How is AMRA Spending Your Donations?

[Terry Soloman]

WHY is the American Mining Rights Association in Papua New Guinea? Are they spending donations to be there? WTF?

​

 

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[Terry Soloman]

...How many thousands of dollars went in to making and editing these AMRA movies alone? Did you see the time charged for editing and producing these movies anywhere in the tax statement you care so much about? And could you have been here for us all, taking Shannon's place and doing a better job?...

You have me confused with another poster. I NEVER wrote ANYTHING about a tax statement. Reed, you are well known and respected in the gold mining community. I'm not asking you or anyone else to change your minds. I think AMRA, PLP, and MMAC are all wasting time and donations backing cases like Rinehardt's. I think they should be spending money on awareness OUTSIDE the mining community. If individuals want to help with court costs - Great! But Keene Engineering's lawyers should be donating their time to fighting in court.

Shannon Poe may be your hero, but he spends a lot of money trying to make more money. All these videos are the perfect example. They are aimed at membership and fund raising and NOBODY sees them except gold miners. What good does that do any of us?

Anyway, thanks for adding to the thread.

 

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[Goldwasher]

you ever think about the fact that most outside off small mining could give a crap...99% of the time when I tell non- prospectors that I have a mining claim the typical response is either "there's still gold?" or "you can still have a mining claim"
Getting people into prospecting in the first place is getting more people on our side giving them more info and up to speed of the situation after that has to be done.
But you are already set on the it's only (paraphrase) "a middle aged, bucket list, white, bearded dude hobby"
It's not hard to see that your mind is already made up. The Irony is that you are the one who did or does run a pay to play operation. And you tell someone else to slow their roll when you started this thread to bash AMRA. When it is proven to you how much more is going on and what Shannon and the board are actually doing you double down. You do not have any proof that he is doing what he is doing to make money for himself. If he is spending all this time doing it he does have the right to pay a salary through his non-profit it is not unlawful or even un-ethical it is standard practice.
It is amazing to me to see a few of you here bashing a guy who is doing things for others.
I do not support PLP anymore and never supported MMAC. Just because AMRA did means nothing a great majority of the membership did because they believed in the cause. We still don't have all the details as to what shady doins' have gone on with MMAC and PLP though it seems obvious that MMAC is the problem. You can bet money it won't sit well with prospectors and PLP's life will suffer accordingly.
Amra has a volunteer board and they have to vote on ASSOC. actions.
I talked with Shannon online last night about getting the water permit situation streamlined, I spent several hours on the phone with the State water board..directed to the Regional in Rancho Cordova. Call the state Norman Russel, he is the guy working on the permit program. I also spoke with the S.F A.C.O.E they differed me to the Sac. office no response yet. DFW Nimbus office has the "we're to busy call back in a few minutes message" so I called back about eight times I'll do it all over again today.
I will keep calling and calling and emailing until I get at least an application or waiver. I can tell that not many people are doing this. If ten prospectors a day did this I bet they would get on things a little quicker.
I'm doing this for free. Putting myself out there and believe me I don't like calling these people and mentioning that I want to find out how to legally do something I already have the right to do. I'm doing it so I can share the info with other prospectors and help guys like Shannon get that info out to other prospectors.
the way I see it is if a club claim gets approval it should be for the claim and then members can work without hassle. Once it happens for a club claim why not individual claims. I'm trying to make some sort of progress. I could just keep my mouth shut and let everyone else deal with it and be all smug about it like some here.
Funny how the "MAJORITY" do this as a bucket list thing and as soon as people show up that are taking it more serious they must be doing it to make money off of people and shouldn't share info and directive with each other.
We have to raise funds because were already fighting against our own tax money. Amra doesn't tout anything for the membership fee other than that they will fight for miners rights and want you to make your membership back off of their claims. They get people together that are more aware now and organized than they were before and the more that happens the stronger our side will be. That is not a bad thing.

Better than seeing Rick from WMA gripe because they don't have funds and openly state they need to locate more claims to sell them for funds(invalid) and they have the ceqa case coming and that one holds a bit of weight. I'm glad to see a group with a leader like Shannon doing something different than the bearded old dude's.

And this is not about standing in line to get a permit you don't need or recreational vs. commercial or what have you. The state is making it all one in the same. After what the A.C.O.E told me yesterday I know that they don't care if your a weekend warrior or working a claim several days a week for profit. Terms were mentioned. "back woods" "lack of enforcement" "just because people did it for years doesn't mean it was lawful"
We have been shown that federal preemption isn't going to stick in California. it doesn't mean it's time to give up or give in.
I do see that battling the State and agencies given "responsibility" is not going to work. It seems that groups need to take the bull by the horns and reach out to the Dept. heads and see if logical programs can be put in place. A way for prospectors to show they are aware of "potential" mitigations and ethical practices. We all know the environmental harm is next to zero. But, we are always using it after the fact. Reacting has gotten us no where.

