What's new

FBI charges 24 in American Indian artifact looting : update1

lostcauses

Bronze Member
Joined
Feb 4, 2008
Messages
1,487
Reaction score
34
Golden Thread
0
http://www.sltrib.com/ci_12561194
"For two years, someone close to a large network of archaeological looters in southeastern Utah was wired with an audio-visual recorder when buying ancient baby blankets, stone pipes, seed jars, digging sticks, pots, even a pre-Columbian menstrual pad.

This "Source," as he or she is identified in a search warrant affidavit unsealed Wednesday, is an insider who worked with U.S. Bureau of Land Management and FBI special agents to nab two dozen suspects in the theft and sale of more than 250 American Indian artifacts from the Four Corners area."
 
Upvote 0
Re: FBI charges 24 in American Indian artifact looting

Looting is a very harsh word. I think these people probably got what they deserve. They were in it strictly for the money and to me, that's not right. We "the members of this forum" are not looters, but when something like this happens it hurts everyone. In the eyes of the law and the public, we also are looters. It's up to us to educate the people we come in contact with or our hobby is doomed. :'(
 
Re: FBI charges 24 in American Indian artifact looting

I'm up here in Colorado and about 4 of the suspects were from down at Durango. I don't think the FBI should have let their investigation go on that long and they should have shut them down quicker, instead of encouraging them to continue pillaging sites. The accused have knowledge of sites that are not recorded yet, so maybe we can get that out of them. I'm glad they caught them and stopped them, but they could have done it before they spent over $300,000 of the taxpayers money on it and still had a prosecutable case. I don't think they recovered any baby blankets or pre-Columbian menstrual pads though. Lots of other stuff though.
 
Re: FBI charges 24 in American Indian artifact looting

TnMountains said:
I am sure the government did evrything in their power to expand, encourage and pro long this investigation till it reached sensational proportions. It also supplied endless money for artifacts which enticed many poor locals into making very bad decisions The blog in the local paper shows how hated and despised the local mormons with their ATVS were. Informative. Thanks.

Goes To show it's Not about the History Lost
To Archies That The Laws are about.

They are About Keeping their Jobs.
 
Re: FBI charges 24 in American Indian artifact looting

Bull59 said:
I think they let them go long as they did to get as many free artifacts as they could. Makes an archeologists job a whole lot easier if they just set back and let some others bring the bling to them. Pretty slick system, probably saved his university a pile of cash for finding and digging these things up for themselves.

I somewhat agree....the archie I deal with from our BS Camp however, would see it different...."They destroyed history!"

Yep, that is what he would tell me. That is what us Metal Detectorist do....we destroy history! Sure they got some FREE ARTIFACTS, but as per this archie, there is a PROPER WAY TO DIG!! (This Archie and I DO NOT see eye to eye!! OH Well, his loss!) :)

Either way, these guys were wrong. I'm not familiar with this area they were in nor should this have gone on for 2 years! A couple months maybe, but 2 years?
 
Re: FBI charges 24 in American Indian artifact looting

it's all about the Money.

More Counts mean Bigger Fines

Just like Drug Dealer Investigations.
The Investigaters Help Smuggle,
Deliver, & Get it to Millions of Users of all ages
with no Care about Who uses it.

When things slow down They make
Token arrests.

They were Probably Making security
at the Sites Lax & Helping them Steal
the Artifats in the name of the law
 
Re: FBI charges 24 in American Indian artifact looting

What security?? It is likely the feds, state, and arcs never new the particular site existed. So much land and not enough folks for any security. They will use a site watch if they know something is going on to hope they can curb some of the stuff, yet never enough.

Seems on of the guys killed himself.
http://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_12572033
Really sad.

The rule from this is:
keep it above the law folks.
What is that old saying??
"dont do the crime unless you are willing to do the time" And as said the economic impact of such onto one self.

Don't touch it if you do not own it or have permission. preferably in writing.

jeff of pa said:
it's all about the Money.

More Counts mean Bigger Fines

Just like Drug Dealer Investigations.
The Investigaters Help Smuggle,
Deliver, & Get it to Millions of Users of all ages
with no Care about Who uses it.

When things slow down They make
Token arrests.

They were Probably Making security
at the Sites Lax & Helping them Steal
the Artifats in the name of the law
 
Re: FBI charges 24 in American Indian artifact looting

In this field I have met some of the greatest folks, In the reports on this thing; folks are saying some great people got caught in it. I do not doubt about such.

I think the real problem with all of this is the addictive part that goes into finding a great find. Folks just don't seem to stop even when they know it is wrong. They will cross that line to get there fix. Great folks with an addiction for the hunt is the way I view this. Of course the money seems to also play a role in the digging game, if they are sellers; yet the few folks I knew doing such were just plain addicted to it like I am my nicotine.
One could wounder if a better way would be to address the addiction? I mean going out on public land and digging, who does such with out knowing it is wrong, yet continue to do so. They just can not stop it seems.

