I am a noob and I have questions. Lots of em.

[ConceptualizedNetherlandr]

I am a noob and I have questions. Lots of 'em.

Hi folks. I guy mentioned LDM to me a while back so I googled it and have been reading until my eyes are bleeding.

Lots of things from here, and all over the webz.

It is not all that easy to find specific things some times even with search.

So if you will indulge me:

What are the coordinates for the pit mine, I'd like to GE that.

Of all those clues out there ... some 'authors' seem to be discredited. I grabbed that list of 100(102). Which clue sources are supposedly the ones to use and which to toss?

I can understand that mine locations were kept secret and for good reason, and upon deaths and such were 'lost'. And I can understand obscuring the entrance. There could easily be lots of small value lost mines, and perhaps more than one substantial one. The thing I don't get is the certainty that LDM has a million ounces +++ (or whatever). At best the claims are opinion, unverified and poorly documented, if real. By the way, was the notion that Jacob Waltz Filled covered and hid the entrance generally accepted?

I am not being a super skeptic, just trying to have a clear look at this.

Maps. Those are driving me crazy. Can those be ranked by credit worthiness, never mind the cryptic nature of things. Do we have the "hand drawn map" referenced in 'Adolph Ruth's Directions to the LDM.pdf'?

The 'one of three' Ruth maps received form Gonzales seems to be a slam dunk for a famous location, I assume some of you all have checked this out personally? So many of the other clues fit there it is unreal.

Which if any of the maps are known/determined/presumed to be flipped? For example, the Jenkins map (11 as I have it) seems it might be mirrored.

I'll break here for now and go back to reading.

There is a long ton of info out there and I am requesting that you experts help focus me.

Thanks in advance, Much appreciated.

 

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[Oroblanco]

Hi folks. I guy mentioned LDM to me a while back so I googled it and have been reading until my eyes are bleeding.

Lots of things from here, and all over the webz.

It is not all that easy to find specific things some times even with search.

So if you will indulge me:

What are the coordinates for the pit mine, I'd like to GE that.

Of all those clues out there ... some 'authors' seem to be discredited. I grabbed that list of 100(102). Which clue sources are supposedly the ones to use and which to toss?

I can understand that mine locations were kept secret and for good reason, and upon deaths and such were 'lost'. And I can understand obscuring the entrance. There could easily be lots of small value lost mines, and perhaps more than one substantial one. The thing I don't get is the certainty that LDM has a million ounces +++ (or whatever). At best the claims are opinion, unverified and poorly documented, if real. By the way, was the notion that Jacob Waltz Filled covered and hid the entrance generally accepted?

I am not being a super skeptic, just trying to have a clear look at this.

Maps. Those are driving me crazy. Can those be ranked by credit worthiness, never mind the cryptic nature of things. Do we have the "hand drawn map" referenced in 'Adolph Ruth's Directions to the LDM.pdf'?

The 'one of three' Ruth maps received form Gonzales seems to be a slam dunk for a famous location, I assume some of you all have checked this out personally? So many of the other clues fit there it is unreal.

Which if any of the maps are known/determined/presumed to be flipped? For example, the Jenkins map (11 as I have it) seems it might be mirrored.

I'll break here for now and go back to reading.

There is a long ton of info out there and I am requesting that you experts help focus me.

Thanks in advance, Much appreciated.

Welcome to Treasurenet ConceptualizedNetherlandr!

Also welcome to the madness of hunting the Lost Dutchman gold mine - and your questions have many different answers! My bet is that you will not find three Dutch-hunters whom will agree on every answer here, but will try to address some of your questions.

What are the coordinates for the pit mine, I'd like to GE that.

As I do not have the coordinates perhaps someone else can provide that.

Which clue sources are supposedly the ones to use and which to toss?

The best answer to that is that you must sort that out for your own satisfaction. It is pretty much a certainty that not all of those clues actually apply to the mine of Jacob Waltz, but have become mixed up with it over time. I would recommend to try to get to the closest source(s) you can, as being the most likely to be accurate; this would mean Sims Ely's book the Lost Dutchman Gold Mine as Ely interviewed Julia Thomas and Reiney Petrasch, two of Waltz's friends and whom also hunted for the mine un-successfully (which raises questions about how accurate their information is) and the Holmes Manuscript, as Dick Holmes also knew Waltz and was supposedly present at his deathbed, from which the directions published are obtained. This is published in a book by a fellow member here Thomas Glover, titled The Lost Dutchman Mine of Jacob Waltz part 2, The Holmes Manuscript. However there are clues in the manuscript which are provably false, like the statement from Waltz that he could not file a claim due to his not being an American citizen, and we have it that Brownie Holmes disowned having written it. The earliest sources available are written by Pierpont Bicknell for the newspapers, I believe they are in some old threads here but Bicknell has the reputation as having embellished the story. Another early source is an article written by John D. Mitchell titled The Lost Dutchman mine, which has basically the same information as the rest, but from slightly different sources who knew Waltz and witnessed him selling gold etc.