 

[Terry Soloman]

you ever think about the fact that most outside off small mining could give a crap...99% of the time when I tell non- prospectors that I have a mining claim the typical response is either "there's still gold?" or "you can still have a mining claim"
Getting people into prospecting in the first place is getting more people on our side giving them more info and up to speed of the situation after that has to be done...

Goldwasher, you just made my point. When I donated to PLP, I believed they were going to have more of a public outreach. I was wrong. AMRA is headed down the same road. In my opinion, Shannon is "mining the miners." A small group of a couple thousand guys has NO political power - NONE. There is a very limited core base for Shannon to "organize."

Go back and READ the Rinehardt decision. He NEVER had a chance, and was CRUSHED in his appeal. We cannot win in a COURT OF LAW - right now. If we start winning in the COURT OF PUBLIC OPINION, then we'll have a fighting chance or preserving the rights of work-a-day guys and gals to locate, stake, and mine placer claims in the future.

Shannon keeps referring to "dozens of studies that prove dredging does not harm fish or their habitat," yet he always Fails to list them or give links to them that the public at large can investigate for themselves. Why hasn't ANYONE - including AMRA - put that list together and made it public on their websites? This is just ONE, simple thing these groups should be doing to reach a wider audience.

Yes, I ran a very successful "pay-to-play" gold prospecting school, and I did more to make the general public aware of placer gold mining - and the rules and regulations we face - than ANY of these groups over the decade I was in business. You can dislike me, and my opinions, but placer gold mining for the everyday man and woman is going the way of the Dodo, unless we stop mining ourselves, and start mining public awareness and opinion.

 

[Goldwasher]

Terry he has them all put together they were submitted to the senate committee. They were submitted during the previous dredge regulation committee's. They have been given to the state and DFW over and over. They don't care about the studies. They are reference in the public responses to the whenever they have the public response periods and people send them in. They want to stop small scale mining at this point to be right. They don't care if they are being factual. When we had to sit in the overflow room and there was 80 plus prospectors people representing them selves as professional miners and as business owners, when we were in the chamber finally and THE ONLY people pushing sb637 were Senator Allen Izzy, and Dr. Monahan at the pro bill table, when they were done speaking and Shannon and I forget the guys name but, he is also part of the combined San Bernadino cases.
When they were done at the tables in front of the committee. Two interns got up for the bill. The same ones that got up for to other bills one of them being about drinking fountains at public schools. then we all lined up and spoke AGAIST the bill all of us it took more than an hour...that is public appeal. the law doesn't say the WHOLE public has to agree. But yes when the person pushing the bill and the enviro group and it's paid scientist are out numbered more than 10 to one what is the point of senate hearings? Merely a formality on their part the small print if you will their "Due diligence"
If you think that we didn't try to get as many of us as possible, if you don't think we reach out to buddies at work and neighbors and strangers for that matter than I don't know what to tell you. I try to talk to as many people 'non prospectors" as I can
If you think that you do more by getting people to your digs and educating them and getting people to outings and trying to fill the ranks of prospectors with new prospectors isn't legit if a group like AMRA does it based on your opinion of how they operate well, so be it I guess.
In my experience people don't care unless it affects them. You can't make anti small scale mining laws affect people that are not small scale miners. The only way to get more of them is to make more of them. Most people that get involved in prospecting really really suck at it and it's hard to stick with. Clubs really help soften that learning curve, a very good thing especially ones that want to go beyond hobby level. Most of the guys who volunteer their time at events and outings and on the phone and researching info are those type. They are not labeling people by demographic they are trying to create a positive outcome for ANYONE that wants to prospect at ANY level.

You or Todd have yet to show anything that proves that Shannon or AMRA is fleecing unsuspecting members. In fact you are insulting all of the membership and basically calling them stupid and blind.

 

[Terry Soloman]

... You or Todd have yet to show anything that proves that Shannon or AMRA is fleecing unsuspecting members. In fact you are insulting all of the membership and basically calling them stupid and blind.

Wooh-wooh-WOOOOH! I'm NOT Todd, and I have NEVER said Mr. Poe was "fleecing unsuspecting members," EVER!

I have said that if you are OK with how your donations are spent then God Bless! I do think you are throwing your money away however. If you folks want to be mad at your situation and the state of California, great! But Stop putting words in MY mouth and calling me "the enemy." That is pure horse pucky.

Where is the list of dredging studies? Can someone PLEASE post them so I can email them to my Congressmen and Senators?

 

[Nitric]

I'm actually learning a lot in this thread...Whether it sticks or not? That's a different story!

There needs to be a better organized group on all rights. A "union"(?). We have so many groups working and doing great things. In a way? I think I might see what Terry is trying to say. Looking at it as a whole, and seeing what the miners are facing,or any other group with Government overreach, this needs to be a bigger "movement". With all Rights that are withering away not just in mining! Just like mentioned in the videos, they(gov) have endless resources to run people dry with. As an individual I'd have to bow down in some cases , because I wouldn't have the money to challenge it!! It shouldn't be like that either!!!!!!!!And as bad as it is today with the chipping away of Rights, all these groups need to unite in a bigger way. We are battling Bogus Science,statistics,propaganda, etc...And even "new teachings" (to keep it non political). It seems at least. Information is out there, and you can try to teach someone, but there is twice as much bogus information people can back their arguments with, or be mislead by their own "fact" checking.

Maybe there is such a group and I'm just not aware? Unless people start pulling together it's a lost battle, they have the unlimited resources that our Grandkids will owe for?

Not speaking against AMRA, Just speaking in general. From the looks of it, it's a positive group! And even bad publicity gets people researching and talking! Before this thread I didn't even know these groups existed.

 

[Goldwasher]

You said he is doing this to make money for himself

 

[Nitric]

Ohh...I will also say in the Video's Dizzy posted. I get a different impression of Shannon than the earlier videos. The guy appears to have it together as far as those videos go. I wish I had that kind of memory to recite some of that stuff, or even know and remember where it applies. Another thing too, he was able to take control, of the situation and the guys around that wanted to jump in and add their two cents, with what could have been added confusion. Just my thoughts from someone that really has nothing for or against the group. Looks positive enough! Just sucks that in any topic, your fighting one thing and the gov, or agency is working on 100 more.

 

[Goldwasher]

http://www.icmj.com/UserFiles/file/recent-news/Review-of-Available-Suction-Dredging-Studies.pdf

» Compilation of Published Findings on the Effects of Suction Dredging upon Water Quality

http://www.wvminers.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/dredging-environment.pdf

http://www.waterboards.ca.gov/water...docs/suctiondredge/comments/joseph_greene.pdf

 

[Goldwasher]

westernminingalliance.org/.../TURBIDITY_AND_THE_EFFECT_OF_SCALE_REDD

 

[Goldwasher]

can't get that link to copy

 

[Goldwasher]

Western Mining Alliance


If my laptop wasn't locked up I would copy a large file full of all my saved info I started compiling in '09.


now I have to prove this to Terry Solomon pretty silly

 

[Terry Soloman]

Terry, I respect your view. As an AMRA board member, I would disagree however. I have not received a dime from AMRA, yet have donated thousands in gold, dollars, and equipment to defending your rights. None of the board members have received any kind of compensation, including Shannon. I ask you to please prove your allegations or retract your claims.
We are supporting Brandon in his fight so that he has no out-of-pocket costs, as best we can, and so far have met his needs. We have represented several independent miners in cases where they have been denied access or had other issues with the Alphabet agencies.

I have NEVER said you or anybody else was getting paid to be part of AMRA, so I would like you to either back up, or retract YOUR claim. Either quote MY post, or apologize "BS"

 

[Terry Soloman]

You said he is doing this to make money for himself

Quote my post Goldwasher and back up this lie, or apologize.

 

[Terry Soloman]

http://www.icmj.com/UserFiles/file/recent-news/Review-of-Available-Suction-Dredging-Studies.pdf

» Compilation of Published Findings on the Effects of Suction Dredging upon Water Quality

http://www.wvminers.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/dredging-environment.pdf

http://www.waterboards.ca.gov/water...docs/suctiondredge/comments/joseph_greene.pdf

Sorry Goldwasher, These do not constitute a dozen studies. The first example doesn't help us in any way (for just a couple of points read pages 42 and 43), the second example cites several studies and papers that have been cherry picked for favorable data with negative data left out; the third example is just a joke; and the last is an OPINION piece by Joseph C. Greene, again citing studies and papers that can be cherry picked by either side.

Maybe it is time for us to stop regurgitating things we read on the interweb, and start trying to find the truth. I am. I want to keep my right to placer mine on the weekends. I am tired of poorly educated type "A" personalities "representing" me and small, recreational gold mining. You can't satisfy legislators and courts with opinion, and cherry picked studies. It may work for fund raising, but it won't work in court.

