Gun Control and Mental Health

[Crispin]

First of all: I want to apologize to Packerbacker if I sounded too harsh. I meant no disrespect.

Inspiration for thread:
"I don't think the "obviously" mentally disturbed person is the one we have to worry about. You know, the guys walking down the street ranting and raving to nobody. They aren't involved in mass killings. It's the "quiet" ones. Thing is, say they think they have identified someone with the "percieved" potential of going off. What legal means do they think they have to put this person away or remove their guns? Are you kidding me? If I have guns in my home and they identify someone living with me, or even visiting me, as a potential nutjob, do you think they can control my weapons? As is being discussed now as a means of preventing crimes or suicide, if, for some reason, I had a doctor or "health care provider, ask me if there were guns in my home, I'd tell them it's none of their damn business. Then what? A search warrant? Anyone taking ANYTHING away from me will pay a price. THAT'S the bottom line. The honest citizen can only be pushed so far and then a line is drawn. I am not a member of the huggy/squeezy Mr Roger's neighborhood, I'm a veteran, a hunter, a target shooter, I don't trust law enforcement to protect me as is obvious in the mass killings and I'll not have my rights trampled on because society would rather try to understand nutjobs and criminals instead of putting them away. They have limited the magazine capacity to 10 in California now to be "legal". There are more 30-round mags in this state than you can count. If they were to change it to 7 like the dumba$$es in New York did, I would go to 30-round magazines and forget the 10 round limit. If I'm breaking the law I might as well do it right. I DON'T CARE WHY SOMEONE IS NUTS!!!!"

My response: I live in Florida. Laws vary from state to state. First thing, doctors are forebidden by state law to ask about firearms in your possession UNLESS, you have provided them with reason to believe that you are going to kill yourself or others.
Fact: I have held people who have made these threats held against their will, had their homes searched, and weapons seized. This is not rocket science people. If you have plans on killing yourself or others and tell a doctor then we HAVE to stop it.
I know nothing about clips/magazines and rounds per clip per bullet per whatever. Most psychiatrists have a similiar knowledge base to me. DO NOT BELIEVE THE MEDIA. I can assure you, first hand knowledge, and talking to my colleagues, the last thing psychiatrists want is to be placed in the middle of this. This is what we believe:
1. Serial Murders are as common as winning the lottery.
2. It cannot be predicted, it cannot be prevented.
3. We cannot identify them.
4. Even if we could identify them we would not want the power to lock them up. We do not desire power. We got into this field to help people. To believe otherwise is to fall victim to the mainstream media.
5. We want nothing to do with this discussion...seriously.

Okay, kid gloves are off in this thread. Say whatever you want to whoever you want about this issue. I opened it up...have at it.

Sincerely,
Crispin

PS. Packerbacker, I didn't mean to belittle your opinion. I just didn't want this discussion to occur in the other thread.

 

[Treasure_Hunter]

Pleasr keep posts with in our rules...

 

[releventchair]

Were you(no insult to any one person) not concerned about the mental health of others it might be treating them as any other family or strangers,criminals
and deny them access to your property that can cause harm when your not there. A relative asked who could access with out me, specifically another family member. My answer was no one, but that individual has their own. The point is,my attempt is to insure my stuff can not be obtained with out my consent.
Were i to be in a state where i should be denied access there are if warned people close who could if warned secure(jamming locks). One has for someone else with out their consent,after an episode where a weapon was requested by some one about to go bye bye for a little while. Announcing threats of harm to self or others to mental health people,well that would certainly raise concern.

Surprised Crispin still willing to discuss though it is a serious topic.

 

[Crispin]

RelevantChair: I am always willing to discuss as long as i am not being attacked.

I ask everybody who read this thread to consider this thought deeply: Pt. X walks into my office and states that he has an arsenal of guns at his house and plans to kill people A, B, and C. End of interview.

Is there anybody on this forum who thinks that I do not have a legal obligation to prevent this?
Is there anybody who does not want to give me the power to hold this person against their will and seize these guns?
If I so order it...in this circumstance, there is no number of people that could stop me from going in that house and getting those guns.

Again, I value the second amendement above all others.
Common sense, if you plan on killing yourself or others then DO NOT tell a doctor. If you tell a doctor then you are asking him/her to intercede on your behalf.

 

[Rebel - KGC]

RelevantChair: I am always willing to discuss as long as i am not being attacked.

I ask everybody who read this thread to consider this thought deeply: Pt. X walks into my office and states that he has an arsenal of guns at his house and plans to kill people A, B, and C. End of interview.

Is there anybody on this forum who thinks that I do not have a legal obligation to prevent this?
Is there anybody who does not want to give me the power to hold this person against their will and seize these guns?
If I so order it...in this circumstance, there is no number of people that could stop me from going in that house and getting those guns.

Again, I value the second amendement above all others.
Common sense, if you plan on killing yourself or others then DO NOT tell a doctor. If you tell a doctor then you are asking him/her to intercede on your behalf.

Or a COUNSELOR, like me... "situation of imminent danger to oneself, or others...".

 

[pat-tekker-cat]

Does that fall under the "Baker act"?

 

[Crispin]

PTC: You just had to bring those words into it, didn't you? Yeah...those two words have caused me more sleepless nights then you can imagine.

 

[Rebel - KGC]

PTC: You just had to bring those words into it, didn't you? Yeah...those two words have caused me more sleepless nights then you can imagine.

