Error? Half Dime

[ResurrectedVirginia]

I dug this 1841 half dime. Cleaned it up and looked at it with a loupe. To me it looks like there is a strange design stamped into the reverse. I can not figure out what it would have come from. Either a double die, mis-strike, or some other coins die ( wrong planchet ). Where I see it, the right upper corner of the " M " has some design connecting it between the bottom corners of the " L " and " F ". The other part of the design begins at the top of the " E " and then diagonally borders the right side of the " F ". It is clearly raised like a double die would be. Hopefully some one can figure it out. I can try to get better pics if needed.

 

Amazon Forum Fav 👍

Agony and Death on a Gold Rush Steamer: The Disastrous Sinking of the Side-Wheeler Yankee Blade - Grab it through Amazon!

[huntsman53]

While it is very hard to determine from the pics, I believe that you have an 1841 Seated Liberty Half Dime that has a severely Die Clashed Reverse (back)! If so, then you are seeing the details of Miss Liberty and possibly other details from the Obverse (front) showing under the and mixed in with the details of the Reverse. If you can take some close-up and in-focus pics of the full Reverse of the coin, we might be able to tell for sure. The other possibility is an Overstrike but I believe that it is from Die Clashing. A Die Clash occurs when a struck coin is ejected from the Striking (Minting) Chamber and another Planchet is not fed into the chamber, resulting in the Dies slamming into each other and transferring the details/images from one Die to the other. The Mint Workers strive to ground out and polish out all traces of Die Clashes on the Dies so the effects does not show up on any struck coins. However, in most cases when Die clashing occurs, quite a few coins with Die Clashing will make it through Quality Control before the problem is found and even then not all of the evidence is always ground out or polished out, so some evidence will show on some coins. For more information on Die Clashing, go to the link below or do a Google search for "Die Clash, Die Clashing or Die Clashes" and links will come up for you to check out.

Die Clashes


Frank

P.S. Die Clashed coins, especially Seated Liberty Coins are highly sought after and collectible Errors, some of which can fetch many multiples of the value of the coin itself. If a coin has not only images clashed on it but also has Lettering from the opposite Die, then it can fetch much, much more and especially so if the coin is in very high grade condition.

 

[BARKER]

Hi RV; Another thing that will help is take sharper pics of BOTH the Obverse and Reverse lined up properly exactly as they should be ok. The pics you show here are at off angles and or partially covered by your fingers ok. I believe huntsman53 is on the right track. Another feature I noticed is that there is actual lettering that appears to be inverted on the M in Dime going from the top center of the right side of the M proceeding to the bottom center of the left side of the M. Also the Top right side of the F appears to be much fatter, for lack of a better term, than normal and that it is also touching the Wreathing there as well. The bottom of the E in DIME is also much fatter than normal as well. I hope this helps. I suggest getting it PCGS slabbed. Then you will know what it really is and it's actual Grade which can be low balled at times due to it's Error Factor ok. I hope this helps. Look forward to seeing the final outcome and values. PEACE:RONB

 

[ResurrectedVirginia]

First off let me mention that I forgot to say that there is also some raised design right above the right loop in the bow on the bottom although you have probably already seen it. Second : thanks a lot for the info. I was unaware of die clashing. I will try to get better pics but at the least, definitely more of them. I understand what you are getting at. I will aline the pics according to the coins orientation. Hopefully I will have them up soon. I don't know how good I can get them. The sucker is so tiny and I only have a 30x loupe. I will also look into the size of the letters.

 

[huntsman53]

First off let me mention that I forgot to say that there is also some raised design right above the right loop in the bow on the bottom although you have probably already seen it. Second : thanks a lot for the info. I was unaware of die clashing. I will try to get better pics but at the least, definitely more of them. I understand what you are getting at. I will aline the pics according to the coins orientation. Hopefully I will have them up soon. I don't know how good I can get them. The sucker is so tiny and I only have a 30x loupe. I will also look into the size of the letters.

While the 1st pics of the coin are really hard to analyze, I believe that the coin was struck with Dies that suffered not only Die Clashing but also, Counter Die Clashing. This happens after the scenario I described above (A Die Clash occurs when a struck coin is ejected from the Striking (Minting) Chamber and another Planchet is not fed into the chamber, resulting in the Dies slamming into each other and transferring the details/images from one Die to the other.) and another Planchet does not get fed into the Striking/Minting Chamber. The results are that the previously Die Clashed images, details and/or lettering gets transferred back onto the Die from where it originally came with two sets of overlapping images, details and/or lettering intermingled with the true image/ details and/or lettering from a Die. I can't be sure but it sort of appears that one or both of the Clashes are offset as one of the Dies may have been rotated (MAD or Mis-aligned Die(s)) when the Clashing occurred and resulted in rotated (offset) Clashing or MAD Die Clashing.

http://www.maddieclashes.com/Type_I_and_II_counter_clash.html


Frank

 

[ResurrectedVirginia]

I got a bunch more pics. Hopefully they can help you. I found a couple more marks and designs as well. The pics are the best I could get. Some of the designs are only noticeable at just the right angle.

