Harumph

[MadMarshall]

So I put this garbage on in the garage as background.
Stream the Miner's Guild Free | Power Talk 1360

I found the whole thing absurd.

One of the biggest problems the mining community faces is "RECREATIONAL MINERS" like Robert goin around advocating nonsense..

 

[Goldfleks]

You might be able to argue that the increasing number of recreational dredgers, dredging non paying ground (not covering gas/expenses/etc) ruined it for the small scale miners dredging paying claims.

 

[Clay Diggins]

I think the point that was being made was. Why do people claim 1/2 gram a yard ground in the first place? Every post has concluded that less than 2 or 3 grams a yard is not profitable and dare I say... Recreational. So they are basically glorified camping spots. I don't think anybody is against mining claims or mineral rights. I know im not.. if I ever found something worth claiming (to me) I would want my rights protected.

I may not mine for a living, but I'm a business man and why would you even pay the couple hundred bucks a year for the claim if it's non paying ground?!? That's where the confusion comes in...it doesn't make any sense.

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Anybody can camp on your claim. You don't have any special rights beyond your right to the minerals when you own a claim.

A lot of "claims" are just an ego boost. The thing is you can't possibly know whether a claim that's made for someones ego actually has good minerals or not. Assuming all claims are locking you out of profitable prospecting is just as much speculation as assuming that all claims are made so someone can prospect on labor day. That's the nature of a mining claim, it's not yours. You can imagine the grass is greener over there but you can't possibly know.

As a simple fact it's best to let sleeping dogs lie. If it's not yours just move on and find your own spot. Do you drive down the street and wonder if all those other people have all the cool stuff you ever wanted in their garage? Do you imagine they are all filled with worthless junk? You can't know without getting to know those people well enough to get a good inventory of their garage. If you made friends with all those people just to find out what was in their garage you wouldn't be a very good friend. In fact you would be a snoop and a busybody. Point made?

Don't assume.

Here's a true story. I was running the back roads of New Mexico looking for a prospect. I ran into an older Spanish gentleman who wanted to know what I was up to in his very rural "neighborhood". Being a good visitor I told him. I produced a vial and he produced a vial. We both grinned and thanked the Virgin for such a good life. The man showed me a pit far up the mountain and said I could dig there for a few days. I asked him what was in this pit. He told me the pit so far had produced a good life and burial for his grandparents, a good life and retirement for his parents, paid hospital bills for his several children's births, fixed his broken leg, provided dental work and braces for two of his children and dentures for his wife, provided the truck he was driving and several more through the years and in general had been a good way of spending time when life became overwhelmingly modern.

I was impressed at his experience and his generosity. I observed that this pit hadn't been mined in quite a while. He explained that it was last worked for a summer by his third daughter when she was ready to go to college. I asked him if the summer's work had paid her first years tuition? He replied that all of his children had worked their summer in the pit so they could pay for their degrees, including their tuition. He assured me they would return when life brought them expenses not normally covered by hard work and honest living.

The one thing I didn't ask the man was why he continued to make his annual filings and pay his fees even though he hadn't mined there in many years. It would have been a silly question once I'd seen inside his life.

Bustamante passed in 2014. Thousands of people came to pay their respects. I didn't need to ask them why.

Rest in Peace Brother and know your kin still make their annual filings and pay their fees even though no one has mined there in many years.

Heavy Pans

 

[Goldfleks]

That just gave me an idea on dredging...

Not to throw a wrench in the whole thing, but... What if the dredging solution was basically allowing dredging of paying claims... and not "Hobby" dredging?

Basically, attack the problem from the point of finances.

It keeps the recreational dredgers off the river who are dredging claims with poor $/yard returns. but allows miners with paying claims to get back to work.

The result is fewer dredges in the water, so the enviros are satisfied. And claim owners with paying claims are able to extract their mineral rights. I'm not sure how you would police this. Maybe the permit process (I know, no one wants a permit) revolves around the assumption that a certain amount of paying gold will be extracted from the ground, and the miner pays on that % up front. The permit cost would be high enough to dissuade casual dredging, but low enough to no effect claims with actual valuable mineral deposits. Not to mention, if you're running an actual mining business for profit, the permit would be a tax write-off at the end of the year.

