Help me out with Sumter National Forest regulations

[SlateBelter]

I’m looking into the Sumter National Forest management plan, there is a provision relating to gold panning, but it’s unclear to me what is allowed. Looking at old threads in this forum it seems like contacting the Long Cane district office and talking to those folks is the way to get a permit and explanation of what is allowed. I did call them, and the woman who answered simply said “No, gold panning isn’t allowed.” She didn’t have a place for me to go see a regulations stating that, and I can’t find it anywhere online, so I’m kind of stumped. Anyone have more recent information on this?

 

[SlateBelter]

Time for a mini update.

I received a call back from the Forest Supervisor’s office front desk lady. She reiterated that gold panning is prohibited, but at a ranger’s discretion they pay issue permits. Thus the fact that the Andrew Pickens district will issue a permit, but not the Long Cane district. I asked why the closure is in effect, and she told me (paraphrase) “my understanding is that there has not been a recent environment assessment on the forest, so they have temporarily prohibited panning until that can be done.”

I then read her the Forest Order as well as 36 CFR 261.53(c) and asked how a lack of environmental assessment lined up with that. She said “I’m new here, so honestly I don’t know how to interpret that. I’ll have to find somebody who can.”

At her request, I sent her an email outlining the question in detail with the citations I provided so she can forward it to somebody on up the food chain.

 

[Assembler]

With all due respect, what on earth does that have to do with the topic of this thread?

Ask yourself is there any land lots that are not part of the Forest that you can do your activities on to start with?
Ask yourself what rules need to be complied with when entering the Forest if there is no business at hand?
Ask yourself how solid of an answer with clear definitions in writing have you received so far?

 

[Assembler]

Time for a mini update.

I received a call back from the Forest Supervisor’s office front desk lady. She reiterated that gold panning is prohibited, but at a ranger’s discretion they pay issue permits. Thus the fact that the Andrew Pickens district will issue a permit, but not the Long Cane district. I asked why the closure is in effect, and she told me (paraphrase) “my understanding is that there has not been a recent environment assessment on the forest, so they have temporarily prohibited panning until that can be done.”

I then read her the Forest Order as well as 36 CFR 261.53(c) and asked how a lack of environmental assessment lined up with that. She said “I’m new here, so honestly I don’t know how to interpret that. I’ll have to find somebody who can.”

At her request, I sent her an email outlining the question in detail with the citations I provided so she can forward it to somebody on up the food chain.

Will the 'Permit for panning' be effective for the same time frame of camping (12 - 14 days)?
The permits are discretionary within a given FS District.

 

[Assembler]

I’m looking into the Sumter National Forest management plan, there is a provision relating to gold panning, but it’s unclear to me what is allowed. Looking at old threads in this forum it seems like contacting the Long Cane district office and talking to those folks is the way to get a permit and explanation of what is allowed. I did call them, and the woman who answered simply said “No, gold panning isn’t allowed.” She didn’t have a place for me to go see a regulations stating that, and I can’t find it anywhere online, so I’m kind of stumped. Anyone have more recent information on this?

The permitting procedures are discretionary within each FS District.

 

[SlateBelter]

The permitting procedures are discretionary within each FS District.

As mentioned before, I am not an expert. Your statement is correct, however a district cannot act against the Forest Land and Resource Management Plan. That plan says “Gold panning and other related activities are only authorized where they do not adversely affect steam channel stability, substrate, aquatic species, or their habitats.” This gives them the opportunity to say “no” to panning in most locations, however my understanding is that they must have evidence that panning (or any recreational activity) is causing adverse effects in a specific area to ban it in that area. If they have proof of all streams in the long cane ranger district being negatively impacted by gold panning, then I’m out of luck.

This is where the Forest Order comes in. Such an order can prohibit an activity for a set period of time, regardless of the forest management plan. However, it must also have a justification. As the order currently stands they cite 36 CFR 261.53(c), but at request they have to disclose the evidence that makes it applicable. I’m asking for that evidence.

 

[Assembler]

As mentioned before, I am not an expert. Your statement is correct, however a district cannot act against the Forest Land and Resource Management Plan. That plan says “Gold panning and other related activities are only authorized where they do not adversely affect steam channel stability, substrate, aquatic species, or their habitats.” This gives them the opportunity to say “no” to panning in most locations, however my understanding is that they must have evidence that panning (or any recreational activity) is causing adverse effects in a specific area to ban it in that area. If they have proof of all streams in the long cane ranger district being negatively impacted by gold panning, then I’m out of luck.

This is where the Forest Order comes in. Such an order can prohibit an activity for a set period of time, regardless of the forest management plan. However, it must also have a justification. As the order currently stands they cite 36 CFR 261.53(c), but at request they have to disclose the evidence that makes it applicable. I’m asking for that evidence.

With funding issues, it is up to each FS District if resources will be made available for the permit process or other personal functions or duties. This also covers the timely studies being accomplished.
I will add here if the study is not completed how are you going to get the final results / evidence you ask for??

 

[Assembler]

As a useful exercise ask if all or some of the Chief, Regional Foresters, Experiment Station Directors, Forest Supervisors, or District Rangers, need to be noticed if a specific exemption can be made in writing about water panning in specific stream or a number of streams?

The permit needs to specifically authorizing the prohibited act in a given stream or a number of streams.

 

[SlateBelter]

Nobody asked for it, but here is an update.

I was redirected to the special uses program manager who is very friendly and gave me a call. Based on our conversation, I don’t think had read the order closely. Unsurprisingly he defending the closure, saying that the Forest Supervisor has the prerogative to close parts of the forest to protect resources. After I pressed him a bit, he admitted that he had looked for the evidence supporting the closure, but had not found it. He said that several consecutive orders had prohibited gold panning, for at least 7 years, and all had been approved by the regional office for legal counsel, but that finding the evidence supporting the original closure order is difficult because there is no digital archive of closure orders.

I mentioned that the Andrew Pickens Ranger district still issues permits and he said “That’s a problem” and “We’ve been trying to stop him”.

His recommendation was that I file a FOIA request to get all the documentation relating to closure of gold panning in the Sumter National Forest, since he isn’t sure that he necessarily has the records in his office.

Overall, the conversation was as expected, maybe better. The guy seems like he cares, and said to feel free to call him back for updates if I don’t hear from him first. The situation still bothers me. Basically for almost a decade they’ve been prohibiting a low impact recreational activity and nobody knows why. Not surprising, I guess. I’m going to follow through of the FOIA and see what we get. It’ll probably be a long time before the next update, unless the helpful man calls me back sooner.

 

[Assembler]

Nobody asked for it, but here is an update.

I was redirected to the special uses program manager who is very friendly and gave me a call. Based on our conversation, I don’t think had read the order closely. Unsurprisingly he defending the closure, saying that the Forest Supervisor has the prerogative to close parts of the forest to protect resources. After I pressed him a bit, he admitted that he had looked for the evidence supporting the closure, but had not found it. He said that several consecutive orders had prohibited gold panning, for at least 7 years, and all had been approved by the regional office for legal counsel, but that finding the evidence supporting the original closure order is difficult because there is no digital archive of closure orders.

I mentioned that the Andrew Pickens Ranger district still issues permits and he said “That’s a problem” and “We’ve been trying to stop him”.

His recommendation was that I file a FOIA request to get all the documentation relating to closure of gold panning in the Sumter National Forest, since he isn’t sure that he necessarily has the records in his office.

Overall, the conversation was as expected, maybe better. The guy seems like he cares, and said to feel free to call him back for updates if I don’t hear from him first. The situation still bothers me. Basically for almost a decade they’ve been prohibiting a low impact recreational activity and nobody knows why. Not surprising, I guess. I’m going to follow through of the FOIA and see what we get. It’ll probably be a long time before the next update, unless the helpful man calls me back sooner.

This is just the beginning of the exercise. Going up the chain is also needed.

 

[SlateBelter]

This is just the beginning of the exercise. Going up the chain is also needed.

I’ve thought about it a bit and I’ve come up with the course of action outlined below.

1. Email Region 8 FOIA help desk outlining the records that the FM&S NF can’t find and tell them that I’d like their help locating those records without going through the FOIA paperwork.

2. Email the FM&S NF Forest Supervisor himself and inform him that since his staff cannot locate the justifying evidence for the Forest-Wide Closure Order, I’ve asked the regional FOIA folks to help find the info.

