gun flint?

[unclemac]

all this talk of gun flints got me thinking....I always supposed this was a broken base to a point but now I am not all that sure. it is nicely flaked all the way around but as you can see it is snapped on two sides...cleanly snapped with no sign of wear after the break. Is this a gun flint?...If so it would have been from a trade gun supplied by HBC or NWC...or even Astor's company...Mouth of the Columbia area.

 

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[GatorBoy]

Wow.. all that about a gun Flint?
Anywhere there was a gun before percussion caps were invented there will be Flint.. where you come up with the idea that no gun flints were ever in his area is pretty close to impossible.
Did you really need all of those quotes to say you think its a scraper?
Why don't we ask if that material is common for him to find native American artifacts made from where he is?

 

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[scepter1]

I've lived inthe area for 65 years, and I know a bit about the history of the area. As he himself said:

"true, but the area wasn't settled to any extent until the the 1850's... "

So how many gunflints were used 1850 and after?

And yes, the GEM POINT chalcedony/agate material of the Columbia River is world famous ! Why promote French gunflint?

 

[GatorBoy]

I mixed some up here.
In this photo there is French,British,Spanish and Native American made Flint..as well as a couple broken ones.







None of these are scrapers.
The Spanish controlled Florida twice..taking it from Britain once..the Creeks from the north allied with the Brittish to remove the Seminole population ..so there is quite the mix on good ground here.
What he has is simply a gun Flint..
And yes...its made of Flint.

 

[jackflashz]

LOL

 

[GMD52]

The area would not have had to be settled per se to find a European gun flint. Lewis and Clark, English and French fur trappers and traders, the Native tribes, explorers, Military expeditions were all over the West and Northwest prior to settlement, and most carried flintlock firearms even after the enterence of percussion caps. Most all carried 1-2 tears worth of flints obtained at the fur roundeveous, and trading forts. Then even tended to carry flintlocks later, because they were afraid of losing the caps in the wilderness, and not being able to replace them. Flints could be manufactured in the wilds to survive and get back to a fort or trading camp. My opinion is gunflint, and entirely possible from the area, most likely lost by early French trader to the tribes.....Gary

 

[scepter1]

Yes, photos of nice gun flints from what is now the FLORIDA area, which is thousands of miles away and were used WAY BEFORE before the Northwest was settled. So... ?

None of my questions were answered.

If it's a gun flint, then just maybe it wasn't really found on the Lower Columbia.

He could try for a COA !

 

[jackflashz]

Gatorboy, last night on the obsidian topic, you gave unclemac some good advice:

"I suggest you research your specific area on the internet. Look at artifacts found there".

Seems appropriate here as well.

 

[GatorBoy]

GMD52 took the time to explain what I did not..thank you.
all of your questions have very logical and fairly simple answers Scepter.
Good day all.

 

[timekiller]

East coast flints in the daylight,colonist 17th/18th century,english,french,spanish,Native,& 19th century settlers.Colonist & settlers kinda mean the same but to me I use colonist to describe some of the first people to use a site besides the N/A & normally the signs show that they did not stay for long period of time also would be a site that my finds tend to be 16th/17th/18th century.Settlers I use for a site that shows a long period of stay lots of signs/relics, of for here late 18th into 19th century seemed like they tended to stay at a spot by then for a longer time frame.Just to clear up how I think or talk of people from our past.May not be right but I'm my own teacher so it will do for me
Take Care,
Pete,

 

[timekiller]

The raw material I've found at these sites where they were making them.

 

[scepter1]

QUOTE=GatorBoy;3539860]GMD52 took the time to explain what I did not..thank you.
all of your questions have very logical and fairly simple answers Scepter.
Good day all.[/QUOTE]

Then why no answers?

"Being possible' is not the same thing as "found" -It's "possible" I'll win powerball

The simple question if French gun flints have ever been found there or not? remains open. Photos of East coast gun flints are nice, but don't provide any answers.

 

[jackflashz]

I'd also like to know too. Been to a lot of northwest museums and have never seen one. I just spent some time on google and didn't find anything useful there either. Any Northwest experts out there?

 

[unclemac]

boy...where to start...

first of all when I said the area wasn't settled until the 1850's I didn't mean that the natives had no prior contact with Europeans. Trade was WELL established in the 1700's and there were multiple HBC trading forts in Washington State alone. One of the things they traded was trade guns. Here is a link to the two best known ones in the area.

Fort Vancouver - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Fort Nisqually - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

the American (John Jacob Astor) Fur company was also active in the area...read here...(Astoria)

Astoria, Oregon - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

there was also the rival "Northwest Company" and also the "Russian American Company" active in the area....so...yes...trade guns were present.