 

[Terry Soloman]

Western Mining Alliance
If my laptop wasn't locked up I would copy a large file full of all my saved info I started compiling in '09.
now I have to prove this to Terry Solomon pretty silly

Another opinion piece Goldwasher, and PLEASE, if you are going to insult me would you at least spell my name correctly?

 

[winners58]

They are not cherry picked studies if you look at this latest biological opinion they consider the same studies
NOAA Biological Opinion on Dredging & Highbanking 8/9/16
the issue is what the Fed's and now the states want is for us to ask for permission to mine.
that's what the fight is about, we shouldn't need to ask permission if we are only casual mining.
STOP ASKING FOR PERMISSION...

 

[Reed Lukens]

You have me confused with another poster. I NEVER wrote ANYTHING about a tax statement. Reed, you are well known and respected in the gold mining community. Shannon Poe may be your hero, but he spends a lot of money trying to make more money. All these videos are the perfect example. They are aimed at membership and fund raising and NOBODY sees them except gold miners. What good does that do any of us?

Anyway, thanks for adding to the thread.

Sorry Terry, my post ended up being a general post that included Victor's and everyone else's. One video I posted wasn't his and that was when he was speaking for us all at the Senate hearing, so he was seen by many and he did a great job.


But did it do any good? That's the question we all keep asking ourselves because as hard as we fought, the politician's still followed their own pocket books and took the pay-off... Did they even listen?¿? The politicians all heard it, but still did what they were told do by the people paying them off with no regard for the truth and facts that were presented. You know how it is and how it would have been had we all done nothing. The fact is, we are still a minority when compared to the environazi elitists. Shannon is in the spot light now like many of us have been in the past and he's doing just fine representing all of us regardless of the final outcome. We will always need a solid voice, even when being trampled under by the government... I'd rather go down fighting the best that I can until the end especially when they're the one's pushing their own agenda.

 

[jere64ca]

Was supporting the Reinhart Case a waste of time and money? I don't think so. The following is from WMA's August Newsletter. Long but well said!

WMA PRESIDENT COMMENTS

“It’s not whether you get knocked down; its whether you get back up.” Vince Lombardi

“It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points
out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of
deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs
to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is
marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives
valiantly; who errs and comes short again and again;
because there is not effort without error and
shortcomings; but who does actually strive to do the
deed; who knows the great enthusiasm, the great
devotion, who spends himself in a worthy cause, who at
the best knows in the end the triumph of high
achievement and who at the worst, if he fails, at least
he fails while daring greatly. So that his place shall
never be with those cold and timid souls who know
neither victory nor defeat.” Teddy Roosevelt

Rinehart lost OK. The forums and social networks are ablaze with
these discussions. Lots of chatter.
Raise your hand if you believe a California court was
going to rule for Rinehart. Anyone?
We needed to support the Rinehart case, and many of
you did. Thanks. We still need to support it, and the
Bohmker Case in Oregon, and our CEQA Case, and Keith
Walker’s case. It ain’t over. Not by a long shot. Sure we
lost – again.
Even in losing causes we need to fight. We are still a free
people as long as we believe we are a free people. Once
we accept the notion we’ve lost our freedom we’re
doomed.
If you want to make your shackles more comfortable then go
ahead and sit this fight out, because it’s a losing fight. That’s the
ugly truth, it’s a losing fight.
We use to run our articles with a closing of “Molon Labe.”
Which in Greek means “Come take them.”
It was the response of King Leonidas to the Persians in 432 BC at
the Battle of Thermopylae. A battle where every Greek died and
the Persians proceeded to burn Athens to the ground.
In every fight for freedom many lose some, some lose all. Do we
stop fighting and concede to the State?
What happened to our willingness to fight that given a loss we
turn on ourselves and start to point fingers at those in the ring?
Perhaps all our lawsuits are losing causes. Are you willing to just
go sit on the couch and remember the days when you could
own a mining claim and run a suction dredge for a little bit of
fun with the dream of one day making a living doing it?
We’re the people who built this country. We’re the people who
wrote into the Constitution the safeguards to protect ourselves
from the bullies we knew would eventually rise up to rip our
Constitution from us. Each California Assembly member
represents 489,000 people. Sierra County, California, has a
population of just over 3,000 people.
Who represents Sierra County? Apparently the representatives
from Southern California do because they’re the ones writing
the laws. No representative from Northern California is writing
these laws. They wouldn’t dare because that’s not the will of
the people, the sovereign people of Northern California.
Yes, the California Supreme Court ruled we have no right to
mine. Nor does any other citizen have a right to earn a living
apparently. The Supreme Court essentially said your right to
earn a living ends when the majority decides what you do
offends them.
We now have a government which is sold to the highest bidder.
I’ll stay in the fight. Maybe we’ll keep losing, but we’re the sand
in the machine which maybe slows the gears down just a bit.
Maybe we’re the only oneswho are exposing this racket.Maybe
this is just a lost cause, but can you think of another cause
which is so important as saving our democracy?

