How sure is it that the Lost Dutchman mine is in the Superstitions?

Cubfan64 · Aug 31, 2008

http://www.azrangers.org/

According to the above website, Reuben L Neill was one of the original 107 Arizona Rangers serving as a private from 1904 to 1906. He is buried in a grave in Greenwood Memorial Cemetery, Phoenix Arizona.

Cubfan64 · Aug 31, 2008

Marie Neil and Lyman S Drum were married in February 1883 in the town of Stoneman's Lake. In the 1900 census, they are listed as living in the Mormon Lake Precinct, Coconina, Arizona Territory. Lyman was 48 years old and Maria (listed as Myria or Magria in the census) was 42 years old.

I wasn't able to find any death information for either of them and also not able to find them in the 1910 census.

missbuffy67 · Sep 1, 2008

We have some info about where he was "stationed" or patrolled in AZ. We also have seen his marriage certificate and "commitions" (not sure if that's the right word) for a couple of his years in the Rangers. In the book he mentions where he got the story of the mine and the tribes he regularly had contact with. But, wow, you all have just blown me away. I'm wondering if someone else has researched this guy before, or is just really, REALLY fast and good at it?

Peerless67 · Sep 1, 2008

Cubfan64 said:
Marie Neil and Lyman S Drum were married in February 1883 in the town of Stoneman's Lake. In the 1900 census, they are listed as living in the Mormon Lake Precinct, Coconina, Arizona Territory. Lyman was 48 years old and Maria (listed as Myria or Magria in the census) was 42 years old.

I wasn't able to find any death information for either of them and also not able to find them in the 1910 census.

Good find, I found that to CF, could not find no death records either. It could be that I need to use all of the names she was known by? I believe she spent her last days in Az though, going by the sons interview

Cubfan64 · Sep 1, 2008

missbuffy67 said:
We have some info about where he was "stationed" or patrolled in AZ. We also have seen his marriage certificate and "commitions" (not sure if that's the right word) for a couple of his years in the Rangers. In the book he mentions where he got the story of the mine and the tribes he regularly had contact with. But, wow, you all have just blown me away. I'm wondering if someone else has researched this guy before, or is just really, REALLY fast and good at it?

I've never heard or looked into the man personally. I've just started getting really interested in researching things like this in the last couple years. It almost becomes an obsession

It's like being given a puzzle and KNOWING that the pieces are all out there - one just has to look in the right places and spend alot of time seeking them out.

I could live in a library and do this 24 hours a day, 365 days a year - wish I didn't have to work for a living

You might want to contact the Arizona Rangers and see if they can provide you with more information on his has well. If nothing else, it might corraborate what you do have now.

I have a link here you might be interested in too. There have been LOTS of maps to the LDM over the years and this website has quite a few to look at. I've only glanced at some of them, so I have no clue whether any or all are related to the Superstitions or are maybe general enough to point somewhere else. You might want to compare your map to all of them and see if you find a match - if nothing else, it would indicate that your map made it out into the mainstream at one time or another. If it doesn't match, I'd probably be more excited about it if I were you - it might actually be a REAL one

By the way - this is NOT all of the maps that have ever been associated with the LDM I'm sure - but it's a good place to start and a decent amount to look through. Let us know if you find a match or more importantly if you don't

http://www.ajpl.org/aj/museum/treasm.htm

missbuffy67 · Sep 2, 2008

Thanks to everyone for all the input. I looked at all of the maps on the site posted and read through some of the transcripts from the link in the earlier post. None of the maps seem even close to what I've got. I honestly believe it's pointing me a good deal north of where the LDM is supposed to be, so chances are it's not the same mine. But that's fine with me.

There is no mention of Weaver's Needle anywhere in the notebook, though he does mention a couple of geological features. Saddle Mountain is one. Unfortunately, I've found 3 different Saddle Mountains in AZ so far. lol
In the notebook, Neill says he got the tale of the trail to the mine from a couple of Navajo Indians he was questioning about some gold jewelry they had. They told him they inherited it from their relatives who killed a Dutchman and stole his gold nuggets.
I thought I'd try to find out if the Navajo of his time were living in the area I think the map points to.
He also mentions John D. Lee's speeches about the mine.
I think he believed it was the LDM. But from what information and legend is already out there, I'm inclined to think otherwise.

