Holmes "Missing" directions

[Cubfan64]

Re: Holmes' "Missing" directions

Travis,

"But i feel, if you want the monkey to dance, you have to throw him a banana once in awhile. LOL"

Deleting posts that you felt were important enough to submit in the first place, brings back bad memories for a few of the people posting here. We felt they deserved our consideration and responses. In some cases we have spent some time researching our answers. Once you pull them, I feel that my time has been wasted. A reply floating out there, without a question, is less than helpful for many people.

Hopefully you will put that practice behind you.

Take care,

Joe

Joe's got a good point here Travis, so take our comments in the light they are intended. There have been MANY times I've done a search here and on other forums to remind myself of a discussion that took place at one time and eventually realized the original poster had either deleted his posts, or gone back and edited them in such a way as to completely change the conversation. It makes it worthless sometimes to just read my replies and try to figure out where the conversation is going and eventually as Joe mentioned, there's a part of you that feels like you wasted a bunch of time.

I never pay much attention to the number of "reads" on a thread either - there's WAY TOO MANY lurkers out there who rarely or never post and would rather just read the stories and watch for information that might fit what they're "into."

In general, there's 4 main forums I frequent/used to frequent over the last 5-6 years. Of those 4, 1 is now no longer in existence, another is pretty much down to a handful of semi-regulars, TNet is active, but there is so much "craziness" in alot of the threads that it's tough to have serious conversations sometimes, and the last one has also slowed down in regards to new discussions.

I think the "old timers" have gotten sort of tired of just rehashing the same old stories over and over again.

That said, I probably won't stop reading and posting until I get to move close enough to the Superstitions that any free time I have will be spent out there.

Oh, and Joe - apology accepted - I honestly didn't mean to offend.

 

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[Dirty Dutchman]

Re: Holmes' "Missing" directions

Joe and Cub,

All of my posts arent lost, their just in my head. If there is anything in particular you would like to go over again, let me know.

I WILL NOT apologize for WHY i took my posts off of here as i think it was a valid reason. I just FELT like my posts were the "meat" of the thread, and I was the one being told/asked to "look it up" everytime someone didnt agree with my thoughts.

I have a day job as well, and i took the time to sift through all of that information before i would post, only to get a couple lines back as a response. I hope that clears up why i took them off. If it doesnt, i dont know what else to tell you.

If i dont see any questions come up on this thread about discussing my "lost" posts, i will assume no one wants to talk about it, and I will leave it alone.

Good luck,
Travis

 

[Blindbowman]

Re: Holmes' "Missing" directions

Joe and Cub,

All of my posts arent lost, their just in my head. If there is anything in particular you would like to go over again, let me know.

I WILL NOT apologize for WHY i took my posts off of here as i think it was a valid reason. I just FELT like my posts were the "meat" of the thread, and I was the one being told/asked to "look it up" everytime someone didnt agree with my thoughts.

I have a day job as well, and i took the time to sift through all of that information before i would post, only to get a couple lines back as a response. I hope that clears up why i took them off. If it doesnt, i dont know what else to tell you.

If i dont see any questions come up on this thread about discussing my "lost" posts, i will assume no one wants to talk about it, and I will leave it alone.

Good luck,
Travis

no way...! people not agreeing with you on this site ..? ...lol

 

[wwjohnson]

Re: Holmes' "Missing" directions

Hello Travis,

Going back to one of your earlier posts you said most of the Holmes, Petrash, Thomas, Bark, directions lead you to basicly the same place. Ive found that to be true myself. And it really doesnt matter which way you go in the mountains either from the west south or north you can get there from any of those entrypoints. In my experence I tried following each set of directions and each one took me up into the same basic area of the mountains i made three seperate trips following 3 seperate directions and came to the same place in the end. I was told and read there was a place near by where gold was broke down in a camp to go back to Mexico. I thouht i found that camp and looked for small pieces of quartz rock with gold because I had read you might still find some there. I didnt find any my first trip but went back a second time to look. While i was there i met a man who told me I was looking in the wrong place and showed me a flat spot near by that was supposed to be the right place. We looked togeteher for a while but found nothing but at least i felt i was now on the right place. I came back again in the spring and for a third time serched the flat camp for small pieces of gold. I used a trench shovel to dig around some big prikly paer cactus growing on the sight and on the second or third day there i found a little piece of white quartz about the size of a nickel and on one side was a tiny string of gold and some black metal next to the gold. the quartz was white with a sort of grayish tinge to it. I went back several more times but havent found any more pieces, yet.