 

[Nitric]

Was supporting the Reinhart Case a waste of time and money? I don't think so. The following is from WMA's August Newsletter. Long but well said!

WMA PRESIDENT COMMENTS

“It’s not whether you get knocked down; its whether you get back up.” Vince Lombardi

“It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points
out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of
deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs
to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is
marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives
valiantly; who errs and comes short again and again;
because there is not effort without error and
shortcomings; but who does actually strive to do the
deed; who knows the great enthusiasm, the great
devotion, who spends himself in a worthy cause, who at
the best knows in the end the triumph of high
achievement and who at the worst, if he fails, at least
he fails while daring greatly. So that his place shall
never be with those cold and timid souls who know
neither victory nor defeat.” Teddy Roosevelt

Rinehart lost OK. The forums and social networks are ablaze with
these discussions. Lots of chatter.
Raise your hand if you believe a California court was
going to rule for Rinehart. Anyone?
We needed to support the Rinehart case, and many of
you did. Thanks. We still need to support it, and the
Bohmker Case in Oregon, and our CEQA Case, and Keith
Walker’s case. It ain’t over. Not by a long shot. Sure we
lost – again.
Even in losing causes we need to fight. We are still a free
people as long as we believe we are a free people. Once
we accept the notion we’ve lost our freedom we’re
doomed.
If you want to make your shackles more comfortable then go
ahead and sit this fight out, because it’s a losing fight. That’s the
ugly truth, it’s a losing fight.
We use to run our articles with a closing of “Molon Labe.”
Which in Greek means “Come take them.”
It was the response of King Leonidas to the Persians in 432 BC at
the Battle of Thermopylae. A battle where every Greek died and
the Persians proceeded to burn Athens to the ground.
In every fight for freedom many lose some, some lose all. Do we
stop fighting and concede to the State?
What happened to our willingness to fight that given a loss we
turn on ourselves and start to point fingers at those in the ring?
Perhaps all our lawsuits are losing causes. Are you willing to just
go sit on the couch and remember the days when you could
own a mining claim and run a suction dredge for a little bit of
fun with the dream of one day making a living doing it?
We’re the people who built this country. We’re the people who
wrote into the Constitution the safeguards to protect ourselves
from the bullies we knew would eventually rise up to rip our
Constitution from us. Each California Assembly member
represents 489,000 people. Sierra County, California, has a
population of just over 3,000 people.
Who represents Sierra County? Apparently the representatives
from Southern California do because they’re the ones writing
the laws. No representative from Northern California is writing
these laws. They wouldn’t dare because that’s not the will of
the people, the sovereign people of Northern California.
Yes, the California Supreme Court ruled we have no right to
mine. Nor does any other citizen have a right to earn a living
apparently. The Supreme Court essentially said your right to
earn a living ends when the majority decides what you do
offends them.
We now have a government which is sold to the highest bidder.
I’ll stay in the fight. Maybe we’ll keep losing, but we’re the sand
in the machine which maybe slows the gears down just a bit.
Maybe we’re the only oneswho are exposing this racket.Maybe
this is just a lost cause, but can you think of another cause
which is so important as saving our democracy?

I agree! But as a side subject and maybe off topic, Democracy is what got us into this mess maybe? It over stepped Rights? A group of people that are Offended shouldn't be able to over vote Rights, on even ONE person. They (gov at all levels) Needs rechecked?

I feel this same idea of the above applies to many parts of our lives right now, not just mining!

Ok, just my interpretation of the above and what I got a little confused on at the end! I understand the whole point and agree!!

Just had to throw the thought out there which may be wrong!

Added...To clear that thought up...

Everyone is fighting a bunch of small fires, I'm trying to understand what creates them! Where is the whole picture type of thing. Yes, we need to fight back and put out the small fires but who is the top guy or Ideal setting them?

That is what part of my thought was going on! my wording stinks! I want to be apart of the fight on all levels, so this is where some of this comes from. Not picking on the writing.....