Harassed by " The Man "

[team sidewinder]

The story I use when some authority " The Man " questions me about my metal detecting on public property ( usually a park or tot lot ) in a different town than my own where I really don't know what the metal detecting laws are. I tell them this story. I make sure I don't have my wedding band on and tell them I just lost my wedding band the other day while in this park area and I am trying to find it. Or my wife lost her wedding ring while we were visiting here the other day. Or while here in this " tot lot " with my grandkids ( I really don't have any ) I just lost my wedding ring and am looking for it. Works every time but you might not want to use it more than once in that town but usually they will tell you to continue and not do it anymore and will let you at least finish looking in that area. Most police are very sympathetic to the plight of a man/woman who is looking for a lost wedding ring. They don't want to look as a town who doesn't welcome visitors or treats their visitors like criminals without just cause.

 

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[LifeNRA]

Ok I'm standing on grey ground here! I don't agree with you NRA, nor do I agree with Team Sidewinder!

You guys got your methods, I got my own......
And I could be wrong....... But I'm not.

By all means, I am not asking for anyone to chose my side! I know the difference between right and wrong. I surely don't need anyone standing behind me!

Amazing how easily one's moral values are traded off just to dig a hole. Seriously a lie is a lie is a lie and what is being shown to those just starting in this hobby? As far as that statement about just because its not written somewhere doesn't mean it isn't somewhere. Is it not your responsibility to find out what the local laws are, guess what, they are. Plz act like you expect others to act. Just because there isn't a sign for everything you shouldn't do doesn't mean go do it.

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My point is this AGAIN! Its not about the digging, its about the LYING! Being DECEITFUL! Having no RESPECT! Lack of KNOWLEDGE in an unknown area! Doing your HOMEWORK before you venture out! (Gee the bold underline purple works as well! )

Even though a PUBLIC land has NOTHING on the books about METAL DETECTING. I can see where it would fall under the category of causing "destruction" or "damage". A loop hole in the laws where a person of either law enforcement or parks and recreation, or some other kind of city or county management, could see what we do as damage to thus said public grounds. Not everyone on this earth knows what people do with a metal detector.

 

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[Tom_in_CA]

.... .Even though a PUBLIC land has NOTHING on the books about METAL DETECTING. I can see where it would fall under the category of causing "destruction" or "damage". A loop hole in the laws where a person of either law enforcement or parks and recreation, or some other kind of city or county management, could see what we do as damage to thus said public grounds. Not everyone on this earth knows what people do with a metal detector.

Life NRA, I assume you leave no damage, holes, etc... when you detect, right? I mean, you fill in your holes, stomp it down, ruffle it up, etc... RIGHT? Then you are not "destructing" or "damaging" ANYTHING now are you?

Yes, someone else might not see it that way. But I do not say to myself: "Metal detecting = damage, destruction, vandalism and defacement". If you make that automatic equivalance that "md'ing = destruction", then yes, by all means, stay at home and give up detecting.

Your error is in giving in to that automatic equivalence. And thinking that simply because SOMEONE ELSE may claim or accuse us/you of that, that we all must bow down to that lowest common denominator, and spend our lives trying to make any and all busy-bodies happy and love us. It aint gonna happen.

For example: I once had a lady claim my detector was bothering her dog (no kidding!). I think she thought it emitted some sort of frequency sound that only dogs hear? Now you tell me: Was it my obligation to appease her, and make her happy, and leave the beach? No. Of course not. I give lip service, and let her wander away mumbling to herself.

So rather than think to yourself "I must get permission to deface and vandalize the park", it's better to avoid such lookie-lou busy bodies. I mean, for pete's sake, can't you go at low traffic times and be a little discreet? Think of it like nose picking: not necessarily illegal but ... for heavens sake, we *all* sort of use a little discretion in our timing, right?

You're simply not going to find any places that allow you to deface and destruct. If that becomes your automatic definition of what metal detecting is (or to think that someone else's interpretation rules your life) is to loose the battle already. For the rest of us, we cover our holes, and know that's what the intent of those words/terms mean. For anyone else who thinks differently, well .... I avoid those lookie-lous.