Is B. A. ONLY in Florida...? Don't know...

 

[pat-tekker-cat]

Is B. A. ONLY in Florida...? Don't know...

Good question Rebel. I always assumed it was nation-wide, but I am wrong. It is a Florida law/act. This site gives some comprehensive details.
Baker Act

There is also another act/law, I think called Marchmans act. I'm not that familiar with it.
I think most states have some kind of protocol for voluntary and/or involuntary 72 hour psych evaluations, under certain circumstances. You would possibly need to review or google that for the state you reside in.

 

[UncleMatt]

Ooops, wrong thread, sorry

 

[Crispin]

PTC: Marchment Act is for people with drug problems being held against their will to get treatment. I've only seen it done once. I tried doing it once when I was inpatient. I was seeing a 20s something person who had a dozen suicide attempts only when drinking alcohol, very bad alcoholic. With the support of her parents, I tried to Marchment Act her into a long term treatment facility. Judge denied it. Very hard to use a Marchment act.

 

[bill from lachine]

Crispin,

Good thread and well thought out post.

Pretty clear cut in my mind......almost similar to making a citizen's arrest.....if someone is going to do serious harm to themselves or others and makes that fact public to member of the medical profession.....you do what you have to do to stop said action......as an ethical member of the general public.....I wouldn't hesitate for a second to make the same judgement call.

Regards + HH

Bill

 

[Rebel - KGC]

Ooops, wrong thread, sorry

OK, here...

 

[Crispin]

bumped from other thread:
"I don't think anyone is attacking the mentally ill when they simply suggest they should not be allowed access to firearms. And there are different degrees of mental illness, some worthy of supervision like that, and some not. What is lacking is the system to make those determinations. And paranoia also applies to those who think imaginary foes are after them and their guns. When the same people who own guns start displaying traits that are associated with serious mental illness, should nothing be done at all? Should those warning signs and red flags being waved around just be ignored, yes or no? And if your child was at the muzzle of their gun, would your answer still be the same?"

1. Suggesting the mentally ill should be restricted access to firearms is illogial, prejudice, and uneducated. It is this type of thinking that prevents veterans and other people who are suffering from getting help. People who suffer from diabetes can become psychotic if their blood sugar gets too high or low. Should we prevent them from having access to guns? Steroids are a common treatment for a variety of illnesses and diseases. It is well known and documented that steroids can make people psychotic. Should these people be prevented from buying guns? I could go on and on, but I think you get my point.
2. Mental Illness is a blanket statement that covers a broad spectrum. It can vary from a friend with depression, to a vet with PTSD, to a fear of snakes, to a homeless schizophrenic, to an antisocial personality disorder who kills masses. Millions of millions of americans are taking and benefit from psychotropic medicines.
3. The "craziest" examples of mental illness are homeless, untreated schizophrenics. Anybody who has visited a major city has witnessed this. San Franciso has the largest population of these people. These types of people are disorganized at best. It is a very sad condition. They literally, do not have the cognitive ability to plan a meal or where they are going to sleep. They do not kill people, most of them are victims. They are easy targets for predators and sociopaths. A homeless woman disappears...nobody asks any questions...nobody knows they are gone. The only way one of these people could get a gun would be if you walked up and placed it in their hands. Even then, they would probably lose it in less then 24 hours.
4. As I have said in other posts. Mass murderers are extremely rare in society. Most of them are intelligent (IQ wise) and avoid seeing a doctor at all costs. Psychiatrists are the experts and they will readily admit that these people are impossible to identify and impossible to prevent. Schools are developing programs for 'at risk' students. They have been beneficial in improving mental health but have done little to identify these people. There is nobody on this earth qualified to makes these "determinations."
5. When people start to display traits of serious mental illness, what should be done, is getting them to an ER. I have seen countless patients in the ER that were brought to the hospital by police instead of being brought to jails. Officers are getting more education on how to recognize mental illness so we can get these people help, and they are continuing to do a better job. I have seen people fake mental illness to get out of arrest. Take a guess what I do...you got it, I call the police and have them pick them up out of the ER and take them to jail.
6. If somebody tells me they plan on pointing a gun at a child they do not leave my office unescorted by police. Their homes are searched and their weapons are siezed. No warrant...no nothing. This is what doctors can do and will do. This is more then enough power...let us leave it at this.

Concluding thoughts: The problem of gun control does not belong in the same sentence with mental health. Mental Health is being used as a scapegoat. I do not know if there is an answer to the problem with gun control, but do not allow the media (or people on this site) to mislead you. Leave mental health out of that discussion.

 

[Rebel - KGC]

AGREE!

 

[bill from lachine]

Crispin,

Well said.....you've pretty much covered all the bases and then some.

Regards + HH

Bill

 

[BC1969]

I certainly missed a bunch during my hiatus.

 

[Escape]

I think most people are basically nutty.

 

[Rebel - KGC]

How so...?

 

[BC1969]

I think that anyone who claims to be normal has serious issues.

Tell me, how can anyone claim normal if all of us are different ?

Stem cells are the answer and certain DNA markers.
With time, they'll erase schizophrenia from the gene pool.
Believe me, that's precisely what is taking place in medical research.
And once everyone is the same... you'll all be robotic slaves...and you won't even know it.

I removed my rose colored glasses thanks to the old second amendment forum.
Really opened up my eyes.

BC