexico and venezuela * to justify him doing so -

bowden was later on caught transporting the slaves into the western part of florida by georiga troops who took the slaves -- since america in 1803 had passed a law banning any farther importation of slaves from africa * -- it was said these slaves were "illegally" imported -- the slaves were taken to georgia and there the govenor sold some and kept some * --- the spanish slave ship owner found out that his slaves had been sold by the georgia govenor with others "kept" --so he filed a court suit * saying that he never told anyone to bring the slaves to america * that they in fact were "hijacked" upon the high seas and
were "stolen property" and that upon finding his "goods" they should have been returned to him.

bowden during the court fight over the slaves "ownership" produced papers from AURY with a bill of sale for $60,000 * saying the were spoils of war sold to him-- the court held the sale to bowden as "invalid" and did not honor AURY claims of right of "privateer" to legally sale the slaves .--it thru these court records that one can see that the money did exist * the sale occured in Oct of 1817 --Aury was taken by US forces in dec of 1817 --less than 2 months later on amelia island --during that time Aury never left the island and no money was recorded as being found upon his vessels or his person at the time of his capture -- he was held for sometime but was released in jan of 1818 and told to never return on pain of death upon sight. --3 years later in the caribbean Aury was killed when a horse threw him --breaking his neck in the fall off him.

 

[lastleg]

TechTH:

I just related one on the New Mexico forum a few days ago.

Another big one was disclosed by a regular on the Lost Dutchman forum
over a year ago. He saw it with his own peepers.

Then there was a true classic treasure haul told in detail on TNet some three
years ago.

So yes, they do happen but you seldom see reports of dedicated searches
ending in bonazas. Mostly you hear of accidental finds and the majority of
them are from remodels or razing of old houses.

 

[auferret]

Most of the stories that you read are just that...stories. To answer the question of the title of the thread, Yes but it is unlikely that you will hear if it.

 

[twomtns2002]

There are more tales than treasures, true, but that doesn't mean that there are not more treasures than tales.

The Florida decision to make an aquatic preserve zone should be closely monitored to make sure that the potential for recovering treasure and improving the aquatic zone for underwater sealife is maintained.

There are alot of tales , true, and some of them have to do with ancient maps and scrolls.
We are studying the concept that Italy and the Baja peninsula were mistaken for one another at some point since we have some finds that are clearly Roman era like the roads. Is Macedonia actually relating to Ma(distance) Sedona(Arizona?)
Did the Goths and Visigoths fight with the Romans in the area 51, since we believe that both are names for other world creatures...Galations = galaxies?

 

[Libralabsoldier]

I have spent a good part of today researching the James Gang treasure tales, since I live in nearly walking distance from the Keechi hills, and other places the James crew frequented.

I know this ground has been gone over by many people, but I wonder how many have taken a methodical, scientific approach to it?

I will keep you all posted when I become filthy rich!

(or my wife makes me stop playing in the dirt and come into the house.)

 

[ivan salis]

oddly most the "aquatic preserve zones" and "historic preserve zones" put in place by the state of florida --occured after florida and the us govt --lost to mel fisher in the 1715 fleet cases --- the judge in the case ruled in mel fishers favor and said that in the future the state of florida had to set up a permitting process for treasure vessels found in state waters so that future treasure hunters could be "issued' permits to treasure hunt -- the only exceptions the judge allowed for was that the state did not have to issue permits for "aquatic preserve areas*" areas where there were endangered sea life and where disturbing the area might be harmful to them --and bonified "historical preserve areas" of archeological interest ---- so as soon as the case was over the state of florida --in a fit of spite --promptly declared several areas where there was early settlement areas in florida to be either --you got it "aquatic preserve zones" or "historic preserve zones" --thus slamming the "permitting" doors shut to treasure hunters FOREVER for getting permits in places that were highly likel;y to contain treasure wrecks.

the federal govt also shut the federal maritime court house doors to treasure salvors by enacting the 1985 "abandoned shipwreck act" --by which the fed govt --had over all control of vessels in states waters over to the states to control --not too long ago the feds actively went against its own citizens rights when it went to spain and urged spain to get "involved" in the juno shipwreck case .

simply put the state of florida and the fed govt --got a honest judge in mel fisher case and they were "sore losers" that fixed the game so they would NEVER lose again.

