Dutchman Ore

[Somero]

As I stated above, a Good case can be made either way. I would like to believe the accounts but they have become muddled over time, to much hearsay and speculation. There is no solid documentation to support the account, all we have is based on human nature and gold, which in this case is not a good mix.

So I'm going to have to remain undecided

 

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[wrmickel1]

For those of you who think I am unfairly attacking Kraig, you don't know the whole story. I can see where it looks like I'm a lone nut out here. Keep in mind that I have always praised Kraig on his historical knowledge and understanding of the Apache lifestyle. It's when he gets into undocumented stories and alleged pioneer manuscripts that we part company.

Kraig knows what I, and many others know, so he won't speak to me or try to deny what I say. I write nothing that is not backed up by confirmed documentation.

You may take that to the bank.

Joe Ribaudo

Well except your conclusion to the Peralta Stones there seams to be no CONFIRMED DOCUMENTATION there Joe, I dont believe SMM endorsed it. And not everything you write is confirmed or nobody else's. A statement like that belong's in the rubber room.

When people write they and alittle flair or alittle Joe flair in your case.

Wrmickel1

PS, Hell an't that bad, I married into it!

 

[coazon de oro]

Kraig,

Perhaps you should ask Bob and Tom how those affidavits came about and what they think about LDM ore, and if what is said to be from Waltz's mine, in their minds, is true or false. They are both good friends of yours, so they will tell you how they feel.....I'm sure.

It would not be a bad idea for the others on this site to do the same thing. Both men are straight shooters.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

Hell O Joe,

Over the years, you have used the opinions of very knowledgeable Dutch hunters such as Tom K., and Bob C. to back up your arguments. Now that Matthew uses their sworn statements, to back up his presentation on the Dutchman ore, you tell us that they may have lied under oath?

Am I the only one missing something here? That would make your sources very unreliable, and lead us to question everything they say.

Homar

 

[Dirty Dutchman]

Hell O Joe,

Over the years, you have used the opinions of very knowledgeable Dutch hunters such as Tom K., and Bob C. to back up your arguments. Now that Matthew uses their sworn statements, to back up his presentation on the Dutchman ore, you tell us that they may have lied under oath?

Am I the only one missing something here? That would make your sources very unreliable, and lead us to question everything they say.

Homar

Oops.....

 

[cactusjumper]

Hell O Joe,

Over the years, you have used the opinions of very knowledgeable Dutch hunters such as Tom K., and Bob C. to back up your arguments. Now that Matthew uses their sworn statements, to back up his presentation on the Dutchman ore, you tell us that they may have lied under oath?

Am I the only one missing something here? That would make your sources very unreliable, and lead us to question everything they say.

Homar

Homar,

Let's get one thing straight here. I am not even hinting that either man lied. If I thought that, I would say it. There is one person here who is a known liar, and it isn't me, nor my two friends.

What they may have believed was true at one time, may not be the same now. We all learn new facts in our lives and that often takes us in a different direction.

You are welcome to come to any conclusion you like. After all, Travis likes your conclusion too. As I have said, ask both men what they think now. I have received email's from both of them in the last two days. It doesn't get any more current than that.

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Dirty Dutchman]

Homar,

Let's get one thing straight here. I am not even hinting that either man lied. If I thought that, I would say it. There is one person here who is a known liar, and it isn't me, nor my two friends.

What they may have believed was true at one time, may not be the same now. We all learn new facts in our lives and that often takes us in a different direction.

You are welcome to come to any conclusion you like. After all, Travis likes your conclusion too.

Joe Ribaudo

Lets get another thing clear. I didn't "like" his conclusion.... I "liked" that he called you out. You quote your sources and say things like "take that to the bank" when it's convenient for you. But when someone else quotes your sources, you say they may have changed their minds now....

Don't ASSume you know my conclusions. You seem to have a hard enough time keeping up with your own.

TRAVIS CROW

 

[Somero]

On April 10, 1985 the then Arizona Attorney General, Bob Corbin, wrote and signed a sworn affidavit notarized by Kathleen Copas a Notary Public.