This piece of quartz couldnt of been washed there as placer because the place is on high ground and no streams nearby. It looks like a good camp sight which i think it must of been.

This doesnt mean its from the dutchman mine because theres a lot of mine and old holes dug all over in the area. Where this piece of quartz come from is anybodys guess. i don't know if my following the directions into the area was luck or not but i tried to do what you said and not pick out a place in the mountains and have a set of directs take me there. I followed the directions and let them lead me where they were going and sea where i ended up. I would of never found the right camp if not for the man I talked to. finding the little piece of quartz with gold in it was more than I ever thought id ever find on any of my trips.

Will Johnson
Apache Junction

 

[Cubfan64]

Re: Holmes' "Missing" directions

Joe and Cub,

All of my posts arent lost, their just in my head. If there is anything in particular you would like to go over again, let me know.

I WILL NOT apologize for WHY i took my posts off of here as i think it was a valid reason. I just FELT like my posts were the "meat" of the thread, and I was the one being told/asked to "look it up" everytime someone didnt agree with my thoughts.

I have a day job as well, and i took the time to sift through all of that information before i would post, only to get a couple lines back as a response. I hope that clears up why i took them off. If it doesnt, i dont know what else to tell you.

If i dont see any questions come up on this thread about discussing my "lost" posts, i will assume no one wants to talk about it, and I will leave it alone.

Good luck,
Travis

Travis,

No problem - I understand your point and I didn't mean to imply you didn't spend a lot of time reading and researching stuff as well. Good luck to you as well

 

[cactusjumper]

Re: Holmes' "Missing" directions

Travis,

Don't want you to think we are just being.....burro's here.

In the past, there were two people, in particular, who's knowledge was highly respected and in some quarters still is. One I considered a friend for many years. The other was a man who was researching the history of the Stone Maps......like me.

He posted information from a book he was writing which included historical "facts", which is right up my alley. He asked for opinions and critiques on his work. When I asked (politely) for some of his historical sources for those facts, he and his friends came after me tooth and nail.

Eventually he left the site and would not speak/reply to me again. In the end, he deleted all of his posts......there were many. I couldn't understand the extreme reaction to such a simple (academic) request. "No" would have been the normal response to something you didn't want to answer.

My friend, who was accepted by many people as an expert authority on many subject relating to the history of the LDM, Arizona and the Apache Indians made some statements which I knew to be "historically" inaccurate. When I questioned those "facts", privately and on the Forum, he said goodbye and deleted all of his posts. We are talking years of posts here.

Once again I didn't understand such an extreme reaction. Eventually others did some research on my friend's, self publicized, personal history and sent it to me. It was overwhelming. He had made it all up and lived the fiction for nearly 20 years. He injected personal confirmation of stories that are also total fiction.

When I sent him the documented evidence, he did not reply. When I asked "Why?", In the Apache way I received silence. That spoke plenty.

Now when I see wholesale deletions of posts, I can't help but wonder if, like the two examples I just gave, if it's to remove the evidence of total B.S. Lies. You have stuck around and explained your reasoning. I accept that, but hope you understand why Paul and I had such strong opinions.

As for my "friend", I no longer want to know why. What I would like, is an apology for the personal deceit the public ridicule and anger he showed when I questioned his "made up facts".

No offense meant to you, as you seem a stand-up guy. As you may have sensed, this post is as much for my "friend" as it is for you, actually more so.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Dirty Dutchman]

Re: Holmes' "Missing" directions

Hello,

I have never, or will i ever, post bullsh@t claims. I have always posted THEORYS or OPINIONS and i feel that is all I've done. I even state that several times throughout my paragraphs. I have told you the reason i took the posts off, and that's all i can do at this point. I would rather move on and discuss other theories that people may have, as well as some more of my own.

Since Joe and my new friend Jerry (javaone who i met at Clay Worsts speaking engagement) are into the Stone Maps, i will tell you about my OPINION on those. I wasn't going to mention them before, as they didn't relate to my original topic, but since that has lead us to talking about the "directions" i think it pertains now.

My first book was "The Sterling Legend" which puts a lot of emphasis on the Stone Maps, in my opinion. I have since discarded them, and turned to only studying the Lost Dutchman. I will try to explain why I think they have merit though.

When i followed the Stone Maps, they came out to an area where i believe you are supposed to "stop". I then stumbled onto the "Latin Heart" and made myself one out of paper, with all of the writings translated to English. On one of our trips, we went to where i thought the Maps stop. When i turned the Heart a certain way, a ton of things started to "match up" to the Latin Heart. For example, we saw "water falling over Gold". In the late afternoon from our vantage point, we looked at Roosevelt Lake. It sure looked like gold "glimmering" that day. There are several other things that matched up, but i only want to share one, because it pertains to the Lost Dutchman, in my opinion. (In my opinion, this map doesn't "stop" at the Lost Dutchman, but its close)

The part that intrigued me was, the "cavern of Gold" part of the Latin Heart. Not a "mine", but "cavern of Gold". Here are my reasons.
Latin Heart says- "CAVERN of Gold"
Sims Ely says- "The mine was a volcanic VENT"
Peck says- "The Indians always spoke of a CAVE, not a mine, a CAVE"

Does anyone else see a pattern here? If not, that's OK, these are just my RAMBLINGS.
CAVERN
VENT
CAVE

Not a "mine" in the traditional sense? Maybe.

Maybe the Stones are a "hoax"? Maybe not. Too many things matched up when we were there. And keep in mind, I DONT CARE ABOUT THE STONES. I just think they COULD be related. I also don't believe i need them to find the Lost Dutchman, they just ADD to my own theory.

Here is something else about the Stones that i believe relates to the Lost Dutchman. After studying more about the whole "large land grant" part. I found out it was actually called a "church grant". Could that be why it might have a Priest on one of the Stones? Maybe, maybe not.
Here is the most interesting part for me. One of the "clues" related to the Lost Dutchman says "There is a symbol near the mine that contains a Triangle, Circle, and a Crescent". In my opinion, i have seen these symbols on the Stone maps. Does this mean that the Lost Dutchman is part of the Stone maps? Maybe, maybe not. Again, i don't care, but it is interesting.

Also, i have read many people believe the back of the other Heart says 1,000,000. Dollars? Paces?...Who knows? In my opinion, it could mean something entirely different. Its the SHAPE of the "zero's" that give it away for me. I think they are telling us HOW MANY tablets there are supposed to be. I think they are "shaped" like the tablets themselves. Maybe there are a couple missing? Again, i don't say any of this because i want to study OR DEBATE the Stone Maps themselves. I just found it interesting that some of these things COULD pertain to the Lost Dutchman Mine.

Another thing, maybe this is why people have found a lot of "worked out" mines in the area. If i were the Mexicans, and i had several mines in the area, and i had one "special" one that was extrememly rich that i refered to as the "cavern of Gold", I would save it for LAST. Why? The price of Gold goes up constantly, i would work all of the smaller mines FIRST, and save my "mother load" for LAST. Again, i may not be too smart, but i think this COULD explain why they might have not taken out as much Gold as they could have from what i believe is the Lost Dutchman. That or they really wanted ME to have it! LOL

Please remember, the Stones could be a way to contact a "lost civilization" or Jesus himself, i don't care. I just wanted to share some things that i believe COULD pertain to the Lost Dutchman.

See Jerry, maybe you actually ARE interested in the Lost Dutchman and didn't even know it! LOL

Will, congrats on your find. You are one of the few people that have proved..."there's gold in them there hills"!

thanks,
Travis

 

[Dirty Dutchman]

Re: Holmes' "Missing" directions

Correction, i should have written the "1,000,000 UNDERNEATH the Heart....

 

[Blindbowman]

Re: Holmes' "Missing" directions

Correction, i should have written the "1,000,000 UNDERNEATH the Heart....

NO

 

[dustcap]

Re: Holmes' "Missing" directions

Travis,

I am extremely busy this time of year as it is tax return time and I work for H&R Block full time.

When I get a few minutes, just before bedtime, I look in on the TN for the latest posts relating to the LDM. This is (almost) the only area I take time to explore while on line.

I can't tell you how sad I was to happen on to your thread at this late date and find answers to missing posts. As it has been mentioned already there have been a few posters that delete their own posts. I cannot understand their reasoning, but that's their choice.

Some of the posters have been put on ignore by some of our friends here but to me that eliminates the possibility to catch some word or hint that may put another piece of the puzzle on the table.

Sorry to have missed your deleted posts as I was too late in finding your thread.

