Eagle button and lead piece

[TrpnBils]

Dug these at a 1799 homestead that has some CW history and not sure if either of these are related to that or not. I assumed the button was just off of a more modern coat, but when I rinsed it I saw the eagle design which got me curious to know if it's military or not. I doubt it, but I'd like to see if anybody can ID it.

The lead piece looks vaguely familiar like I've seen something on here before, but I don't have a clue.

 

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[fyrffytr1]

That is an interesting button. I looked through Albert's book but couldn't find a match. It may be a diplomat button jsut because it lacks the arrows in one talon.

 

[DCMatt]

The lead item looks like a musket ball that has been rammed hard leaving the impression of the ramrod on it. Looks fired to me as well.

DCMatt

 

[TrpnBils]

That is an interesting button. I looked through Albert's book but couldn't find a match. It may be a diplomat button jsut because it lacks the arrows in one talon.

An interesting idea. I wasn't aware of the symbolism of arrows vs no arrows. What do you make of the object shown in its beak? Can you point me in the direction of any more potential information? All the buttons from the CW I've seen posted seem to be either soldier or officer of some kind, so the idea that this might be neither but still military in a way is interesting... the black part around the center is what makes me think it's more modern because I haven't seen one like this posted before, but then again I have no idea what I'm talking about when it comes to buttons.

The lead item looks like a musket ball that has been rammed hard leaving the impression of the ramrod on it. Looks fired to me as well.

DCMatt

Matt - take a look at the picture on the bottom of my original post. It doesn't show up real well in the photo, but it gives me the impression of something that had originally looked like this from the side but has been crushed. There's definitely a fold of some sort there (unless you're right in assuming it was a fired ball that may have just been distorted). Is there a list somewhere of standard ball weights used during that time period? I'm assuming since they had standardized calibers that the weights would follow suit. I could at least compare it that way.

 

[DCMatt]

After another look, I don't think it is a musket ball.

Too much shadow around it to get a good look.

DCMatt

 

[HutSiteDigger]

Think Fyrf hit the nail on the head for a diplomatic button... I have seen this button before (i believe here on TN) or maybe at a show but pretty sure on TN... What does the back look like? any backmarks? being a two piece button it looks like probably mid to late 19th century diplomatic button? but it could be later also.... , somewhat similar to Great Seal button, there are a few diplomatic buttons that look similar to yours but i can't find exact match... This would be a good one for CannonBallGuy, if you want to shoot him over a PM or i will send him over a PM if it doesn't get answered, he normally chimes in on this.

 

[duggap]

Just wondered if he was trying to make a nipple protector.

.

sorry guys, just can't get the picture to post.

 

[TrpnBils]

Think Fyrf hit the nail on the head for a diplomatic button... I have seen this button before (i believe here on TN) or maybe at a show but pretty sure on TN... What does the back look like? any backmarks? being a two piece button it looks like probably mid to late 19th century diplomatic button? but it could be later also.... , somewhat similar to Great Seal button, there are a few diplomatic buttons that look similar to yours but i can't find exact match... This would be a good one for CannonBallGuy, if you want to shoot him over a PM or i will send him over a PM if it doesn't get answered, he normally chimes in on this.

Keith from Fort Bedford Detectors is a friend of mine, so I emailed him about it this afternoon because he's got way more knowledge than I do about this stuff. He asked me something about it I should probably clarify in case anybody else was under the same impression. The button is actually attached to the black piece, like a 2 piece button, so it's not a display thing...what you're all seeing is how I found it. There's no maker mark on the back at all, it's totally smooth (except for the shank) and black. I thought when I first dug it that the black was plastic, which is why I assumed it was more modern until the design made me question that. I'm still not totally convinced that it's not... obviously the front is metal, but I still don't know about the black. I can't see how any metal that old would still be that good looking after being in the ground.

If you can find that reference to the same button on TN or elsewhere, please let me know because I'd love to get a definite answer! I'll PM CannonBallGuy and see steer him this way. Thanks!

 

[fyrffytr1]

Please post a picture of the back. Even though there is nothing on it, it can still aid in getting a correct ID. The object in the eagles beak is a form of banner. Most have E. Pluribus Unum on them. But again, the banner on your button is different. The eagle just looks old to me but the raised shield looks late 1800s. It is a puzzler for sure. As soon as I post this TCG will post with the correct ID and teach me another lesson!

 

[TheCannonballGuy]

TrpnBils asked for my input.

The various characteristics of this button-like object strongly indicate it is not US Military issued or US Government issued. On the actual Great Seal Of The United States, above the eagle's head, there is a "glory" or "union" showing a cluster of 13 stars encircled by small round-ish clouds. That is absent on this button-like object.

Also, the Great Seal's eagle holds a bundle of 13 arrows in its foot, instead of what is seen at that location on this button-like object.

Also, instead of a highly realistic depiction, the eagle's form is quite crudely depicted, which is a characteristic of cheaply-manufactured civilian-usage imitations of the Great Seal, such as is frequently seen on civilian "Fashion" buttons.

Here in the What Is It? forum back in 2013, TreasureNet member rockermike17368 posted that he is working on a book about the Great Seal buttons used by the US Army. He most recent post was in June 2014... but he said his email address is:
emt44210
at
aol.com
I suggest you send him an email asking him to take a look at the photos you posted in this discussion-thread. He said he has over 700 specimens in his Great Seal button collection, so perhaps he'll be familiar with what you found.

 

[TrpnBils]

TrpnBils asked for my input.

The various characteristics of this button-like object strongly indicate it is not US Military issued or US Government issued. On the actual Great Seal Of The United States, above the eagle's head, there is a "glory" or "union" showing a cluster of 13 stars encircled by small round-ish clouds. That is absent on this button-like object.

Also, the Great Seal's eagle holds a bundle of 13 arrows in its foot, instead of what is seen at that location on this button-like object.

Also, instead of a highly realistic depiction, the eagle's form is quite crudely depicted, which is a characteristic of cheaply-manufactured civilian-usage imitations of the Great Seal, such as is frequently seen on civilian "Fashion" buttons.

Here in the What Is It? forum back in 2013, TreasureNet member rockermike17368 posted that he is working on a book about the Great Seal buttons used by the US Army. He most recent post was in June 2014... but he said his email address is:
emt44210
at
aol.com
I suggest you send him an email asking him to take a look at the photos you posted in this discussion-thread. He said he has over 700 specimens in his Great Seal button collection, so perhaps he'll be familiar with what you found.

Thanks for the input - not sure how I missed this post until today. I appreciate it!

 

[TrpnBils]

Just saw something on a video that reminded me of this lead piece I posted here... is it possible it's a lead bale seal?