Cubfan64 · Sep 2, 2008

missbuffy67 said:
Thanks to everyone for all the input. I looked at all of the maps on the site posted and read through some of the transcripts from the link in the earlier post. None of the maps seem even close to what I've got. I honestly believe it's pointing me a good deal north of where the LDM is supposed to be, so chances are it's not the same mine. But that's fine with me. There is no mention of Weaver's Needle anywhere in the notebook, though he does mention a couple of geological features. Saddle Mountain is one. Unfortunately, I've found 3 different Saddle Mountains in AZ so far. lol
In the notebook, Neill says he got the tale of the trail to the mine from a couple of Navajo Indians he was questioning about some gold jewelry they had. They told him they inherited it from their relatives who killed a Dutchman and stole his gold nuggets.
I thought I'd try to find out if the Navajo of his time were living in the area I think the map points to.
He also mentions John D. Lee's speeches about the mine.
I think he believed it was the LDM. But from what information and legend is already out there, I'm inclined to think otherwise.

I would guess otherwise as well, however keep in mind that Jacob Waltz (The Dutchman) was actually German - Dutch is really a misnomer because Deutsch is the German language so many Germans were called Dutchmen by Americans. There were MANY German prospectors, so it's certainly not out of the realm of possibility at all that a different German found a rich source of gold and was killed by indians.

If nothing else, you have the beginnings of a very fun mystery to try to solve - the worst that can happen is you learn some things about history as you research it - the best that can happen is.... well... you know

missbuffy67 · Sep 2, 2008

My attitude about the whole thing is that it's an adventure. Regardless of how it turns out.

pegleglooker · Sep 2, 2008

hey gang,
Cubsfan hit the nail on the head. That is where the Pennsylvania Dutch got their name. It seems that English census takers thought they were saying Dutch, when they were really saying Deutsch. A little trivia to fill your heads...lol

PLL

cactusjumper · Sep 2, 2008

When asked where he was from, Waltz would have replied, Deutschland, same as any German from that era. If the people asking had a more worldly education, they might have called the mine: The Lost Deutschman Mine. :icon_scratch:

Joe Ribaudo

Cubfan64 · Sep 2, 2008

missbuffy67 said:
My attitude about the whole thing is that it's an adventure. Regardless of how it turns out.

And THAT is EXACTLY the right attitude to take!! Best of luck to you and keep us informed

truckinbutch · Sep 2, 2008

Cubfan64 said:
missbuffy67 said:

My attitude about the whole thing is that it's an adventure. Regardless of how it turns out.

Click to expand...

And THAT is EXACTLY the right attitude to take!! Best of luck to you and keep us informed

djui5 · Sep 2, 2008

missbuffy67 said:
In the notebook, Neill says he got the tale of the trail to the mine from a couple of Navajo Indians he was questioning about some gold jewelry they had. They told him they inherited it from their relatives who killed a Dutchman and stole his gold nuggets.

Well since Waltz didn't die at the hands of Navajo's, I'd be inclined to think it was a different "Dutchman"

You should try to find the mine. Who knows, maybe it's still full of Gold! Either way, like you said, the adventure is the best part. Nothing more exciting than hunting lost mines.

Oroblanco · Sep 2, 2008

Djui5 wrote:

Nothing more exciting than hunting lost mines.

Amen to that brother, after all a mine can't very well be dug up and carted off, nor moved - which helps a treasure hunter a little bit!
Oroblanco

Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp · Sep 3, 2008

Tally Ho djuicy/oro, the actual finding is sort of a let down after a short while. Sigh. Need another challenge.

Don Jose de La Mancha.

missbuffy67 · Sep 3, 2008

If nothing else, this will help me refine my research skills. I'm planning on going back to college within a year and studying cultural anthropology.

Thanks again to everyone for the input, advise and encouragement.

cptbild · Oct 20, 2008

How about this for a "Partnership/Deal" (anyone)
As you might be aware, my partner and I, are going to be out Prospecting/TH'ing
For, 12+ months
We could meet, talk over a site or two..
If all is acceptable,
We, Doc & I, will head out out set up a "Base Camp"!
"U" because of the "Time Factor", can come out afterwards
AND!
We'll all go see if it's there??
Of Course,
There are other factors that we'll need to agree on, etc
But!
This is generally the "Suggestion" ??
Oh!
By The Way!
We have "Aerial Capability" (Over Flight) :tongue3: