Hypothetical question- treasure removal. Need ideas!

[perdidogringo]

Such great replies! Thanks to everyone for chiming in with feedback (even hypothetical feedback!).

You've got great ideas here. Your problem seems to be legality. Before I did anything, I'd investigate Colombian prisons and decide if 10 years or so could be endured. TV? Decent food? Conjugal visits? Bed comfort? Big Bubba as a roommate? Don't do the crime if you can't do the time...Just saying.

Let me clarify the situation a little more. This area is on private land in a 3rd world country and we DO have permission from the owner to search. This is how it came about- About 6 months ago, a local went to a cantina and wanted to pay for his cervezas with a 4 real Spanish cob. So the owner gladly accepted it knowing it was worth way more than the tab (but he still had no clue to its' actual value). A few days later a couple of gringos (not me and I don't know them) came into this cantina and were told about these cobs. Seeing an opportunity, they traced down this local who paid with the cob. The local told the gringos he had found a couple of these cobs while clearing some land in the jungle for a landowner. The local offered to lead these 2 gringos to the place for a price ($20 USD!). These gringos went to the spot and over the next few weeks with the help of the original local and a couple of his friends, found upwards of 50-60 more 4 and 8 real Spanish cobs from the mid to late 1500s in great condition (they did this on the sly without informing the owner of the property). They dug until the hole became quite large and filled with water. After this, the owner of the land (whom we know) found out about the excavation taking place on his land, and discovered the hole. The 2 gringos were long gone by then. The owner subsequently reached out to a friend of mine to further excavate (if possible). Thus, it's on private land and we have permission. However, it's extremely dangerous to let information like this get out in a 3rd world country with numerous criminals, crooked law enforcement officials, desperate people, scammers, etc. That's why we can't just bring in heavy equipment and bring attention. People have been murdered here for much less. So not a legal issue but a safety issue.

 

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[perdidogringo]

What source of information tells you "for a fact" that these "valuable Spanish cobs were found" ?

If it's just "he said she said", telephone game stuff, then I don't buy it. Down in Columbia, Mexico, South America, treasure lore is a dime a dozen. So too did I hear fabulous stories of treasures found in caves, caches of coins found in walls of old ruins, and so forth . Each and every story is iron-clad by the person telling you. But pry deeper, and you'll never see the coins themselves . Or you try to talk to the person who told your friend that, and ... well ... it turns out he had only heard it from someone else . So you track down THAT person. And ... you guessed it: They too didn't actually see the coins. And soon you begin to see the telephone game at work. But in their mind's eyes, it's always first-hand iron-clad true.

Even the presence of a hole that someone dug in their quest for treasure, doesn't mean they found anything. They, like yourself, might have been chasing the same fanciful ghost story.

These are all really good points, Tom. But this one isn't a legend as I've seen one of the cobs with my own eyes. My friend was asked to go help the landowner search for more cobs at the site since my friend has metal detectors and experience treasure hunting in Colombia. So he went there the first time and he saw the huge hole and a large dirt pile right next to it. So he first starts detecting the dirt pile and wouldn't you know it? The 2 gringos failed to check their dirt pile, obviously, because my friend found 4 real (pillars and waves) cob from the mid-1500s in it! So he was flying high at that point. He's been back there several times (myself, also), but that hole is a real problem.

 

[perdidogringo]

Well since it's hypothetical, maybe you are looking at the problem the wrong way. From what I'm getting this was dry land at one time, and then the Yahoos, err Treasure Hunters digging it up caused it to flood. So fix the flooding problem and let it dry up. A darn Beaver can change the course of of stream with a bunch of sticks. So instead of combating a never ending flooding of the spot, you move the water away from the spot. It will then dry up, and you can dig to your heart's content.

It was dry (as dry as the jungle gets anyway) land before, yes. However, you have to understand that there is a medium-sized river that snakes around the site (and it rains a lot) so it is unlikely to just "dry up."

 

[perdidogringo]

You know there is 30-70! gram per ton gold deposits everywhere around you right The last thing I would be looking for is a Cob, if you could get a small dredge running you could make a killing in the right spot. Heck build a ball mill I have way more maps of this area if you want pm me for them but I'd def read this one. https://pubs.er.usgs.gov/publication/ofr7369

Nice find, Alex! Yes, many opportunities for gold prospecting here in Colombia. Again, the problem is safety and the locals are mighty protective of their claims. However, if I can make the right connections here, I make take a stab at it in the future.

 

[SADS 669]

Don't try to reinvent the wheel with complications. Force a grid down into the mud as far as it will go, then find a way to slide something over the big grid holes once it is potentially past the coins and bring the closed cell grid up. Something like a potato mashing kitchen tool but on a larger scale.

Another way is to do the same from one side to the other with a winch or block and tackle or cum a long after you place a snatch block at 8 ft depth at the other side.

Think of a way to get something down there with big holes in.......past the suspended coins.....then close the grid holes to a bit smaller than coin sized?

The watery mud should flow out, or don't make it too big and you should be able to bring up mud a bit at a time, also with dive gear you can force your arm down 3 to 4 ft, I used to do so for golf balls in mud.

Just a thought.....sat here drinking coffee in my little plywood house......

 

[perdidogringo]

Don't try to reinvent the wheel with complications. Force a grid down into the mud as far as it will go, then find a way to slide something over the big grid holes once it is potentially past the coins and bring the closed cell grid up.

Another way is to do the same from one side to the other with a winch or block and tackle or cum a long.

Think of a way to get something down there with big holes in.......past the suspended coins.....then close the grid holes to a bit smaller than coin sized?

The watery mud should flow out, or don't make it too big and you should be able to bring up mud a bit at a time, also with dive gear you can force your arm down 3 to 4 ft, I used to do so for golf balls in mud.

Just a thought.....sat here drinking coffee in my little plywood house......

Great idea, SADS! This just might work.

 

[SADS 669]

PD,

I just Edited with additional thoughts. If it works, one coin would seal the deal....ha ha.

 

[releventchair]

What is the estimated time of the coins being placed?
What is the "normal" effect of the aquifer on the height of the water table ,seasonably and historically?
While the existing excavation suggests depth ,would the original deposit have been made at such depth that fighting hydraulics of shifty soil would have been encountered...or a shallower and larger area covered.
Multiple sites on the same site?

If my site to work ,after a quick search of the debris pile(s) and scanning the hole I would accurately mark the holes location (in a manner not conspicuously, by mapping ,measuring ,g.p.s. ect.) ,then fill the hole and blend the surface to match it's surroundings.

Next would be establishing an obviously worked and marked decoy area, including a poorly concealed excavation site , for those who come a pirating to locate and waste their time on.
Do clear the decoy site of artifacts ect. first though,just in case!
Monitor it by camera or personal and frequent observation...safely , in hopes of a notice you have company in your search.

If water is available use it to your advantage. It seeks it's own level unless gravity allows it to move downhill.
When site is secured and you have a protective defense ,digging a hole will result in it's water level ,depending on ground height, the same as an adjacent hole.
About where water is reached in digging would seem to be deep enough for a cache if depth is enough to cover it.
Any deeper risks sinking or moving of an object with fluctuation of quicksand type saturated soil.

The condition of recovered coins might tell if they had been long saturated or simply resting in soil.

 

[Robot]

It appears that your main problem is not how to do this, but getting the rights to do this!

"Rule Number 1" in Treasure Hunting is always get "Permission" and "Right of Acquisition" before wasting your time in something that may eventually be taken from you!

Get this and we may have some sweet ideas that will not cost you too much to obtain.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

.... This is how it came about- About 6 months ago, a local went to a cantina and wanted to pay for his cervezas with a 4 real Spanish cob! So the owner gladly accepted it knowing it was worth way more than the tab (but he still had no clue to its' actual value). A few days later a couple of gringos (not me and I don't know them) came into this cantina and were told about these cobs. Seeing an opportunity,....

Perdidogringo, thanx for the added parts of the story. As I read this account, I kept asking myself "why does this sound so familiar ?". The theme/premise of this part of the story, is oft-reported over and over, in multitudes of treasure stories. If you ever picked up any of the 1960s/70's treasure mags, this "lead in" was often a part of the story. Ie.: someone goes in to buy his groceries from the wild west town with giant nuggets (so it's merely a matter of following the man's clues as to his "hidden mine"). Or the children or persons who go to the cantina to buy a drink with silver dollars or spanish reales (because they have no concept of the value, or no place to liquidate them, etc...).