In that April 10, 1985 affidavit Corbin wrote the following (in part) :

This is to certify that I am Bob Corbin, Attorney General of Arizona. I have been held that office since 1979. ..........................
I have seen the report on the said ore (Dutchman ore) which was assayed at Goldman's store by Dick Holmes. The report states that the ore assayed out at $110,000 a ton. Gold was selling for $20.64 an ounce in 1891.
................. With the items were shipping papers indicating some of the ore had been sent to a jewelry company in San Francisco in 1892. A request accompanied it directing the jeweler to make a matchbox, ring, tie pin, and cuff links from the ore. I have also seen the papers shipping this jewelry back to Phoenix. ......................

Three days later, on April 13, 1985 Tom Kollenborn wrote and signed a sworn affidavit which reads in part :

..... The ore (Dutchman ore) was taken to Goldman's store in Phoenix, Az. where it was assayed. I have seen the assay report on this ore and this assay report indicates that it was assayed at Goldman's store by Dick Holmes. The assay report further states that the ore assayed at $110,000 a ton and that gold at that time was selling for $20.64 an ounce. I have also seen shipping papers sending the ore to a jewelry company in San Francisco requesting that a matchbox, ring, tie pin and cuff links be made from the ore. .......................


However one must realize and understand the ore being assayed was concentrated ore, not rock as it was picked and broken out of a mine. This ore was broken down to it's maximum gold content minus as much quartz and matrix as the miner could remove for transport to a refinery. This assay was not a fair comparison of the ore as it was found in the mine.

Matthew K. Roberts

As the Undecided Juror, this may seem like a good piece of evidence. However the affidavits are for ore SAID TO BE Dutchman ore and that some was sent to San Francisco to be made into jewelery. I have to wonder if the signing of these affidavits was politically motivated in some way.

Now I'm not saying this is not the ore Dick Holmes got from the Dutchman, I'm sure he would have no reason to be dishonest about that. (other than not wanting Julia and Rhiney to know he had the ore, I wonder how he got past Julia with that box?)

What precautions were taken to prevent cross contamination with other ore while going to San Francisco or even at the Jewelry makers?

What would prevent a dishonest Jewelery maker from switching the ore?

If some of the better samples were sent, why is the matchbox ore not that concentrated as the assay report states?

To many doubts for me to find in favor of Mr. Holmes, then again some cases have been won with less convincing evidence.

 

[coazon de oro]

Homar,

Let's get one thing straight here. I am not even hinting that either man lied. If I thought that, I would say it. There is one person here who is a known liar, and it isn't me, nor my two friends.

What they may have believed was true at one time, may not be the same now. We all learn new facts in our lives and that often takes us in a different direction.

You are welcome to come to any conclusion you like. After all, Travis likes your conclusion too. As I have said, ask both men what they think now. I have received email's from both of them in the last two days. It doesn't get any more current than that.

Joe Ribaudo

Joe,

I was asking you a question, not stating a conclusion. Just wanted to be clear about what you were saying, since you like to beat around the bush a lot. There is always some hidden fact that would make things clear, but you can't seem to come up with it. This hidden facts sometimes have turned out to be just the opinions of others.

I am willing to bet that if Tom and Bob have had a change of heart, it is not because of any real proven fact. It may be partly due to the fact that they never found the mine, which in my opinion has enough conclusive evidence to exist.

I have always done my own thinking, and see no need to to bother these men for their opinions.

I also like the fact that Travis Crow did not like my "conclusion", that shows that he also does he's own thinking.

Homar

 

[Springfield]

As the Undecided Juror, this may seem like a good piece of evidence. However .....

.... some cases have been won with less convincing evidence.

Yes, a lot of innocent people have been hung based on thin evidence that the jury accepted. In most cases, we believe those things which require the least effort. That's why it's easy to ignore such things as Building 7 at the WTC, or Oswald's statement that he was a patsy. The book answers were easier to swallow.

In Waltz's case, if we accept the hearsay that he actually provided a deathbed statement, we'd then like to believe he told the truth. That's what happens in the movies, isn't it? Nice tidy answers. However, if Waltz was hiding something for years prior to his demise (source of the highgrade ore), he may just as easily have obscured the truth at the end. Maybe he didn't want his reputation sullied. Maybe he was protecting others. With the LDM legend, it's all 'maybes'.

 

[Matthew Roberts]

Somero, wrmickel, coazon, Travis, Springfield,

To clarify I have to say I never meant or inffered the two signers of the affidavits lied, or misled, intentionally or unintentionally. I know exactly the circumstances of the affidavits. A written and signed affidavit, sworn to and notorized is not a plaything. Nor a funny, lighthearted joke played on unsuspecting rubes. I have total faith in the honesty and intentions of the affadavits of these men. I know both men, I have done much for them and with them while neither has ever been a friend toward me. I respect their opinions and beliefs and stories even though many do not coincide with mine and would never be so much of a coward to call another man, any man, a liar, over any matter, in any setting other than in private and to his face.

The affadavits are simply evidence of dutchman ore which is what this thread is supposed to be about.

I have to leave for Palmdale this morning so only have a brief moment to comment. Many people think the only sources for information on Waltz and the Lost Dutchman Mine are the published books and articles. In 1922, Charles Clark and Dick Holmes founded the Arizona Pioneers Reunion held each year in Phoenix in early April. The event ran from Wednesday through Sunday and Riverside Park was the main gathering spot. Thousands of old pioneers came to Phoenix to greet old friends and neighbors. The newspapers from all over Arizona and family members took down stories, accounts and tales from these old pioneers about their early life and times in Arizona. Thousands of these pioneer accounts are in the Phoenix and Arizona newspapers from 1922 - 1950. The events would be so large and generate so much interest the papers would have a morning and evening edition as well as several suplements during the 5-6 days of the Pioneer reunions. Reading through these old newspapers brings to light stories, some concerning Waltz and his mine from people unknown to the book authors who never thought to research the Pioneer Reunion newspapers. The newspaper accounts from 1922 - 1930 are the best. Those years because they contain references to Waltz that predate the Adolph Ruth story, the story that most historians say was the beginning of the interest in the Lost Dutchman Mine.

Once again, everyone is free to believe or disbelieve anything they want. Their opinions are as valid as anyone elses and should be respected regardless. It is when you try to belittle, or personally attack someone (Dick Holmes was a liar) without any evidence or ever having known the person, that you lose all credibility and are arguing from sheer weakness. What I post is my opinion, not proven, iron clad fact.

Have to run.

Matthew Roberts

 

[cactusjumper]

Joe,

I was asking you a question, not stating a conclusion. Just wanted to be clear about what you were saying, since you like to beat around the bush a lot. There is always some hidden fact that would make things clear, but you can't seem to come up with it. This hidden facts sometimes have turned out to be just the opinions of others.

I am willing to bet that if Tom and Bob have had a change of heart, it is not because of any real proven fact. It may be partly due to the fact that they never found the mine, which in my opinion has enough conclusive evidence to exist.

I have always done my own thinking, and see no need to to bother these men for their opinions.

I also like the fact that Travis Crow did not like my "conclusion", that shows that he also does he's own thinking.

Homar

Homar,

I only have what you have written here to attempt to understand what you are trying to say:

"Now that Matthew uses their sworn statements, to back up his presentation on the Dutchman ore, you tell us that they may have lied under oath?"

To be very clear, I only tried to reply in a manner which would leave no doubt as to what I think. I have no intention of ever apologizing for using my friends as sources for.......anything. Considering the sources that some folks use around here, mine are at the top of the food chain.

I have been accused of making up lies about my ex-friend. If he, or any of his supporters would like to copy one of those lies here, I will be happy to back up whatever I have written with documentation. He will never do that, because he knows I have the proof of what I write. That proof is not something someone told me, it's all public records.

If anyone has a problem with one of these alleged lies, cite it to me in private and I will provide the source where you can confirm it for yourself.

Take care,

Joe

 

[pippinwhitepaws]

fleetwood mack - Bing Videos


not directed to you joe...just seemed to fit the topic.

 

[FEMF]

Homar,

I only have what you have written here to attempt to understand what you are trying to say:

"Now that Matthew uses their sworn statements, to back up his presentation on the Dutchman ore, you tell us that they may have lied under oath?"

To be very clear, I only tried to reply in a manner which would leave no doubt as to what I think. I have no intention of ever apologizing for using my friends as sources for.......anything. Considering the sources that some folks use around here, mine are at the top of the food chain.

I have been accused of making up lies about my ex-friend. If he, or any of his supporters would like to copy one of those lies here, I will be happy to back up whatever I have written with documentation. He will never do that, because he knows I have the proof of what I write. That proof is not something someone told me, it's all public records.