I can't spend a lot of time on line but enjoy reading about those who post regularly such as Joe Ribaudo. I would consider him to be a friend although I have only met with him under one set of circumstances that being at the last few LDM Rendezvous.

The people you meet at that once a year gathering make up an interesting group. I wonder just how much information is being put on the table without the key facts being held very close to the chest. It is my guess that each person there is looking for that little piece of information that cements their own jumble of facts into what eventually becomes a theory.

I set aside an extra measure of time to read this thread before responding as there are offshoots and sidelines to explore along the way and did not want to miss anything.

Mr. Ribaudo’s reference on Dec 30th to Dr. Glover’s book found me pulling his book out of my library and rereading that section. There was a tiny reference in those pages that added conclusive evidence to a sub-theory or one more piece of my own puzzle that I've been formulating over the least ten years.

I accidentally took a photograph of a landmark that has been mentioned as one of the clues to where you enter the mountains. I say accidentally because at the time I did not see the landmark. It was only after I got back home and put the photos on my computer screen did I see it. Also, quite by accident, the timing was perfect. I did not take GPS coordinates at the time but the general area is close enough, and I know almost exactly where I was when I took that photo.

Sorry, but I don't feel ready to post that photo. The proof will be the acid test. Ore testing that is, and I have a ways to go before I can do that.

I would like to continue but time is my enemy and I must get some sleep so I don't make any mistakes on those tax returns I will be preparing in the morning.

Perhaps I can look in on this site again soon.

Thanks for joining and bringing new ideas to this part of the forum.

Looking forward to reading more of what you have to offer. I see you have gone offline since I started this response.

Later…

Ken ‘dustcap’ Chichester

 

[Oroblanco]

Re: Holmes' "Missing" directions

Hola compadres,
I am still catching up on some of the conversations that went by in the last four months, during which time my internet time was brief in the extreme. So this is fairly late as a reply, and very long so I beg your indulgence.
Cactusjumper wrote

Helen Corbin, who I have great respect for, put tremendous faith in a source that was less than truthful, as did I and many others. That has muddied
up the LDM waters for many years now, and will continue to lead people down false trails for many more years to come.

I would like to try to restore some of that faith in Helen for you amigo; all historians are at the mercy of their sources. When a source later proves to be unreliable, it is too late to correct one jot or tittle as the old saying goes for the books already published. <One of the reasons my own little book project keeps me re-checking things - you cannot make corrections later>

It is also almost inevitable that at least some portion of the masses of information in circulation around the Lost Dutchman legend that some untruth may find its way in with facts. Especially if a human source is the culprit, trusting someone to be truthful when they are not can result in both source and author becoming "stained" with the same ink.

Helen was well aware of these dangers and you can see it in her own words in the 'Bible' in her conclusion, pp 343-44 quote
"This particular title, my third book on the Superstitions, has for this author been a labor of love. Just as most of my peers have done, I've searched for the truth for many long years. Usually I don't express an opinion. Readers experience pure joy at trying to figure out the goal and the explanation of the material presented in a book. But, all authors have an opinion. I am no exception. In this case I have traveled this road before; however prior to this writing, I was unable to locate the exact truth. This fact caused me great consternation. "

Elsewhere in this same volume there are several statements which make it clear that Helen is to some degree merely presenting the evidence as it was given, such as "The Roberts family had their own version of Waltz's demise" and similar, not taking a position that one version is gospel over another, just presenting it.

All in all I find Helen Corbin to have been a most diligent researcher after the truth, I greatly value her books and one of my deepest regrets in life is that I did not find a way to make a trip to a Dutch hunter rendezvous sooner, maybe I could have even met her in person. I am convinced that Helen would not knowingly include a falsehood she knew positively was false.

Cactusjumper also wrote

Some were just people I thought were my friends, and they lied to me every time they spoke.

HAY now amigo, I have been told that I am a natural born liar, but not EVERY time I spoke to ya! I really am just turning 29 you know!
<IQ that is! heh heh>

All this said, I too believe that Holmes withheld some info that never got published anywhere, though it may be exactly what was mentioned (the three tanks) we can never really know.

Dustcap wrote

I can't spend a lot of time on line

We have some idea why amigo - cracking that gold out of the rock and sneaking it out of the Wilderness area without getting caught takes up a lot of time eh? I just hope you will save me a little specimen of that ore! <Hickory nut size would do>
Oroblanco

 

[Blindbowman]

Re: Holmes' "Missing" directions

Travis,

Don't want you to think we are just being.....burro's here.