So too is your story lock-step in line with that.

As for having seen one of the coins, I'd even be careful of that. To "see an old coin" doesn't necessarily make the rest of the story true. Spanish reales are available on Ebay , or coin-dealers, that anyone can buy. You'd be surprised how many people get handed a coin said to have come from "such & such story". And the coin gets passed from friend to friend, family member to family member, and pretty soon, the supposed origin/source of that coin is "iron-clad" & un-disputed.

And please don't think I'm insinuating that anyone in this trail-of-clues is necessarily "lying". Far from it! On the contrary: They will be utterly convinced of the details, and are not purposefully spinning or mis-leading anything. They will be quite sincere.

 

[perdidogringo]

Perdidogringo, thanx for the added parts of the story. As I read this account, I kept asking myself "why does this sound so familiar ?". The theme/premise of this part of the story, is oft-reported over and over, in multitudes of treasure stories. If you ever picked up any of the 1960s/70's treasure mags, this "lead in" was often a part of the story. Ie.: someone goes in to buy his groceries from the wild west town with giant nuggets (so it's merely a matter of following the man's clues as to his "hidden mine"). Or the children or persons who go to the cantina to buy a drink with silver dollars or spanish reales (because they have no concept of the value, or no place to liquidate them, etc...).

So too is your story lock-step in line with that.

As for having seen one of the coins, I'd even be careful of that. To "see an old coin" doesn't necessarily make the rest of the story true. Spanish reales are available on Ebay , or coin-dealers, that anyone can buy. You'd be surprised how many people get handed a coin said to have come from "such & such story". And the coin gets passed from friend to friend, family member to family member, and pretty soon, the supposed origin/source of that coin is "iron-clad" & un-disputed.

And please don't think I'm insinuating that anyone in this trail-of-clues is necessarily "lying". Far from it! On the contrary: They will be utterly convinced of the details, and are not purposefully spinning or mis-leading anything. They will be quite sincere.

I completely understand what your saying, Tom, and can appreciate the skepticism. I probably wouldn't believe this story, reading it on the internet, since it's sounds like a combination of the Oak Island pit and (like you said) versions of others treasure legends over the years. Of course, I was not actually there with the 2 gringos when they excavated the original coins, so I cannot be 100% sure that the story is completely accurate. The amount of coins found are only substantiated by the recollections of the uneducated local who guided the gringos to the site.

So anyone reading this should be skeptical since they haven't seen any evidence themselves and are relying on the observations and experiences of an anonymous dude on the web. But I'm 95% sure in my mind that numerous cobs were pulled out of this hole. I'm 50/50 whether there is any cobs left, though. I think there could be because these 2 gringos were sloppy by not seeking permission from the landowner, the way they allowed the hole to flood, and by leaving a 4 real cob in the dirt pile. If not anything else, I think it's definitely worth a search. Nothing really to lose as long as we can keep costs down.

 

[perdidogringo]

It appears that your main problem is not how to do this, but getting the rights to do this!

"Rule Number 1" in Treasure Hunting is always get "Permission" and "Right of Acquisition" before wasting your time in something that may eventually be taken from you!

Get this and we may have some sweet ideas that will not cost you too much to obtain.

Not sure what you are talking about, Robot. We have permission. I would suggest you read the complete thread.

 

[Robot]

Not sure what you are talking about, Robot. We have permission. I would suggest you read the complete thread.

My apologizes as you did state on page 2 of your thread that you have "Permission" from the Owner, but did not state that any agreement as to "Division of Goods" is in place once or if any treasure is found.

The "Secrecy" you elude to appears that nothing short of a shovel and pail at night under candle light would be acceptable!

 

[perdidogringo]

My apologizes as you did state on page 2 of your thread that you have "Permission" from the Owner, but did not state that any agreement as to "Division of Goods" is in place once or if any treasure is found.

The "Secrecy" you elude to appears that nothing short of a shovel and pail at night under candle light would be acceptable!