 

[Frankn]

If and when you find it, thats the time to put the muffler on!

​

 

[dld]

THE 1715 ERA WRECK IN NASSAU SOUND SITE WAS --A TREASURE WRECK -

SADLY THE STATE OF FLORIDA HAS DEEMED THIS WRECKSITE TO BE IN A "AQUATIC PRESERVE ZONE" AND THUS WILL NOT ISSUE ANY PERMITS FOR SALVAGE .

my understanding is a man named Mr Pope holds the offshore salvage rights in this area and has had them for a while

 

[RW]

I might know of someone who may have made a find, then researched it, and found out it was a treasure tale, maybe, I just might...

 

[White Feather]

If I found anything it would remain undiscovered. My government has given me reason to assume that position. Maybe it has and maybe it has not already been found. When our own government starts playing for the interests of foreigners it is time to vote with extreme prejudice. I would compare it to treason to take the side of outside interests against the very people who got you elected. They, the politicians, were put there by us to protect our interests and do what we asked them to do. Failing to do our wishes and using their office to even cut us out is akin to being a traitor in my book. If I was sent to Washington to represent people whom I had promised to fight for and see that their rights were protected I would be ashamed and consider myself cowardly to cut a deal with foreign governments or interests against those I represent. I would also expect to be unemployed after the next election. Don't forget, we put them in office and we can take them out! Until then I will never find anything of value that anyone but my very few close friends will ever see or hear of. I see nothing, I hear nothing, I tell nothing and I know nothing!

 

[Libralabsoldier]

SO you are ticked at the Republicans too, huh WF?

 

[ivan salis]

doug popes "salvage" rights only extend to the edge of the "aquatic preserve zone" the actual wreck site in in the preserve zone proper ( i do think they were checking for any wreckage trail that might have went into their salvage area )-- while they did get "exploration" lease for the nassau sound wreck site area -- no claims for salvage rights could be made due to it being a "aquatic preserve zone" -- pope group ---in error-- thought that the wreck site was one of the two missing - unaccounted for 1715 fleet vessels -- the french prize vessel "EL Ciervo" (the stag) --or the tobbaco hauling Nao San Miguel. (as was stated on the website ) they co miingled two bits of information #1 salmons statement that wreckage of a large vessel or vessel was found on the coast north* ( should be *north coast- translational error from spanish to english -- like casa rojo --house red -- in english--red house --so coast north in a word swap translation is actaully -- "north coast of st augustine" ) --spotswoods letter was clearly about a vessel that wrecked after the original fleet had already sank , since it was sent from havana to the wreck sites.-- two totally differant events --thus what they thought was in error -

upon careful study --the letter from alexander spotswood makes clear that the vessel was a rescue and recovery vessel (barcolonga) sent from havana , cuba to the 1715 fleet wreck sites to recover VIPS and valuibe items of importance -- while in route home to spain --it wrecked about 40 miles northward of st augustine * (exactly the nassau sound area)

 

[White Feather]

Nope! I'm an equal opportunity ticker offer. It does not matter what side of the isle they sit on. Betrayal is not acceptable in our representatives. Siding with anyone other than those you are supposed to represent is unacceptable. Party Lines? The only party line I consider is one to get into a real party. I'll vote either way as long as the person running is interested in the same goals as I am. If that makes me one sided I guess I'll live with it. If you run siding for the rights of MDer's then stand up for them and don't coward out or sell out. That's all I'm saying. If you are elected to represent the anti-treasure hunters then stand your ground and fight for those who elected you. I may not like what you do or what you stand for but I'll respect your right to do it if you were elected under that assumption and I'll fight to the death to defend your right to do it. I'm former military and I fought for our rights and do not like some idiot giving them away a little at a time. There are already to many useless and stupid laws and adding more is not the answer. Getting their name in some book as the supporter of stupid laws seems to be at the top of some of the law maker's agendas. As far as declaring a find goes, I would not report it. Taxation and State claims, foreign claims and splitting the find with a long line of lawyers will not happen to this old warrior. I'll dump it back into the sea and leave a map for my great-great-great grandchildren. A time capsule sort of thing. But, the present foolish claimants will never see a dollar of it. Anything I find would just be another treasure legend minus the few needed items I might "recover" from time to time. The present system has brought this upon themselves. I would encourage anyone finding anything of value to do something similar. If we don't find anything, they can not take it away. I just don't know where it was. I never saw it and that's my story. Prove otherwise!
As to believing someone has found treasure from an old tale? Yep! I think there are some who have found treasure and had the common sense to keep their mouths shut! More power to them!