In the past, there were two people, in particular, who's knowledge was highly respected and in some quarters still is. One I considered a friend for many years. The other was a man who was researching the history of the Stone Maps......like me.

He posted information from a book he was writing which included historical "facts", which is right up my alley. He asked for opinions and critiques on his work. When I asked (politely) for some of his historical sources for those facts, he and his friends came after me tooth and nail.

Eventually he left the site and would not speak/reply to me again. In the end, he deleted all of his posts......there were many. I couldn't understand the extreme reaction to such a simple (academic) request. "No" would have been the normal response to something you didn't want to answer.

My friend, who was accepted by many people as an expert authority on many subject relating to the history of the LDM, Arizona and the Apache Indians made some statements which I knew to be "historically" inaccurate. When I questioned those "facts", privately and on the Forum, he said goodbye and deleted all of his posts. We are talking years of posts here.

Once again I didn't understand such an extreme reaction. Eventually others did some research on my friend's, self publicized, personal history and sent it to me. It was overwhelming. He had made it all up and lived the fiction for nearly 20 years. He injected personal confirmation of stories that are also total fiction.

When I sent him the documented evidence, he did not reply. When I asked "Why?", In the Apache way I received silence. That spoke plenty.

Now when I see wholesale deletions of posts, I can't help but wonder if, like the two examples I just gave, if it's to remove the evidence of total B.S. Lies. You have stuck around and explained your reasoning. I accept that, but hope you understand why Paul and I had such strong opinions.

As for my "friend", I no longer want to know why. What I would like, is an apology for the personal deceit the public ridicule and anger he showed when I questioned his "made up facts".

No offense meant to you, as you seem a stand-up guy. As you may have sensed, this post is as much for my "friend" as it is for you, actually more so.

Take care,

Joe

you have friends .. i am shocked !

 

[Dirty Dutchman]

Re: Holmes' "Missing" directions

Dustcap,

There were some disagreements that caused me to take my posts off of that thread. I did however put the "meat" of that thread over on my post about "Waltz' confession to Holmes". It's all opinion of course but it does give most of my theories on the Holmes manuscript if youre interested.

So if you get a chance, read that whole post and you will see where i stand on pretty much all of the "Holmes part".

Take care,
Travis

 

[cactusjumper]

Re: Holmes' "Missing" directions

Roy,

"I would like to try to restore some of that faith in Helen for you amigo; all historians are at the mercy of their sources."

I have complete faith in Helen Corbin. Nothing to restore. Everything she put in her books, I believe, she had complete faith in its truthfulness.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Blindbowman]

Re: Holmes' "Missing" directions

if i am correct about the will holmes never had manuscript ..

it makes a lot of logic when you take a good look at the manuscript with the dick holmes statements added .. i can pick them right out .. holmes waited till waltz could not defind him self . and then steped in . right when holmes was on his death bed .. good timeing .. to good a timeing if you ask me .. and if waltz had a will and it was in the box under the bed .. who took it .. i did not here that name .. yes i am correct dick the dick holmes ...

i dont beleive dick holmes wrote anything .. if he did it was not that manuscript ,he only wrote a few words here and there ..

this is all sad .. this sweet old man killed a few gate jumpers and got a gold mine the american way .. he was liveing the american dream . get rich and chace hot julia chicks . next thing you know here comes a Dick to mis up the american dream .. i think dick was lucky waltz did not have a gun on the bed beside him , dick would have left before waltz did ...lol

this would a kick a** movie

sounds like those old westerns before the reruns ther kishna could play the jesuits , i know its a strech but it would get themm out of the air port for a few weeks ,...lol

lady GaGa for julia and bill clinton for the dick .. ...lol i am not going to tell you why .. i will get banded for sure ...lol

 

[Blindbowman]

Re: Holmes' "Missing" directions

Roy,

"I would like to try to restore some of that faith in Helen for you amigo; all historians are at the mercy of their sources."

I have complete faith in Helen Corbin. Nothing to restore. Everything she put in her books, I believe, she had complete faith in its truthfulness.