 

[KevinInColorado]

Hmm, good point Clay!

 

[okbasspro]

I went back and forth on this for a while when I first got into prospecting. Looking at all the area's around me in southern CA that were claimed up, while at the same time showed no active mining being done on them. Which was frustrating as a greenie, because all I wanted to do was put my box in the water and run some local dirt but couldn't without breaking mining claim laws.

It all felt pretty unfair.

And the answers were all the same. Either go stake your own, which is kinda difficult when every plot of land on the only local river is already claimed up. Or buy a claim from someone for some outrageous price. Which would just be a loss because they are asking way more than the ground is actually worth. Bottom line, most ground really isn't worth mining for a profit. Because if it was, some company would already be mining it (they already did). Most of the ground we're mining today isn't worth the spot value of the gold, which is why, "PayDirt" has become so popular. Sell .25 worth of gold for $5.00.

Most of the ground mined in the past was only worth mining when you could hydrolic mine the sides of the mountain for such a low cost/yard to make it profitable. I look at the ground I sluice on up in San Gabriel. It's on an old hydrolic mining claim from the past. I've probably run 100 buckets at least, if not more, for what? Half a gram of gold. That dirt produces what? 1 gram a yard? You coudn't even mine that ground with heavy machinery and cover fuel costs. I think the only person who could mine San Gabriel if they had the permission would be Todd Hoffman. Since all of his opperations opperate successfully at a loss.

Remember, Mining the Miners has ALWAYS been profitable. Makes sense that creating a mining club and mining the miners is the only profitable way to make money on such low paying dirt. Shannon get's to collect his paycheck from AMRA, which is probably WAY more $ a year than he could EVER pull from the ground, even if he dredged 24 hours a day 365/year. And families across the country get access to claims all over the country. It's a Win/Win for Shannon and AMRA under current mining laws.

Now if you want my opinion on current mining laws well that's completely different.

I personally think that unless you're activly mining a claim for PROFIT, than you shouldn't be able to squat on a claim. Which would probably open up acres and acres of land across the country for "recreational" prospecting because tons of claims would become invalid. I personally don't think that John Doe should be able to lock me out of 20 acres of river because he bought the claim off EBay for a couple grand and wants to reserve it for his personal use on Labor Day weekend every year. I also think that this same John Doe wouldn't see any reduction in his enjoyment of the SAME land if the river was open to everyone to run some dirt in. Why? Because it's not profitable land. The value of that claim is in the enjoyment the claim owner gets from the camping, the vacation time, whatever, and the little flash in their pan they get when they are done. But when it's all said and done, if you added up all the costs associated with mining that land on Labor Day: The drive out, the fuel costs, the time spent, etc there is no REAL profit. It's a HOBBY.

I'm not a member of AMRA or any local clubs. I'm not stupid. I know that if I spend the $100 to get access to those clubs claims, I'm going to dig up the SAME 1 gram a yard that I dig up in San Gabriel. Most ground just isn't profitable to mine. And after fuel/food/time costs I'm not going to be in the black, even if I mined on club claims 8 hours a day like a regular job. I doubt I could even recover the $2500 if I mined daily for the rest of my lift.

Because lets be real. If Shannon (or any of these clubs) had claim's that actually PAID. Well you and I both know that members of AMRA aren't getting access to them.

I have a claim that's a 2500 mile round trip haul. At 1 gram a yard it pays. If you run 2 yards of that dirt a hour that's $80 a hour and that my friend is a paying wage. I have to run that dirt to get down to the pay layer which has produced as much as 10 grams a yard. My 4" dredge only burns $1.50 gas a hour in my opinion that's a profitable way of running. I am always looking for more ground so once I am retired I have different areas to work. I can leave my claims to my kids and they will have ground to work. It seems most people that cry about claimed land just don't want to do the leg work to get good ground and that makes you a recreational miner.

 

[mytimetoshine]

still don't understand why questioning why someone would stake a claim is perceived as not respecting said claim. Or somehow "crying" about not having ground to work.

So if a recreational miner gets more gold then a so called professional working a claim. who is the real winner?

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[Goldwasher]

That just gave me an idea on dredging...

Not to throw a wrench in the whole thing, but... What if the dredging solution was basically allowing dredging of paying claims... and not "Hobby" dredging?