 

[RotZorn]

Tom I think you're on grey ground as well, nicely said.

 

[bzbadger]

Seriously TOM from CA? You can't follow or understand? Your argument was hard to follow. The blue shoes comment etc. We are not talking about secret laws and a cop tricking you etc...you know there are already laws in place right now I seriously doubt blue shoe wearing ppl need check with the local authorities to see of they can walk through the park however now im going out on a limb here there just may be some places that ppl don't want holes dug. Tell you what just go ask a cop who's job it is to make sure they follow ordinances, the cops going to tell you its your responsibility. You can't just walk around life with the thought process it's easier to ask for forgiveness than permission. Do you have a no metal detecting sign up in your yard, if not then anyone should be able to just start digging there because hey they didn't know you didn't want them to because with your logic they shouldn't have to come ask you.

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[RotZorn]

Seriously TOM from CA? You can't follow or understand? Your argument was hard to follow. The blue shoes comment etc. We are not talking about secret laws and a cop tricking you etc...you know there are already laws in place right now I seriously doubt blue shoe wearing ppl need check with the local authorities to see of they can walk through the park however now im going out on a limb here there just may be some places that ppl don't want holes dug. Tell you what just go ask a cop who's job it is to make sure they follow ordinances, the cops going to tell you its your responsibility. You can't just walk around life with the thought process it's easier to ask for forgiveness than permission. Do you have a no metal detecting sign up in your yard, if not then anyone should be able to just start digging there because hey they didn't know you didn't want them to because with your logic they shouldn't have to come ask you.

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Seriously?

No, his yard is different because it only belongs only to him (Tom). It is private property.

Parks are different than that because they are PUBLIC. So they belong to everyone. They are public lands.

Ever wonder why some parks have the "scoop the poop" signs and some don't? Because some parks don't want dog crap on the grass where people will be picnicking, or playing frisbee, or metal detecting. Some parks don't have those signs because its not a problem there... I guess

So you can easily see the difference in this example... Or can you?

As I said before, our rights end where the next persons begin. So if you show up at the park with your 5 dogs, and they crap everywhere, it would be easy to see how your rights to walk your dogs at the park have interfered with my rights to go there and have a picnic.... Provided they poop- and you don't scoop?!?!

By the same token if I go to the same park and dig countless holes at various depths, WITHOUT FILLING THEM AND LEAVING TRASH BEHIND.... I will have trespassed upon your rights to go to that park and enjoy your own picnic.

THE BOTTOM LINE- if the city, township, etc. does not want dog poop in their park, they will post signs.

If they don't want me, or Tom, or whoever.... To metal detect- they will also POST A SIGN.

So.... If you don't see a sign about scooping are you going to go ask someone if its ok to walk your dog there? No. You aren't. Your going to walk the dog, and your also going to have enough sense about yourself to make sure it doesn't go right next to someone else's picnic basket!

....And people like Tom and myself, are going to have enough sense about ourselves, to fill in holes, pick up trash, and try not to disturb others.

This argument is a lost cause because people like you don't know their own rights. Parks and other public lands are there for our recreational usage. Guess what? Metal detecting is a recreational activity.... That's why we do it- for fun. Just like throwing a frisbee, or playing volleyball, or any other pastime you enjoy at the park.

If I leave the lands as I found them when I'm done, I have infringed on your rights none. You can use the park the same as you would if I had never been there period..........

So unless its posted, I'm not going to ask.

 

[bzbadger]

Well rot I was making a statement against his earlier statement that no there doesn't have to be signs everywhere but just because there isn't a sign doesn't mean its ok and that the original posters excuse was to LIE about it saying he lost his wedding ring or his wife lost hers. Yes I understand and it seems you feel it necessary to challenge my intelligence for whatever reason. II don't like giving out personal info to ppl on sites such as this but I wore a badge for years until I was disabled from a disease and I was in a round about way trying to point out what officer normally tell ppl...its your obligation to know its an officers obligation to know and enforce. Amazing how fast certain ppl want to make something personal. Pointing out something is one thing but to make snide backhanded comments is just showing there is a problem in life somewhere. My last reply on this post, too many ppl venting on others to make themselves feel better.

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[RotZorn]

Well rot I was making a statement against his earlier statement that no there doesn't have to be signs everywhere but just because there isn't a sign doesn't mean its ok and that the original posters excuse was to LIE about it saying he lost his wedding ring or his wife lost hers. Yes I understand and it seems you feel it necessary to challenge my intelligence for whatever reason. II don't like giving out personal info to ppl on sites such as this but I wore a badge for years until I was disabled from a disease and I was in a round about way trying to point out what officer normally tell ppl...its your obligation to know its an officers obligation to know and enforce. Amazing how fast certain ppl want to make something personal. Pointing out something is one thing but to make snide backhanded comments is just showing there is a problem in life somewhere. My last reply on this post, too many ppl venting on others to make themselves feel better.

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If you read my other post in this thread, I quickly lashed out about lying to any authorities. It's uncalled for and unnecessary.

I do not question your intelligence nor integrity, and I apologize if I may have typed something that inferred that.

All that I question to you and others on this thread, is your mindset on the matter of detecting public lands. Metal detecting is not illegal in most places. Metal detectors themselves are not outlawed in any place that I'm aware of, but it seems there is an ominous cloud hanging about the people who use them.

Most of us are not looking to break the rules or any law. But our rights to use them on public lands should be preserved without having to have a permit, and without someone harassing us if we aren't disturbing others.

I for one, refuse to lie about detecting ever and to anyone. There are worse things that go in in parks or at beaches, or other public lands. MDers shouldn't be treated like drug dealers, and we shouldn't have to ask to use public lands.

 

[panner59]

That's right! why do we pay taxes...in order to access OUR public lands. If they (da man) says I can't do something on our land then they are squashing our freedom to "the pursuit of happiness"! Pole-cats lie to us everyday!! If I have to pay taxes then I will do whatever it takes to enjoy my little part of freedom!!

 

[SaskSteve]

I enjoyed two beers in the time in took me to read this thread in its entirety. Thanks for the entertainment everyone. This topic has been covered so many times, and yet everyone seems to feel the need to hash it out... one. more. time. Seriously, I think some people just like the sound of their own voice. Or, in this instance, see the color and font of their text.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

bz-badger, your input is good balance, so please don't fail to chime in, or walk away from the conversation. Sorry I wasn't clear and wasn't "connected" with what I was trying to convey. No I was not the one who advocated "I lost my ring" lie, as the OP on this particular thread. But I do confess to suggesting that in other posts. And yes, to be down right morally ethical, sure, no one should ever tell a lie. And I've never even used the line myself, believe it or not.

I do not say that there needs to be a "no detecting" sign at a park entrance. Yes, other's say that, but you'll notice I never said that. I do acknowledge that such a rule *might* be "on the books" down at city hall (just like nudity ordinances, noise ordinances, etc...), yet not on the wooden sign at the park entrance. So if someone is skittish and worried that this might be the case, they're welcome to go down to city hall (or check on the city's website, as rules/codes are oft-times there) to see.

And no, I do not equate things like "defacement" and "alterations", etc... to mean "no metal detecting". As long as you leave no trace, then technically you're not afoul of that.

Is this to say that you'll be gauranteed zero busy-bodies with someone who interpets differently? No. Anyone can gripe.

Let me put it to you all this way, in a true example from my city:

Back in the mid 1980s, we had a metal detecting club here. At one of our monthly meetings, a first time guest was present in the audience. When the show & tell time of the meeting came up, the guys would go to the podium one at at a time to show off their find-of-the-month contest entry (which leads to the vote, and the prize, and other such geeky club stuff, right? haha). One of the members was up there during his turn, showing an old silver coin (barber or seated or whatever). And he says "... found in central park". (which is the main oldest park in our town). When the visitor heard that, he raised his hand and asked: "I thought md'ing was illegal in central park?". A few of us long-timers turned around, looked at him, and asked "since when?" and "who told you this?" . Because you see, the parks here had, at that time, just been detected, and no one had ever had a problem (unless you were being some sort of major nuisance I suppose). Well guess what his answer was? He had just moved to our city, and had gone down to city hall ... and asked! Now I don't know how he phrased it, or what went down, but .... somehow he got told "no you can't".