One can not secure the public lands. though I am sure there are folks that would love to go that route:
so what could be done that is practical??

Crazy stuff man.
 
Re: FBI charges 24 in American Indian artifact looting

Yeah, it's probably all about the money. There's no excuse for grave robbing. And if the government wants the artifacts without the field work, it is much better to get them in the context where they lie. I am familiar with law enforcement stings, and there are some things that won't fly in court. I'll do some more checking, but I wonder if in this case the folks had a road side stand set up offering native american grave goods for sale, or if an agent came into the area and said he would pay a $1,000 for an arrowhead, which might motivate me to get out there and scrounge up something. I also wonder about this. I lost a very good knife once. If someone finds it in 500 years and sells it, will they go to jail for that?
 
Re: FBI charges 24 in American Indian artifact looting

"I lost a very good knife once. If someone finds it in 500 years and sells it, will they go to jail for that?"
No it will be in fifty years.
 
Re: FBI charges 24 in American Indian artifact looting

Probably doesn't matter, RGINN.

Changes in the laws have all but done away with the concept of entrapment.

It's worse than that, even. There are cases where creeps on their way to internet appointments for what they thought was going to be sex with teenage kids (who were really cops lying to them) had attacks of conscience and couldn't go through with it. Stopped before they got there, turned around to go back home, and were busted by the cops who were following them without ever having done anything. The prosecution says they took one affirmative step toward it, which is all it takes to get a conviction. They'll die in prison.
 
Re: FBI charges 24 in American Indian artifact looting

lostcauses said:

Thanks lostcauses for keeping us up to date on this. I am very interested. Watch a good lawyer(if there is any such thing) destroy this case and dis -credit their source and it all be thrown out of court. Be two people dead either way. There is just no way a lot of these people will be able to survive the Federal Governments grinding wheel. They feel helpless and hopeless when charged.
They would have done more good if they would have spent two years in a Meth lab sting.
 
Re: FBI charges 24 in American Indian artifact looting

I believe the moral of this happening is,
if it is on federal lands do not touch it.
If it is not from federal lands,
do not say it was to get a sale.
 
Re: FBI charges 24 in American Indian artifact looting

TnMountains said:
I agree there are many items out there of great quality that came from what is now Federal land around here. But before it was under federal jurisdiction.
Am confused again on who is it that owns Federal land??
Agree some sites need protection. This is just sad the way its playing out. Many will think they got what they deserved.

"Am confused again on who is it that owns Federal land??"

No single individual, approx 306,711,123 individuals own it.

Sad and predictable the deaths are. This field has a great many addicted to the hunting and owning of artifacts, its like a gambling addiction. The find is the fix. It out weighs the money involved in most cases, and effects judgment. Folks caught in such are a high risk of repeating such. Folks knowingly doing the unlawful stuff just can not quit. Depression and suicide is a good possibility in such cases. Yet Law enforcement and judicial will not deal with such. So we have dead people when there should not be.
Sorry some thing about all of this is not sitting to well.
 
Re: FBI charges 24 in American Indian artifact looting

Copied from another forum :

(http://forums.about.com/n/pfx/forum.aspx?tsn=1&nav=messages&webtag=ab-archaeology&tid=8501)

rickd said:
I'm certainly not condoning the trafficking of artifacts from burials or protected land but i do think that many times the prosecutors are looking in the wrong direction for such looting. The collectors should have known better in this recent case. A review of the NAGPRA should remind those so critical of amateurs and collectors that the law was originally intended to protect such sites from federally funded institutions and programs that were looting the "professionally excavated "sites, not the collectors picking up surface finds. It was and still is in many cases the " fox in the hen house" where these excavations are concerned. My wife's family owned the Mann Mound property in Posey County Indiana and lost many artifacts at the hands of those whose interest was supposed to be the" protection" of our Native American heritage. Same situation happened at the Angel Mounds site in Indiana when Glenn Black was excavating years ago. Two large buildings full of "professionally excavated" cultural items gradually disappeared while supposedly under the watchful eye of those charged with the protective curation of the artifacts. Unfortunately, "understanding our nations past " is not always the motivation of every scholarly dig, as many of the items end up in the pro's private collections. In the Mann site case the catalogue of items taken, given to the family was far less than the university's display that they now show. The Mann family will never know the true number of artifacts looted by those they trusted to "gain a more clear understanding of the culture " that lived on their property so long ago. One would be foolish to think that personal greed never plays in among "professionals" and a search of some of their homes just may surprise those that are so trusting. Check out NAGPRA for a refresher of who was doing the looting and why the law was needed. There was specific intent to exclude surface hunters.
 