Basically, attack the problem from the point of finances.

It keeps the recreational dredgers off the river who are dredging claims with poor $/yard returns. but allows miners with paying claims to get back to work.

The result is fewer dredges in the water, so the enviros are satisfied. And claim owners with paying claims are able to extract their mineral rights. I'm not sure how you would police this. Maybe the permit process (I know, no one wants a permit) revolves around the assumption that a certain amount of paying gold will be extracted from the ground, and the miner pays on that % up front. The permit cost would be high enough to dissuade casual dredging, but low enough to no effect claims with actual valuable mineral deposits. Not to mention, if you're running an actual mining business for profit, the permit would be a tax write-off at the end of the year.

first there are less resource users now than before. Less dredgers not more. The cost for an agency to explore and prove a claim, would be so inflated and drawn out that it would prevent actual work. How on earth would you figure out the claims held already. The potential lawsuits abound.
Paying for something you don't have yet that changes price often and has many unforeseen costs to produce is not something we need to get the gov. in on. Already we don't pay a tax until we sell the resource...screw a royalty.
Every beginner needs a place to start. Jumping into the wild trying to find open good ground is a task for many.Cutting your teeth on a mediocre club claim is a step more than anything.
I still haven't seen a logical argument on how bubba and jessup working a spot that has been thrice pounded and barely breaks even for the weekend is affecting a guy who works his claim often for supplement or a wage. His best plan may be focused sporadic runs when better deposits are found within his holdings.

Guys like that have nothing to lose from the activities of the former.

The issues being thrown at us are not because of Bubba and Jessup....they are because some people don't want people out in the woods digging for any reason.

The last thing they need is people on our side coming up with convoluted schemes that only let those that can pay play.

It is exactly what they want. You do realize you basically came up with a way to shut you out. You don't own a claim, I'm assuming you don't own a dredge. So, what would your plan be. You see I promise if there was a magic wand and dredging was "legal" in Cali. right now. You could be out doing it for less than 1k with the help of friends and a friends or club claim to go try it out.

If we had the magic devil stick you mentioned NOT SO MUCH....
You need to get out of the city girl and I don't mean for the weekend.

 

[Goldfleks]

I have a claim that's a 2500 mile round trip haul. At 1 gram a yard it pays. If you run 2 yards of that dirt a hour that's $80 a hour and that my friend is a paying wage. I have to run that dirt to get down to the pay layer which has produced as much as 10 grams a yard. My 4" dredge only burns $1.50 gas a hour in my opinion that's a profitable way of running. I am always looking for more ground so once I am retired I have different areas to work. I can leave my claims to my kids and they will have ground to work. It seems most people that cry about claimed land just don't want to do the leg work to get good ground and that makes you a recreational miner.

I'll bite.

But only because I kicked the hornet's nest by mentioning locating laws and my opinion of them. Plus I enjoy these conversations. I mean no disrespect, but things of this nature are never as simple as you make them out to be. First off, I'm not making this a have's vs have not type of an argument. But telling people "boohoo you don't want to do the legwork to get good ground," isn't helping. EFSG pays about as well as your claim 2500 miles away, and if we can ever get dredges in the water again I might consider going in on one with some friends and running the river bottom that hasn't been dredged for nearly 10 years. I'm not afraid to get dirty or do hard work. So I have access to plenty of low-grade unclaimed river to run locally when I get the itch. So I don't need to stake a 1g/y claim 2500 miles away.

I'm not about to drive across the country to dredge. Commuting 2500 miles to my theoretical 1g/yard claim isn't exactly good business. Even you know this, which is why you save it for vacations and for when you're retired. It's an opportunity cost compared to what you're doing now (your career) and if your 1g/y claim provided anything remotely competitive in income/stability you would be mining it for income today. But it doesn't. Keep in mind, I'm not disputing that your claim pay's anywhere from 1g to 10g a yard. It's just that in the modern world, 1g/y for MOST people isn't exciting enough to get them to quit their day jobs and take up mining full time.