So now you have confusion amongst the club attendees. Some wondered "oh no, this means the parks are off-limits now", while others said "nonsense, you can hunt the parks and no one cares, so why did you think you had to ask?".

Thus you can see there really are examples of the "no one caring till you ask" pyschology. That was nearly 30 yrs. ago. And to this day, you can still detect the park here (providing you're not sticking out and being a nujsance) and no one cares. But sure, I suppose if I waltzed around city hall long enough, asking enough people at enough desks, using key buzzwords like "holes" "treasure", "dig", etc.... then SURE, I TOO could fetch myself a "no".

Thus, it's best to look up to see if there's any *specific* prohibitions on metal detecting YOURSELF. Don't put yourself at the whims of someone's arbitrary personal mood, opinion, and interpretation. Look it up for yourself. And if perchance someone "interprets differently" fine, you've been "appraised", give lip service, and avoid that one lookie-lou in the future.

I wish it weren't this way. I wish everyone loved my hobby and rolled out red carpets and banners saying "digging welcome here". But alas, it's not gonna be that way.

 

[Tnmountains]

Do not call other members names. You may discuss/debate this topic civilly or not at all. Thanks!

 

[Treasure_Hunter]

I suggest some members read our rules so a mod does not have to step in.... Thank you..

 

[scotty544]

 

[LifeNRA]

I take these names people call police personal. Which is probably why I chimed in here the way I did. I spent 10 years of my life on a volunteer ambulance. Nine of them years I was an EMT, EMT instructor, CPR Instructor, and Advanced First Aid Instructor. Also, I spent 18 years of my life as a volunteer firefighter as well. There has been times where the police saved my ass! Those that have names for them, one day! You will need them, better pray they show up! Cause if they don't in time, hopefully you will remember what you said!

I apologize for my actions, and only my actions.

 

[Jason in Enid]

I take these names people call police personal. Which is probably why I chimed in here the way I did. I spent 10 years of my life on a volunteer ambulance. Nine of them years I was an EMT, EMT instructor, CPR Instructor, and Advanced First Aid Instructor. Also, I spent 18 years of my life as a volunteer firefighter as well.

So what? Is that supposed to mean you are better than others here? It sure seems that way with how you keep throwing it out there. But just for the record I have 12+ years as a full time firefighter AND an EMT and a soldier (military POLICE), and an instructor and a rescue tech. If this is game of badges, you lose.

 

[Edward1976]

Like the guy from W+ET said, when in doubt, stay out. Yes, while it may be tempting to detect in an area of unknown legality, trust me, the Man DOES and WILL confiscate your gear and MAYBE put you in the slammer. It has happened, it will again, I've narrowly avoided both by ignoring law number one, won't tempt fate again. As for the we pay taxes angle, and the what sign? angle, I've never seen a sign that said "No Dumping Atomic Waste" in a park, is a $1,400 metal detector worth risking? I know, you may disagree with the government, every country has problems, and have people who do disagree, but like it or not, they're the ones in charge, and if a police officer gives you the Celebrity Bracelets with you saying I didn't know and I hate the government, it won't help. You have to look at it this way too: MDing is a pretty obscure hobby outside the beaches, and a lot of cops will assume anyone detecting, especially in a smallish town, knows one another. Therefore, Mr Policeman sees Jim detecting, knowing he warned another detectorist Bob not long ago not to detect, so now he assumes Jim, after Jim talking with Bob about not detecting in the park, is knowingly in violation of the law and doesn't care what the cops or Bob say. Dig?

 

[ironman]

Related to that, I usually wear a USMC hat or tshirt while hunting. Cops tend to treat Marines and other vets a little differently, whether that's fair of not. I figure it can't hurt!

I wear my mason hat

 

[mariposagold]

Like the police don't lie to you? Many are trained to do just that thing. Take a criminal justice course or Google about it. The "laws" in uniform lie regularly.

The Law is a funny animal, sometimes it's a furry rabbit, other times it's a Coyote and sometimes it's a skunk. Having worked in Law for the last 12 years, one thing I know for sure is, no one knows all the laws, including Police officers. Not only is it not possible to know all laws, a person must have experience and knowledge in a particular area of law.