Take care,

Joe

like that would sell in todays market ...lol but thats right we th will buy almost anything that leeds no where .... dose not matter where we end up out there ,. as long as it ends up out in the supers ...lol

i think the mt lions must have eat a few people that read those books and they ended up out there too ...lol

 

[Oroblanco]

Re: Holmes' "Missing" directions

Blindbowman wrote

i dont beleive dick holmes wrote anything

I believe the Holmes manuscript is generally attributed to Brownie, not Dick; Brownie denied having authored it however. Dr Glover presents a fair case that Brownie did write it. Like so many sources on the Dutchman in circulation, we are left with more questions than answers.

There are several interesting 'tidbits' in the Holmes manuscript that are easy to miss and may be important. One is a key landmark that has been debated since the days when Waltz was alive and others were trying to trail him. If the Holmes manuscript has this landmark identified correctly, the mine is definitely in the Superstitions. Actions speak louder than words as our amigo Gollum is fond of pointing out, and we know that Holmes did not run to First Water the moment Waltz was cold - he went to Hidden Water. Also remember that Holmes searched all over the Superstitions from Superstition mountain to Picket Post! Does that seem like the actions of a man who had a set of specific directions to find the mine, or like someone who really didn't have a good idea where to look in your opinion? Thank you in advance;

Blindbowman also wrote

this would a kick a** movie

Try "Lust for Gold" with Glenn Ford; the movie makers sought out Barry Storm as an adviser, and you will find much the same version of the Holmes manuscript in Storm's first book 'The Lost Dutchman'. It makes a good movie, however short on fact.

Oroblanco

 

[cactusjumper]

Re: Holmes' "Missing" directions

Roy,

Actually I have been told that Brownie denied writing the manuscript right up to the time he was dying. He also told his best friend, Clay Worst that he didn't write it.

That seems pretty convincing to me. I'm pretty confident in my source, so you can take that information for what it's worth. I think you probably have the email address for das source. He was also my source for the taped interview of Brownie.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

Re: Holmes' "Missing" directions

Roy,

Actually I have been told that Brownie denied writing the manuscript right up to the time he was dying. He also told his best friend, Clay Worst that he didn't write it.

That seems pretty convincing to me. I'm pretty confident in my source, so you can take that information for what it's worth. I think you probably have the email address for das source. He was also my source for the taped interview of Brownie.

Take care,

Joe

It is not a major issue for me who really wrote the Holmes manuscript, it is a highly suspect source for LDM info in my opinion. If it truly is the correct directions, why then didn't Dick Holmes simply follow them himself? Instead, he ranged across the breadth of the Superstitions range, even visited Julia Thomas to try to learn more from her and never seemed to focus his search in any one area. To me, that appears more the actions of a man who had nothing more than the slightest of clues, casting about for anything that might help lead him to the mine and the cache. I have no way of knowing what ever Holmes really knew, so this is all speculation based on his actions and the manuscript itself.

That the directions in the Holmes manuscript may well be the correct ones but in a garbled form is another possibility, which can not be proven without the mine being found and then compared with those clues. Just a personal opinion of course.
Roy

 

[Dirty Dutchman]

Re: Holmes' "Missing" directions

Hello,

From Glovers "Part 2 The Holmes Manuscript"

In the Introduction it says:
"Interviews with Brownies family have revealed that not only did Brownie talk to them of the Manuscript and, not only does the family STILL HAVE Brownies copies of the Manuscript, they also remember Brownie walking around dictating PARTS of the manuscript to a typist at their kitchen table".

Joe pointed out in another post that the family may have said all of that because they were interested in any money that could have been made from it and that it may not be true. That very well could be true but, the part about the family still having Brownies copies makes it hard for me to believe that Brownie had nothing to do with it. If its pretty convincing that Clay, his friend, said he didnt write it, couldnt it be equally as convincing that his family said he did? (I dont know either way, just posing a question)

Then you can "throw in" the story from Barry Storm called "Bonanza of the Lost Dutchman", which has a few things matching the manuscript in my opinion.

Maybe Brownie "sold" the story to Storm at one time? Maybe Brownie had made a deal with Storm and COULDNT sell his account? Maybe he just didnt want to be associated with Storm for fear of ridicule? Maybe Brownies "helper" with the manuscript took too many "liberties" with the story and "took" some things from Storms story and thats why Brownie didnt want to associate with it?

Joe said he is friends with Glover. Maybe Glover has told Joe something thats not in his book that pertains to Brownies family knowing about the Manuscript?

Thanks,
Travis