1g/y is, however, enough for your to gas up the RV, put the dredge in the trailer, and drive 2500 miles and burn 250 gallons on fuel @ $2.32 a gallon national average (I wish I paid national average, I paid $3.15/g last time I filled up), pay the KoA fee's and run some dirt for a week, or until the wife gets tired of sitting at the campground alone and wants to go into town for the day or do something else. But at the end of the week, you ran some dirt, have some gold in your pocket and subsidised your little vacation, and had a good time.

To me, that's recreational mining.

And it's always going to be recreational. Simply because you don't have enough river on your claim to mine more than casually, and the ground you have access too is ONLY profitable when you can run a dredge, so the rest of the acreage on your claim is either worthless overburden, or the pay is buried so deep that the costs to recover 1g/y ground don't make sense. Combined with other fee's/reclamation/etc it's not profitable. And we all know it's not profitable because if it was EASY to run 1g/y dirt, more people would be full-time small scale miners.

 

[spaghettigold]

if i where allowed to work freely,without regs ,i built some waterwheels and buy some solarpanels, electric winch etc. .I dredge either with gravity 12 inch dredge or electric six inch dredge and make a living with a gram per yard. Keep the running cost low.

 

[Goldwasher]

To illustrate how agencies don't help users i brought up some facts at the waterboard work shop.

in 1970 Ca. issued 2,329,683 fishing lic. for recreation. resident,non-res and ocean stamp combined.

A resident was $ 3.00 yes 3 as in THREE. a non resident was $10

total revenue generated a total sport fishing revenue of $10,164,718 5,815,566 million lics. sold

the states population was barely 19 million people.

now we have almost double the population.

2016 a lic. for a resident $43.50 non-resident $117.25

2.5 million sport fishing lics. sold.........half as many

to generate $65 million dollars....and the Fish and game budget hasn't gone down over the years.

trust me the fishing hasn't gotten "better"

Please do not help the state scheme against us they are to good at it already

I'm not even gonna get into hunting , lead ban B.S. etc.

 

[Goldwasher]

still don't understand why questioning why someone would stake a claim is perceived as not respecting said claim. Or somehow "crying" about not having ground to work.

So if a recreational miner gets more gold then a so called professional working a claim. who is the real winner?





Didn't you just lose a dig spot because of a ranger? Research adds locations claims secure them when needed.
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thats why I say he who has it has it, and the questioning of it is pointless. Any "changes" made are not going to help anyone. if someone wants to join a club so be it. I say be the better member.

Gerry(asmbandits) has a decent claim. Should he give it up because life makes him busy?

 

[Goldfleks]

You do realize you basically came up with a way to shut you out.

Yeah I know my idea would close the door to me doing any dredging. I'm ok with that. I'll never be a full time miner. I'll probably never own a dredge, and EFSG will NEVER hear the sounds of a motor again, even if they relax the dredge laws.

Again I'm ok with that, (me not dredging). I'm not a miner, I'm a recreational prospector.

Just throwing things out there while another season passes where guys like you with active river claims are still left high and dry. It's been nearly 10 years of hoping that things will go back to the way they were. Realistically, unless compromises happen, or technology changes, it's probably going to be another 10.

 

[Goldwasher]

Yeah I know my idea would close the door to me doing any dredging. I'm ok with that. I'll never be a full time miner. I'll probably never own a dredge, and EFSG will NEVER hear the sounds of a motor again, even if they relax the dredge laws.

Again I'm ok with that, (me not dredging). I'm not a miner, I'm a recreational prospector.

Just throwing things out there while another season passes where guys like you with active river claims are still left high and dry. It's been nearly 10 years of hoping that things will go back to the way they were. Realistically, unless compromises happen, or technology changes, it's probably going to be another 10.

Because your ok with it .......

I don't have a river claim. I have a foothill deposit. with seasonal water. I am in no way shut out or High and dry. I don't need a dredge. I can only really run a three inch. effectively its shallow water. Maybe a 4"

See the thing is your trying to change everything based on "dredging"...just like sb 637 is an attempt to turn dredging into "everything"

My work changes with the season that's how you keep the gold coming out of the ground.

You most certainly do not need a dredge to profit. Or be a serious miner.

 

[Goldwasher]

if we had more support from people like you and less bending over we would be in the water still.