Re: FBI charges 24 in American Indian artifact looting

Yes the theft from the folks that are supposedly taking care of them archeology material is going on, and may get worse. An easy thing to turn over for money.

Yet the relic hunter is usually not about the money (Some are but rare). They are about the perfecting the hunt, getting away to a different environment, and the artifact something like a kill, or trophy. Maybe a win of the card game fits.
I do not condone what these folks did, They broke the law: but I can understand they just took it to far.
Hobby gone mad.
One thing in the relic comunity that we seem to not talk about: is that it does become a problem for some folks.
Some were the "I am doing wrong" checks out. They get to the point of doing damage to themselves, others or community (Public property)

It is one of them things to: hobby, to obsession, to the hobby controlling you (or it has now become a problem for the individual) Strange enough folks that get caught will do it again. Crazy.

I suspect until the relic hunters them selves acknowledge there is a potential, and are people that have problems with relic hunting, such will just continue to tarnish, and make it easier for laws against relic hunting to happen.
Law enforcement, archeologist, and the general public see relic hunting as just about the money.

I like this part of what is quoted, "There was specific intent to exclude surface hunters."
Not to worry, other laws cover it. An attempt to justify something they are doing maybe.

uniface said:
Copied from another forum :

(http://forums.about.com/n/pfx/forum.aspx?tsn=1&nav=messages&webtag=ab-archaeology&tid=8501)

rickd said:
I'm certainly not condoning the trafficking of artifacts from burials or protected land but i do think that many times the prosecutors are looking in the wrong direction for such looting. The collectors should have known better in this recent case. A review of the NAGPRA should remind those so critical of amateurs and collectors that the law was originally intended to protect such sites from federally funded institutions and programs that were looting the "professionally excavated "sites, not the collectors picking up surface finds. It was and still is in many cases the " fox in the hen house" where these excavations are concerned. My wife's family owned the Mann Mound property in Posey County Indiana and lost many artifacts at the hands of those whose interest was supposed to be the" protection" of our Native American heritage. Same situation happened at the Angel Mounds site in Indiana when Glenn Black was excavating years ago. Two large buildings full of "professionally excavated" cultural items gradually disappeared while supposedly under the watchful eye of those charged with the protective curation of the artifacts. Unfortunately, "understanding our nations past " is not always the motivation of every scholarly dig, as many of the items end up in the pro's private collections. In the Mann site case the catalogue of items taken, given to the family was far less than the university's display that they now show. The Mann family will never know the true number of artifacts looted by those they trusted to "gain a more clear understanding of the culture " that lived on their property so long ago. One would be foolish to think that personal greed never plays in among "professionals" and a search of some of their homes just may surprise those that are so trusting. Check out NAGPRA for a refresher of who was doing the looting and why the law was needed. There was specific intent to exclude surface hunters.
 
Re: FBI charges 24 in American Indian artifact looting

Redd, daughter admit to artifact thefts

http://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_12762067

" Blanding resident Jeanne Redd and her daughter pleaded guilty to multiple felonies Monday morning for illegally trafficking in ancient artifacts.

Jeanne Redd, 59, admitted in Salt Lake City's federal court to seven felonies: two counts of violating the Archaeological Resources Protection Act, two counts of theft of government property, three counts of theft of American Indian tribal property.

Redd was indicted June 10 as part of a federal raid on illegal artifact trafficking in the Four Corners region.

Her 37-year-old daughter, Jerrica Redd, pleaded guilty to three felonies involving theft, excavation and possession of property from tribal lands. As part of the plea deal, she acknowledged knowingly taking artifacts from Navajo land.

Jerrica Redd, was not indicted in the original raid, was charged Friday. Federal authorities say evidence against her surfaced during searches of the Redds' Blanding home.

The two will be sentenced Sept. 16.

Jeanne Redd's husband, physician James Redd, also was indicted June 10 -- on one felony count of theft of tribal property. He committed suicide the next day. "
 
Re: FBI charges 24 in American Indian artifact looting

I will say what they did was wrong. I still think the government could have shut them down quicker. Like when they first heard about it, instead of dragging it out. I have worked in undercover operations of a different nature, and the only reason we drug it out was if we found a chance to go one step up the ladder in the operation. This ladder didn't have that many rungs. I was also under the impression that federal land belonged to me. I paid my taxes on time and don't have any felony convictions. I don't want to take anything from it, but I figure if I want to walk around on it and examine the scenery, I should have the right by birth. Besides that, most of us could keep a better eye on the land and maintain it better than the government, because we're closer to it.
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Latest Discussions

Back
Top Bottom