Ah.. yeah, ok. Thanks for the feedback. This isn't Kansas, Toto!

 

[cw0909]

Hi all,

I have a hypothetical question to ask the veteran treasure hunters. Say you encounter a place in a jungle environment where you know for a fact that numerous extremely valuable Spanish cobs were found recently. You have reason to believe that there are more. This place, in the middle of the jungle (outside the USA) next to a small river, is now a very large hole (maybe 20 feet by 15 feet) and filled with water after the original excavators finished collecting all the treasure they could. They gave up after it filled with water, became a bog, and became too difficult. The "bed" of the hole is thick mud and when you stand in it, you immediately sink up to your knees in the mud. With a probe, it was determined that the mud itself under the water goes at least 8 feet deep. The water was drained once with a pump but they were unable to find any further cobs because the mud is too deep (the cobs have sank deep). I know this situation sounds a little "Oak Island"-like but it is a different situation.

So... any ideas on how to get through the mud to get to the remaining cobs? Heavy machinery is not an option since we wouldn't want the attention plus it's just not practical to get into the jungle. It would have to be cost-effective, also. Thanks in advance for your feedback and/or ideas.

you say close to a small river, and your hole prob is not square like the random img

maybe one side of the pit is lower toward the river, and you can dig a drainage ditch
and if not maybe dig the D ditch on one of the other sides and route to the river like
a big S or C. i dont know just seems being covert would work with im just draining to
whatever you do in the jungle there, may have to pay dues to an adjacent landowner
so may not be worth the cost to pay the drainage fee
i think it would be cool to own land in a jungle though just saying

 

[perdidogringo]

you say close to a small river, and your hole prob is not square like the random img

maybe one side of the pit is lower toward the river, and you can dig a drainage ditch
and if not maybe dig the D ditch on one of the other sides and route to the river like
a big S or C. i dont know just seems being covert would work with im just draining to
whatever you do in the jungle there, may have to pay dues to an adjacent landowner
so may not be worth the cost to pay the drainage fee
i think it would be cool to own land in a jungle though just saying

We had the same idea initially (drainage ditch) and tried it but unfortunately, the land is on mostly level ground. It didn't work because, as you can guess, it was too level and we couldn't get gravity to work for us. We were able to drain the hole once with a pump like the one in the photo- that's not the problem. The problem is the 8 ft of mud at the bottom of the hole (and it refills with water quickly) that acts like quicksand. I almost lost my AT Pro not to mention my Garrett Carrot a few times. For clarification, the landowner owns practically all of the land around the site (up to the river) so adjacent landowners aren't an issue at all.

There's been some great suggestions on this thread (some we will hopefully try soon) and I appreciate those of you who offered constructive help!

 

[shepcal]

Well as said somewhere up above, a facsimile of a dredge. You have the pump, make a power jet and hose, suck the mud up and any cobs. Don't need a sluice box, just a screen bed w/ holes smaller than coins. Might need a long hose to get material away from pit, but best solution I can see.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

i just want to remember this thread

 

[kcm]

Well as said somewhere up above, a facsimile of a dredge. You have the pump, make a power jet and hose, suck the mud up and any cobs. Don't need a sluice box, just a screen bed w/ holes smaller than coins. Might need a long hose to get material away from pit, but best solution I can see.

Being the "typical American" that I am, you might want to consider "supersizing". Use a large, powerful pump to make a very large suction dredge with suitable nozzle. Lower the suction nozzle into the hole using a crane or excavator - something that is safely away from the sinking ground. Someone would have to radio directions to the operator. This way you're moving material as quickly as possible (hopefully faster than groundwater seeps in) and nobody is down in the hole - no risk of injury or need of rescue. Suck the items up, run them through a large sluice or screen - something to separate the muck from solids.

THEN look for the goodies.

 

[audigger53]

This may be a little late, but you could take 50 Gal drum, cut the bottom off put heavy mesh screen on the bottom, tack weld it. Then put holes around the top of it and use ropes and make a dredge that way. Use a mule to pull it out of the mud and see what's on the screen. Each time you do it on the same path it will be lower down. As long as the mesh size is smaller than the coins you will not loose any. No motors, mules or horses to drag it out. Almost like making a sand scoop.