I doubt the FOIA folks will play ball outside their normal procedure, but maybe, just maybe, that will get the forest supervisor’s attention and he will push his office to look into it rather than deal with FOIA. I still can’t imagine that they actually have the evidence to justify invoking 36 CFR 261.53c across the entire forest, so maybe if he gives it a bit of thought he’ll recognize that. Again, it feels like these folks, including JaSal, the forest supervisor that signed the order, didn’t really think through the sweeping nature of what they wrote. Based on what they’ve told me so far, maybe they didn’t write it, just copied and pasted from passed years. We can’t let that slide without a little pushback.

 

[SlateBelter]

The circus continues.

I sent the above emails, however it turns out that as of last June FM&S NF has a new forest supervisor. No official announcement of that, and the helpful guy I spoke with last week didn’t correct me when I referred to the old supervisor by name. Very odd considering he reports to the forest supervisor directly and therefore knows who he is. I don’t think the previous supervisor even works for USDA anymore because his email address is now defunct. Maybe the new guy will be amenable to providing the case file.

 

[Assembler]

The circus continues.

I sent the above emails, however it turns out that as of last June FM&S NF has a new forest supervisor. No official announcement of that, and the helpful guy I spoke with last week didn’t correct me when I referred to the old supervisor by name. Very odd considering he reports to the forest supervisor directly and therefore knows who he is. I don’t think the previous supervisor even works for USDA anymore because his email address is now defunct. Maybe the new guy will be amenable to providing the case file.

Does each NFS District have a directory record of each officer for the current year with addresses?

 

[SlateBelter]

Does each NFS District have a directory record of each officer for the current year with addresses?

Nope. I wish. The only accurate indication online for the current supervisor is his LinkedIn. I discovered the change because my emails were bouncing and so I called the front desk and asked what was going on.

 

[Assembler]

Nope. I wish. The only accurate indication online for the current supervisor is his LinkedIn. I discovered the change because my emails were bouncing and so I called the front desk and asked what was going on.

The government has records of the different Officers for each Calander year.

 

[SlateBelter]

The government has records of the different Officers for each Calander year.

If you knew this why did you ask me before? Lol I’d love a link if you have it.

 

[Assembler]

If you knew this why did you ask me before? Lol I’d love a link if you have it.

The District Office should be able to help you get right into the directory / link.

 

[Assembler]

One can write a letter to the known Officers about who to contact with current address of all needed Officers for going up the chain.

 

[jesse29841]

If you knew this why did you ask me before? Lol I’d love a link if you have it.

Do you have any updates for this? I live in the Augusta area and have wanted to go on forest creeks for awhile. Thanks for asking these questions!

 

[SlateBelter]

Do you have any updates for this? I live in the Augusta area and have wanted to go on forest creeks for awhile. Thanks for asking these questions!

I have not heard from the Forest Supervisor. I will email him on Thursday (2 weeks since I sent the most recent email) and ask for confirmation that he received my first email. I think they may have realized the pickle they are in. If I still don’t get a response, I’ll ask my congress(wo)man to get involved.

Edit: Received a call back. My email was received and they are working on it but “there is an issue locating some of the records.”

Edit August 5: Went ahead and made my official FOIA request. It is my belief now that the requisite records do not exist. The only way to make USFS admit that in writing is an official FOIA.

 

[russau]

Time for a mini update.

I received a call back from the Forest Supervisor’s office front desk lady. She reiterated that gold panning is prohibited, but at a ranger’s discretion they pay issue permits. Thus the fact that the Andrew Pickens district will issue a permit, but not the Long Cane district. I asked why the closure is in effect, and she told me (paraphrase) “my understanding is that there has not been a recent environment assessment on the forest, so they have temporarily prohibited panning until that can be done.”

I then read her the Forest Order as well as 36 CFR 261.53(c) and asked how a lack of environmental assessment lined up with that. She said “I’m new here, so honestly I don’t know how to interpret that. I’ll have to find somebody who can.”

At her request, I sent her an email outlining the question in detail with the citations I provided so she can forward it to somebody on up the food chain.

Actually she jst passed the buck to someone else !