On the 5 photo you should be able to see something in between the right side of lady liberty and her staff. Its a straight line connecting her shoulder to the staff. Also there is a square patch resting on her shoulder. It sits right above where the toga ends and her bare arm begins.

Photo 11 : I found a new design here. There is a line that starts from the bottom of " T " and continues until it fades out just before " F ". Its so hard to see but just above that line : above as in if the coin is in the correct viewing position ( " HALF DIME " in reading position ) ] It looks like 2 half pipes laying side by side.

Photo 9 you can see a line to the left of " H " in the wreath. Its short and it goes through one of the olives. see photo 16

photo 12 if you look at the bottom middle of " E " and " S " you can see one of the half pipe designs.

 

[huntsman53]

Although there are a few scratches, nicks and dings here and there on the coin, I must say that it is a very nice coin and would probably grade at VF-30. While a few collectors might not agree, the nice condition of the coin along with some Die Clashing on the Obverse and moderate Die Clashing as well as Counter Die Clashing on the Reverse, makes it very desirable to many collectors. Also, while many Liberty Seated Half Dimes and Liberty Seated Dimes exhibit some Die Clashing and others exhibit Die Clashing and Counter Die Clashing, most do not exhibit these to the degree that your' coin shows. Now, if you pinpoint some Clashed or Counter Clashed lettering anywhere on the coin (Obverse or Reverse or both), then this is much more desireable and puts the coin in the class or designation as a Variety. In most cases, Die Clashed or Counter Die Clashed details and images alone will not classify the coin as a Variety but if it has Die Clashed or Counter Die Clashed letters, then it is definitely considered a Variety.

Please understand that, the condition of the coin along with Die Clashing and Counter Die Clashing of just details and images does not warrant to have it certified and graded as the cost of the certification and grading would be cost prohibitive to any profit for resell. However, if there are Die Clashed and/or Counter Die Clashed letters on the coin (i.e. a Variety), it is possible that it would be worth the cost to have it certified and graded. If it has this, then you should do some further research to see if this Variety is recorded and what the possible value would be graded or ungraded.


Frank

 

[ResurrectedVirginia]

Huntsman53 Thanks a lot. I was definitely pleased when it can out of the ground. Thanks for all the info to. I will do a lot more research on it. As far as "variety" do you mean like it being a known and recognized error with at least a few existing specimens? or no?

 

[huntsman53]

Huntsman53 Thanks a lot. I was definitely pleased when it can out of the ground. Thanks for all the info to. I will do a lot more research on it. As far as "variety" do you mean like it being a known and recognized error with at least a few existing specimens? or no?

While some folks feel that an issue such as a Die Clash, Counter Die Clash or both should fall into the realm of Varieties, most often they do not unless the specimen coins also exhibit Die Clashing, Counter Die Clashing or both of letters. Without the latter, these are only seen as Errors but with the latter, they are most often considered Varieties. In reality, both are Errors because in most cases to be considered as a Variety, the mistakes or problems on the Dies must be the result of a planned change or repair of the Dies by Mint workers.

It is possible that your' coin is of a known Variety (if that is what it is) that has been recorded and the population reports/records may be available. Also, if your' coin is only an Error (i.e. without Die Clashed letters or without Counter Die Clashed letters), then it is highly likely that this Error is well known as these are common issues on the Liberty Seated Half Dimes and Dimes. However, for these, there are no population records.


Frank

 

[cosmic]

Here one of mine that severely clashed..

 

[ResurrectedVirginia]

Cosmic , Your reverse is very similar to mine. Do you know how your reverse clashing was aligned? For instance where did the wavy / half pipe design underneath " STATES " come from? And is that a letter " E " just under liberty's forearm?

 

[cosmic]

Yes that is the E.. The wavy line is the bottom ground under Lady Liberty..

 

[ResurrectedVirginia]

awesome and thanks

 

[CoinHELP!]

It's a die clash and here's full coin overlays to help US Coin Overlay Images For Die Clash Error Collectors