The area I found this in was in the heart of coastal Chinook country, not 15 miles as the crow flies from modern day Astoria. this is what Meriwether Lewis had to say about the Chinook and trade guns....

On January 15, 1806, Captain Lewis commented on the armament of the Chinook Indians, incidentally revealing the quality of their arms, and their tendency to abuse them (cp. "Thunder Gun ").​

their guns are usually of an inferior quality being oald refuse American & brittish Musquits which have been repared for this trade. they are invariably in bad order; they apear not to have been long enouh accustomed to fire arms to understand the management of them. They have no rifles, . . . obtain their ammunition from the traders; when they happen to have no ball or shot, they substitute gravel or peices of potmettal, and are insensible of the damage done thereby to their guns.​

Even though the Hudson’s Bay Company and other traders passed tens of thousands of trade fusils to the Indians, the guns are quite scarce today. In the hands of the Indians, the guns suffered extensive use and abuse. When they were beyond repair, they were broken down for scrap. The buttplates were typically used as hide scrapers, and the barrels were flattened at the muzzle to serve as digging implements

​

...did you read the part about "tens of thousands"?.......

so I think we can safely say that .."yes" trade guns were VERY present in the area that I found this.

now let's see....oh yes...."French" gun flint....it could be French but surely doesn't have to be...it could easily be native made out of inferior material which may explain the damage....flint is chalcedony...so is carnelian.....if this is native carnelian than it causes steel too spark, perhaps not as good but try it yourself.

All my artifacts from Washington State are from the Chinookian area, which as you know is most definitely not the same as the Salish area you hunt.

as for your 65 years...pah....I can see you that and raise you a decade...born and raised....

I think i covered it....but let me know....

 

[scepter1]

Then it should be very easy to show a reference to a gun flint having been found on the lower Columbia. I'm very open to there being some found and would like to find one myself, but still haven't seen any evidence. I've also been to the forts, and they displayed no flints, found or otherwise.

 

[unclemac]

actually when you visit the local museums in the area you find a whole lot of nothing before about the 20th century. The Chinook were a VERY influential tribe...I am sure YOU know "Chinook Jargon"....but to THIS DAY, they are not an "official" recognized tribe. Hell, I know several Chinook that have lived in the same place (but not called a reservation) for generations and know of 3 ancient village sites that have not been excavated. Hop on the internet and search for coastal Chinook artifacts of ANY kind...you will find a whole lot of nothing...it is almost as if they never existed. Yet I find evidence on the beaches all the time and hoist a beer with their descendants on a regular basis.

 

[scepter1]

i totally agree with you on that! I had a Washington History teacher that couldn't go through a class session without working (a Chinook Jargon) "high-you-muck-a-mucka" someplace in his lecture. It's frustrating doing research on the Artifacts I find here - the northwest artifact books don't dwell on the Salish Sea... And (no offense to anyone here) I haven't had alot of success with id help on the forums. Seriously, if you really think that's gun flint, I'd get a COA - it seems like it would be quite valuable.

 

[unclemac]

i totally agree with you on that! I had a Washington History teacher that couldn't go through a class session without working (a Chinook Jargon) "high-you-muck-a-mucka" someplace in his lecture. It's frustrating doing research on the Artifacts I find here - the northwest artifact books don't dwell on the Salish Sea... And (no offense to anyone here) I haven't had alot of success with id help on the forums. Seriously, if you really think that's gun flint, I'd get a COA - it seems like it would be quite valuable.

I haven't had alot of success with id help on the forums.....

word.....(as they say)....(I love picking up new jargon).

love the folks here but they don't know a Wallula from a Merrybell from a Rabbit Island....(no offence to ANYBODY here)

to be honest I don't care enough to get a COA. I just pick up what I can still see.....found a dandy agate flake knife just the other day in fact.

 

[Charl]

My initial reply here involved an assumption, namely, people were right saying gunflint. I have to admit, though, that I agree you can't really be certain from that photo, I think it might possibly be a scraper or small tool fragment after all.
the following will not answer the question of gunflints in the Columbia River drainage, but is an excellent study of English gunflint manufacture:

2012: ?State of the Art? of British Gunflint Research, with special focus on the early gunflint workshop from Dun Eistean, Lewis | Torben Bjarke Ballin - Academia.edu

 

[Charl]

Only one I've found this color. English, probably a trade piece as it was found on a 17th century native camp...

 

[BosnMate]

The French, the English, and the natives themselves all made gunflints. The amber colored or honey colored ones were made in France, the others in England, and of course you can find native gunflints made from their local flints, but many were obtained from the Europeans. So if they are amber, they are usually ID'd as French gunflints. This one is English, and looks like it wasn't used up before lost...

You can purchase gun flints right now, that look just like that one, from several sources, including Dixie Gun Works. I have several,
and like the English flints the best.