How sure is it that the Lost Dutchman mine is in the Superstitions?

[missbuffy67]

A coworker of mine showed me some family heirloom papers the other day that place the Lost Dutchman somewhere else all together. This man was an Arizona Ranger around the turn of the century and a few years later worked as an Indian agent. (not sure if that is the right terminology) He recorded a story told to him by Native Americans about the trail built by the Dutchman to the mine. He also drew a map of the area where the trail is. There is also a detailed description of the location of a mining claim within the area of the map.
I've always heard the the LDM was in the Superstitions. Now I'm starting to wonder. I know these papers date 40-50 years after the Dutchman, but I guess I'm wondering if it's worth looking into. I'm no expert, but there was no indication that any of these papers weren't authentic. As for my coworker, well, he's not capable of faking these documents. He had never even heard of The Lost Dutchman Mine (he called it the Dutchman's Treasure and thought it was in Germany) and had never really looked these things until he brought them to work to show another coworker and me. I would love to hear any input on this.

 

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[Oroblanco]

HOLA amigo,

I would say that the evidence points to a site outside what we call the Superstition mountains today, but that the area known as the Superstition mountains in the past (including the time of Waltz) was considerably larger, especially north, NE and east. One might point to some bits of "clues" that point to a site outside the Superstitions too, such as:

Waltz made his home in what is today Phoenix, not closer to the mountains which he certainly could have done.

Waltz made a number of trips to buy supplies etc to Florence, which is also not near the Superstition mountains,

Waltz's partner, Wiser (Weiser, Wizer etc) when attacked by Apaches fled to the Pima settlements on the Salt river, quite some distance from the Superstitions

Waltz made a habit of leading anyone following him into the Superstition mountains, often seeming to "vanish" when close to Weaver's Needle - if the mine were truly located near that location, why would he lead followers that close? Doesn't it make more sense that he would MIS-lead them, away from his mine?

Of course there are many who disagree with this idea and are convinced that the mine must lie in the Superstitions. I won't ask you too many details about the documents you have, but may I ask what general area they point to? Thank you in advance,
your friend,
Oroblanco

 

[missbuffy67]

This is only speculation as I haven't been able to completely match the hand drawn map with any of the historic maps I've looked at, but it seems to point toward the north-central part of the state. There are several rock formations mentioned, none of which I've heard of or been able to find. I'm new at this and only been working on it as couple of days. If nothing else, I figure it's been an adventure just being able to look at and examine these documents.

 

[Oroblanco]

Wow that is certainly INTERESTING and well worth the time to investigate further, and there is at least one version of the Dutchman legend that places the mine in that area (Walnut canyon I believe) so who knows? You might be the one who FINDS the Lost Dutchman Mine! I hope you will keep us posted, and share photos of the heaps of gold ore that you bring out! Good luck and good hunting amigo, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
your friend,
Oroblanco

 

[Oroblanco]

HOLA amigos,
This question of how sure it is that the Lost Dutchman mine is actually in the Superstition mountains is an interesting one IMHO. What is the evidence to actually place the mine in the Superstitions? How does this evidence compare with the clues that the mine is actually OUTside the Superstitions? Thank you in advance,
Oroblanco

 

[missbuffy67]

Maybe it's like most legends. Starting with a grain of truth, then being embellished upon and retold again and again untill it becomes "truth" . I don't know. I've just started studying this subject and I'm already so confused. lol

 

[djui5]

Waltz himself said it was in the Superstitions, specifically he said the Superstitions-Salt River Mountains. He told Rhiney they would go to the "board house" and from there he would show them the trail they needed to take. That "board house" was either the "QCU" or the "First Water Ranch".

 

[pegleglooker]

bump

 

[missbuffy67]

Waltz himself said it was in the Superstitions, specifically he said the Superstitions-Salt River Mountains. He told Rhiney they would go to the "board house" and from there he would show them the trail they needed to take. That "board house" was either the "QCU" or the "First Water Ranch".

Again, I'm new at this, but why would he tell anyone where it was and be truthful about it? I mean, I know nothing of the mans character at all but, most people would lie to their own mothers to protect a find like that. Ok, that's a big generalization. However human beings in general become very greedy when there's that kind of loot in play. It just the nature of the beast.
I guess if it is in the Superstitions, then the minor evidence I've got that seems to contradict that (along with all the other similar evidence) is useless. Doesn't mean I stop looking into it, just means if it turns out it was right, it will be a bigger find, right?

 

[djui5]

Again, I'm new at this, but why would he tell anyone where it was and be truthful about it?

Rhiney was very close with Waltz. He was getting old and I believe wanted to pass the information on to someone. Since he was close with Rhiney, he pass the directions to the mine to him. Sadly Rhiney didn't listen well enough.

Imagine this, try to explain how to get somewhere with no roads, no mountains of any name (aside from Weavers Needle), and no maps. How easy would it be to get lost? Now imagine there are 2 of everything. That's the Superstitions during Waltz's time. It's really easy to see how the mine was never found when you consider what Waltz had to work with in describing the place Once you've hiked the area a few times you get it.