If anyone has a problem with one of these alleged lies, cite it to me in private and I will provide the source where you can confirm it for yourself.

Take care,

Joe

Hello Joe
We don't care about Mat's childhood stories, his source's are confirmable or not! Please let it go, You have made your point! Thank you. FEMF

 

[cactusjumper]

Hello Joe
We don't care about Mat's childhood stories, his source's are confirmable or not! Please let it go, You have made your point! Thank you. FEMF

FEMF,

Ok, I agree.......as long as Kraig stops his sneaky behind the scenes messages, like this:

Not Peralta,

Just wanted to say I enjoy your theory and presentation. I think you raise a lot of good questions and issues. I knew Bob Ward but only in passing. I hope you are aware that cactusjumper and Garry are best of friends and work together as internet trolls and tag team partners to discredit anyone who doesn't fall into their catagory of worthy of being on the forum. It's a game to them, they have set themselves up on a throne as the supreme beings of all things Dutchman and Stone Map and will not tolerate anyone who doesn't fall in line behind them. I have nothing to do with either one of them, they disparage, distort and spread lies about people to try and run off people that they feel are a threat to them. Just a word in case you werent aware. I hope you keep on with your presentations and postings, I may not agree with everything but am fascinated with the content and have been given something new to think about.

Azhiker
_______________________________________

I know, I know.....It's really just Azhiker, not Kraig.

On the other hand, I will take your advice, as well as my friend Paul's, and let it go. I reserve the right to post documents that directly refute any of Kraig's stories, no matter what name he is using....

I am, pretty much, done anyway.

Take care,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[FEMF]

Joe,
That's all anyone can ask! Thank you, Joe.
FEMF

 

[Dirty Dutchman]

FEMF,

Ok, I agree.......as long as Kraig stops his sneaky behind the scenes messages, like this:

Not Peralta,

Just wanted to say I enjoy your theory and presentation. I think you raise a lot of good questions and issues. I knew Bob Ward but only in passing. I hope you are aware that cactusjumper and Garry are best of friends and work together as internet trolls and tag team partners to discredit anyone who doesn't fall into their catagory of worthy of being on the forum. It's a game to them, they have set themselves up on a throne as the supreme beings of all things Dutchman and Stone Map and will not tolerate anyone who doesn't fall in line behind them. I have nothing to do with either one of them, they disparage, distort and spread lies about people to try and run off people that they feel are a threat to them. Just a word in case you werent aware. I hope you keep on with your presentations and postings, I may not agree with everything but am fascinated with the content and have been given something new to think about.

Azhiker
_______________________________________

I know, I know.....It's really just Azhiker, not Kraig.

On the other hand, I will take your advice, as well as my friend Paul's, and let it go. I reserve the right to post documents that directly refute any of Kraig's stories, no matter what name he is using....

I am, pretty much, done anyway.

Take care,

Joe Ribaudo

Looking forward to seeing the Documentation that supports the claim that Kraig is Azhiker. Because, as Joe says, he doesn't write anything that isn't supported by documentation.....

TRAVIS CROW

 

[pippinwhitepaws]

 

[Matthew Roberts]

Was going to follow up on my post of yesterday concerning the Arizona Pioneers Reunions in Phoenix and the Waltz references but this has become to much of an undertaking to keep the subjet on topic and focused. Between the stalking, attacks, fights, mis-representations and threats, it's just not worth it, life's too short and I have way to much to do.

My PM is still overflowing with folks who want to talk but are afraid (hesitant) to post on line for fear of being target themselves. So, I will continue to respond to those PM messages. Best to all,

Matthew

 

[pippinwhitepaws]

in here is rather like being the only blue eyed, 87 pound, white boy, in superior Arizona in the 1960's.

some things are just not worth the effort...

put me in a room with the correct information, allow me to examine the information, and I will walk you all straight to the mine thank you....keep the change.
I still believe that mine is worth more as a tourist attraction than any gold content it might contain.
certainly the mine is not worth the money, time, an lives spent upon it to this date.
confusion will be my epitate - Bing Videos

 

[Dirty Dutchman]

My apologies for my part in taking this off topic. It's just that after 2 years of listening to this crap, I got pissed.

Please do continue Matt and I will stick to the topic from this point forward. It's a great topic and I'm sure I'm not the only one that would like you to continue.

Thanks
Travis