I never take legal advice from police officers just because they are the police. I will follow there orders If they ask me to leave a place because they have authority to do so. I have never had a problem with the police and don't expect to since I'm non-confrontational and professional when dealing with them. I have had problems with busybody citizens that think they have authority. My response was to go back at a time I know they won't be there. LOL.

If I have to lie about what I'm doing, then it isn't worth doing. I'm hunting for treasure, relic and lost items of interest. If someone has a problem with that, it's their problem, not mine. I will not have busybodies interfering with my freedom to pursue happiness.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

reply

Like the guy from W+ET said, when in doubt, stay out. Yes, while it may be tempting to detect in an area of unknown legality, trust me, the Man DOES and WILL confiscate your gear and MAYBE put you in the slammer. It has happened, it will again, I've narrowly avoided both by ignoring law number one, won't tempt fate again. As for the we pay taxes angle, and the what sign? angle, I've never seen a sign that said "No Dumping Atomic Waste" in a park, is a $1,400 metal detector worth risking? I know, you may disagree with the government, every country has problems, and have people who do disagree, but like it or not, they're the ones in charge, and if a police officer gives you the Celebrity Bracelets with you saying I didn't know and I hate the government, it won't help. You have to look at it this way too: MDing is a pretty obscure hobby outside the beaches, and a lot of cops will assume anyone detecting, especially in a smallish town, knows one another. Therefore, Mr Policeman sees Jim detecting, knowing he warned another detectorist Bob not long ago not to detect, so now he assumes Jim, after Jim talking with Bob about not detecting in the park, is knowingly in violation of the law and doesn't care what the cops or Bob say. Dig?

Edward, let's dissect your post slowly:

a) "...while it may be tempting to detect in an area of unknown legality..." When does a place, in your opinion, finally become one of "known legality"? I'm just curious. Like ... when you see an "express allowance" saying something like "detecting welcome here"? No, of course not. I hope you would agree that as long as there's no rules forbidding it, then presto, it's not forbidden, right? So at what point would you convince yourself, for any given park or school yard, that you can go? Would it be because you've looked up the rules for your city (laws, code, charter, etc...) and found nothing saying "no metal detecting"? Or not until you've got the blessing of someone in city hall to tell you their blessing: "go ahead" ?

b) "I've narrowly avoided both by ignoring law number one, won't tempt fate again..." I don't know the details of your encounter, but ...fill us in. I'm sure there's rogue over-zealous cops who have roughed up persons for something like a tail-light out. But I'm sure that wouldn't stop you from driving, right? And I'm sure therefore, that rogue stories DO exist for md'ing. I'm sure someone, somewhere, was thrown in the slammer for detecting the sandbox for modern pennies. But sheesk, is there EVER a point where we can look at some incidents as exceptions, rather than indications that we must grovel for permission to breath? Please fill us in on what happened to you.

c) "the Man DOES and WILL confiscate your gear and MAYBE put you in the slammer. It has happened...." I do not know of any person who has had his gear confiscated, and put into the slammer, for a place which did not have a rule saying "no detecting". I suppose if he "appraised you" that you were bothering earthworms, and you thumbed your nose at him and continued, then yes: you'd be guilty of failing to obey an officer. But aside from someone who "can't take a warning" and/or aside from a place with an actual specific rule saying "no detecting", can you cite an incident for us of ANYONE who got his "gear confiscated" and "put in the slammer", for detecting innocuous parks and such?

d) "I've never seen a sign that said "No Dumping Atomic Waste" in a park...." Right. And there are no rules on the park sign forbidding nudity either. However, those rules ARE down at city hall (or higher levels subrogated down from county and/or state levels) for things like atomic polution, murder, nudity, etc.... Thus yes, those rules CAN be looked up. In the SAME way someone can look up to see if detecting is illegal. There is no "hidden" laws. They are all available for public viewing somewhere, somehow, some way.

 

[ironman]

Man Tnet would make a dam good jerry springer episode. Next on Springer metal detecting scrooges stay tuned