 

[Goldwasher]

Can't dig today I have to help someone get their '70 beetle back on the road. So, it's coveralls today.......Barry do we hate coveralls yet

Rain this week coming new tnet friend coming up. Gonna let him have the rare claim visit. Because I can. If he ever wants his own I'll show him how. For free!


You guys should back off on each others doins' out in the digs. Believe me 90% of the people you meet deserve what they are doing and what they have and deserve to keep at it. We surely need a different kind of support.

I don't like the off shooting I see from the usual suspects so, i break their balls...I.E screw the Mariposa Mining District!!

The whole recreational thing is getting old.......Oh well. Gotta go get greasy....marinate I'll check in tonight.

 

[spaghettigold]

fleks,ever tryed to get in touch with claimowners.
With humans you can still work out things,with agencies not so much.

 

[Clay Diggins]

if we had more support from people like you and less bending over we would be in the water still.

BINGO!!

Heavy Pans

 

[Clay Diggins]

Can't dig today I have to help someone get their '70 beetle back on the road. So, it's coveralls today.......Barry do we hate coveralls yet

I had two vehicles take a crip this week. Unfortunately it's been mid 90's this week so I'm working naked and greasy. You don't want to see that so just imagine coverALLs.

Last of the parts should be in today so maybe I'll make it to the outing.

Heavy Pans

 

[Goldfleks]

if we had more support from people like you and less bending over we would be in the water still.

You're absolutely right, if miners had the support of the general population, dredging probably wouldn't have been banned in the first place. But unlike other activities, mining is by its nature selfish. And that's the rub and why it's difficult to garner support from the average person.

I'll use your fishing example.

I buy a fishing rod and reel, pay my license fee, and I can go nearly anywhere during fishing season and cast my line and harvest the fish I catch as long as they meet all the regulations/size/species/etc. So If I decide to go fishing today, I can drive out to ANY public river in CA, or Ocean/Pier/Lake/Resevoir/Whatever and go fishing. If I bump into anyone else fishing, I get some additional company, maybe some friendly competition.

Now, lets compare that to mining.

I'm a greenie, I'm up in gold country on vacation, I get the itch to go pan for gold. I buy a Garrett pan, a hand shovel, maybe a hat from the local mining supplies store. I hike out to a seasonal river in Sailor Flat, CA, hike in. I find Goldwasher gorilla mining into his sluice getting the gold. You see the pan in my hand and quickly inform me that I'm on a Federal Mining Claim and that I'm not allowed to prospect on this land. Or that land or that land. But if I want to go to mylandmatters.com I can see areas around that are not under claim and I can go there.

Or maybe you're in a good mood that day and not suspicious at all of how someone found your claim wherever it is, and you offer a friendly panning lesson and let me pan your tailings and keep whatever I find.

And sure this is where Clubs like AMRA come in. You can tell the greenies who come into your shops that I can pay AMRA $200 and go panning on any of their claims (if any are even around). Or maybe direct me to one of the few public area's that are not allowed to be claimed and I can go poke around in the dirt there. Maybe there is another club in the area and for $100 I can go poke around on their clubs claims. But either way it comes across as very restrictive and regulated and how I need to be very careful about where I'm planning to pan so I'm not breaking any Federal Mining Laws. But have fun and I hope you find some gold!

Either way, I'm probably just going to go fishing instead.

Maybe it's just the experience I've gotten used to here in So Cal. My experience mining is much more similar to public fishing, because we have an entire river basin of land that's not open to claim that EVERYONE can enjoy. The biggest thing I have to worry about when I want to go mining, is am I getting up early enough to be the first person in the hole I want to dig in that day. And even then if it's taken, I just pick another spot or go prospecting for a location to plan to dig another day. And we have a pretty solid community of people on the EFSG who get out of the city and enjoy prospecting. Somewhat similar to what Kevin has up in Colorado with the facebook and the group meetups. And none of us have to pay $2500 to be apart of it.

 

[Goldfleks]

fleks,ever tryed to get in touch with claimowners.
With humans you can still work out things,with agencies not so much.

Where I'm at, I don't have to. The best river to sluice on isn't under and claim. And all the humans who mine on it are pretty friendly with everyone, minus a few territorial individuals who haven't come off the mountain in a very long time. But even those guys warm up to you after a while as long as your not digging in their hole lol.