 

[Oroblanco]

Just want to add that folks still get lost in the Superstitions, with highways on every side of the mountains! (HI Randy by the way - I hope all is well with you!)

Missbuffy - I would suggest checking into several other lost mine "legends" - including the Lost Pick, the Black Maverick, and a few others with similar details that I can't recall the names of but Walnut Canyon and Bronco Canyon are frequently sited as landmarks in those tales; some have theorized that the Lost Pick, Black Maverick and several others are all referring to the same mine, and that it is the true mine of Jacob Waltz.

On the negative side, we also know that Joe Deering's gold samples were brought out of the Supers, as well as Wagoner's gold, and that the last man who claimed to have found the Lost Dutchman (Walt Gassler) was said to have had ore on him that matched the ore of Waltz, and his body was found in the Superstitions.

Whether the mine you are tracking is the mine of Waltz or not, there are over 300 lost mines in Arizona, and about any one of them would set you up for life financially if you should be lucky enough to find one. If it were me, I would certainly research the matter farther. What do you stand to lose?

Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope that you find the treasures that you seek.
your friend,
Oroblanco

 

[djui5]

Just want to add that folks still get lost in the Superstitions, with highways on every side of the mountains! (HI Randy by the way - I hope all is well with you!)
Oroblanco

haha I'm doing very well my friend, better than I have ever been actually. I sure do hope the same is true for you and Beth. Glad your back posting with us

 

[Furness]

If you can find details in the document that would indicate a specific area or an indication to narrow down the search area, then use the map to pick out any unusual or specific features,

you could then try google earth to try and locate the features that are on the map,
but be prepared to end up with square eyes by the end of the week,

js

 

[Peerless67]

Am I looking at a map in post #3?

 

[djui5]

Am I looking at a map in post #3?

No, but I was wondering what it was also. If it's a map then I'm lost

 

[missbuffy67]

Am I looking at a map in post #3?

No, but I was wondering what it was also. If it's a map then I'm lost

No, it's not a map. Just a couple pages from the notebook where the map was. The left side is the guys "emergency contact" person.... his mother. On the right I'm not sure but I think he was taking notes on different livestock and their brands. He spent a lot of paper doing that and counting sheep. Actual sheep, not just trying to fall asleep. lol

 

[Peerless67]

The book belonged to a guy named Rube Niel, you can read this quote at the link given.

Niel: I was born later, 1878, at Camp Verde, Arizona. We resided at Stoneman Lake. My father became ill, and we had to take him to Prescott. He was in Prescott for some length of time, and then came back and died at Beaver Creek in '84 [i.e., 1884]. He's buried at Central Verde. My mother later, when I was about nine years old, married a man by the name of Lyman S. Drum. He was a man that was born in Pennsylvania, and went to California in an early day, and then made his way back into Arizona. My sister later married a man that came in here with the Hashknife Cattle Company, Walter Durham, W. W. Durham.

http://www.nau.edu/library/speccoll/images/text/txt/57902.htm

its a transcript of tapes from an arizonian rangers reunion, he would have been 13 when the dutchman died



Theres some interesting old recordings here http://www.nau.edu/library/speccoll/images/text/txt/ of old timers being interviewed the ones beginning 579 seem oldest

 

[Salvor6]

WOW! Peerless you really are a great researcher!

 

[Peerless67]

I hate finding stuff like that. Ive been reading them all night. look at
this clip:



Babbitt: Well, Casner, I've heard rumors that he used to bury money, wouldn't put it in a bank or anyplace.

Stemmer: Well, I believe they're pretty well-founded. He had no confidence in banks, and very little in humanity in general.

Babbitt: Is it true that they tortured the fellow to try and get him to tell where he'd buried it once?

Stemmer: Yes, they burned his feet and did various other things to him, but they could never get him to tell.

Babbitt: How much do you estimate that he had buried?

Stemmer: Well, there's been different estimates -anywhere from $35,000 to $50,000.

Babbitt: Has any of it ever been found, insofar as you know?

Stemmer: No. They claim there has been, but there's nothing authentic about that.

Babbitt: What was it, probably in the form of gold?

Stemmer: In the form of gold. I'd like to give you a little incident here. He sold out a bunch of cattle and got about $15,000-$20,000 for the sale, and he buried it. And when he went out to get it later on, it was missing. So he also had sheep, and he thought one of the sheepherders had seen him bury it, so he strung the sheepherder up to a tree, and threatened him with hanging if he didn't divulge where he put the money, or that he got it. He pulled him up twice, and the herder stoutly denied that he had his money. And the third time he pulled him up, lightning struck the tree. Didn't hurt either Casner or the Mexican, but scared the devil out of both of 'em, and Casner turned the Mexican loose, and he said, "By God, he guessed he had the wrong (unclear)."

http://www.nau.edu/library/speccoll/images/text/txt/58051.htm

 

[Peerless67]

If you can locate the death record for Mrs Lynam S Drum, you will know the latest date that the notes could have been written. As he gives her as a contact incase of injury or death.

There is also indication of which part of Arizona he patroled as a ranger, and the indians he was in contact with.

Im sure there are lots of records availiable in Arizona.