 

[ivan salis]

picking between the two major party political groups in america today --is a lot like eating at a chinese resterant-- you can get crook from column A or theif from column B -- there's really not much differance between the two normally and of course you get the bill in the end.

 

[U.K. Brian]

Most of the stories are just tales and if not totally under researched.

Examples are the bankrobbers getting surrounded a few miles from town with X thousand in their saddlebags. Posse shoots them down but nothing recovered. Often the robbery was notes, not gold coin or bullion, so unlikely to be worth recovering after years or rain/snow etc.

A standard tale is the British forces being attacked by the French or Indians or both together. Dozens of bars of gold being carried. So picture the situation. Your being ambushed from all sides so you dig large holes, whilst underfire, bury the cannons and slip the gold in the barrels before infilling. No way !
The drawbacks are that if you research the events there was no gold. Britain was on its beam ends (just like today).

Switch to this side of the pond and you have the "Treasure Wreck" at the entrance to Ilfracombe Harbour in Devon. In the magazines you would have the headline that the beach had stripped again (when it hadn't). The treasure ship was Portuguese and had sunk at the harbour entrance. After a huge storm in the late 70's the sand was pushed back up the beach and "exceptionally valuable" coins found. Records were quoted from the time of the wreck, of the harbour being lined with gold
Thats the good news.

Now back to the real world. Only ten coins found. The most valuable (just one) was reported as being worth £1000. Turned out the value was obtained from a Dutch coin book and was in dollars. So cut the value in half and thats the best of the bunch.
Treasure ship ? No it was a slaver.
Harbour ringed with gold ? The ship had balasted in Africa with gold coloured stones.

If you go after a treasure tale you will be one of hundreds if not thousands who have read the same story. The plus side is they should have removed most of the rubbish from the site. On the other hand, perhaps also the treasure if it existed.

 

[Libralabsoldier]

I did not mean to stir up politics, I was just joking. As far as treasure ships, I am too far inland for that.

But when it comes to historical research, and known outlaws, the area I live in has that in spades. I am not talking legend and tales, either. I mean actual, verifiable, and concrete evidence.

Also, there is a pretty good record of what the James gang did and did not steal. There is a lot still left unfound. The problem for me is going to be getting property owners to let me hunt.

I am also not going about this as a way to find treasure, per se. I am approaching this as a relic hunt, and if I find gold, great!

 

[lastleg]

Libralabsoldier:

Oklahoma before statehood had plenty of bonafide outlaws and Judge Parker
hanged quite a few. I used to research his various deputies at libraries before
the internet came along. Living in OK you should be able to get access to
print information of the activities of deputies such as Heck Thomas, Masden
and Bill Tillghman and the rest.
Real treasure leads have to be dug out of old records and I am sure there
have been and are semi-pro hunters retracing old trails and forgotten hideouts
all over the state.
One big outlaw cache was found in the early '70s by a feller down Hugo way.
Written up in one of the Treasure mags. I was a young THer and after reading
that found that I knew the brother of the man in Hugo. I contacted him full of
desire to cross the Red River and hunt with him. It's funny now, he told me
if I could find the whereabouts of a certain OK ghost town he would take me
hunting with him. I never did get up to Hugo but I've often wondered if Mr.
Coker got to hang onto all those gold coins.

 

[Digger]

I highly doubt we'd be ever hear about the vast majority of "substantial" finds. At least here in America you'd be a fool for making it public.

 

[White Feather]

Food for thought;
If Jesse retired and bought a house why would he leave buried money behind? He had a wife. I would think he would figure a way for her to survive and get away if anything happened to him. What happened to the wife and home? Did she sell it and move away? That would be a good cover for hiding some extra cash and not having the local sheriff figure she had gotten the ill gotten gains and left town. I would sure make arrangements for my wife and family if I had a stash. Maybe he recovered the loot and buried it in his basement bank. I sure would put it where my wife could recover it and run without to much suspicion.
Like I said; Just a thought.