The thing I don't get is the certainty that LDM has a million ounces +++ (or whatever). At best the claims are opinion, unverified and poorly documented, if real. By the way, was the notion that Jacob Waltz Filled covered and hid the entrance generally accepted?

That statement is totally un-verified, attributed to someone accusing Waltz of having only found a rich pocket, which raised his indignation and he made the statement about there being enough gold left in his mine, to make millionaires of twenty men - with the price then at $20.67 per ounce, he was saying there was a million ounces visible in the mine. In support of this idea, the gold ore used to create the famous match box, is of a type of gold vein that is most often NOT found as a pocket but can run to great depths and contain a great deal of gold, unlikely to pinch out as the more common epithermal type gold veins.

Whether the mine was covered or not is NOT a settled issue, many think it is open and the story of Joe Deering finding the mine open to the sky, as well as the funnel shaped pit etc however speaking ONLY for myself, I am certain the mine was covered up. In support of this was a simple statement made by Waltz to his young friend Reiney Petrasch, when he was trying to tell Reiney how to find the mine:

"Reiney you better listen! That mine is hard to find, EVEN WHEN YOU KNOW WHERE IT IS!"

Maps. Those are driving me crazy. Can those be ranked by credit worthiness, never mind the cryptic nature of things. Do we have the "hand drawn map" referenced in 'Adolph Ruth's Directions to the LDM.pdf'?

Hoo boy - these treasure maps are something I would recommend NOT to trust at all, for keep in mind that they have been in the public circulation for many many years, and have been tried by MANY a treasure hunter without success. Most of these maps were drawn up by people whom HAD NOT found the Lost Dutchman's mine so are as good as me telling you how to get to the post office in Copenhagen since I have never been there either. Ruth's maps also required a set of written directions on how to use them - which apparently he was wise enough to memorize and then destroy for his killer did not get them and as far as I know, they were never found. As Ruth himself stated, without the written directions that go with his maps, they are of NO use.

I do not claim to be an "expert" here and there are many experienced and highly knowledgeable members here whom can probably answer your questions better, but I hope this has been of some use to you.

Good luck and good hunting amigo, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

 

[ConceptualizedNetherlandr]

Welcome to Treasurenet ConceptualizedNetherlandr!

Thank you. I have read a bunch over the past few days and expected no less of a welcome

Also welcome to the madness of hunting the Lost Dutchman gold mine - and your questions have many different answers! My bet is that you will not find three Dutch-hunters whom will agree on every answer here, but will try to address some of your questions.

As I do not have the coordinates perhaps someone else can provide that.

The best answer to that is that you must sort that out for your own satisfaction. It is pretty much a certainty that not all of those clues actually apply to the mine of Jacob Waltz, but have become mixed up with it over time. I would recommend to try to get to the closest source(s) you can, as being the most likely to be accurate; this would mean Sims Ely's book the Lost Dutchman Gold Mine as Ely interviewed Julia Thomas and Reiney Petrasch, two of Waltz's friends and whom also hunted for the mine un-successfully (which raises questions about how accurate their information is) and the Holmes Manuscript, as Dick Holmes also knew Waltz and was supposedly present at his deathbed, from which the directions published are obtained. This is published in a book by a fellow member here Thomas Glover, titled The Lost Dutchman Mine of Jacob Waltz part 2, The Holmes Manuscript. However there are clues in the manuscript which are provably false, like the statement from Waltz that he could not file a claim due to his not being an American citizen, and we have it that Brownie Holmes disowned having written it. The earliest sources available are written by Pierpont Bicknell for the newspapers, I believe they are in some old threads here but Bicknell has the reputation as having embellished the story. Another early source is an article written by John D. Mitchell titled The Lost Dutchman mine, which has basically the same information as the rest, but from slightly different sources who knew Waltz and witnessed him selling gold etc.

That statement is totally un-verified, attributed to someone accusing Waltz of having only found a rich pocket, which raised his indignation and he made the statement about there being enough gold left in his mine, to make millionaires of twenty men - with the price then at $20.67 per ounce, he was saying there was a million ounces visible in the mine. In support of this idea, the gold ore used to create the famous match box, is of a type of gold vein that is most often NOT found as a pocket but can run to great depths and contain a great deal of gold, unlikely to pinch out as the more common epithermal type gold veins.

Whether the mine was covered or not is NOT a settled issue, many think it is open and the story of Joe Deering finding the mine open to the sky, as well as the funnel shaped pit etc however speaking ONLY for myself, I am certain the mine was covered up. In support of this was a simple statement made by Waltz to his young friend Reiney Petrasch, when he was trying to tell Reiney how to find the mine:

"Reiney you better listen! That mine is hard to find, EVEN WHEN YOU KNOW WHERE IT IS!"

That doesn't scream covered to me, or he would have said 'even if I hadn't covered it'? Is the story of him covering it from a reliable source? Seems strange that he would - unless he knew of impending demise, but if the situation was that grim would he haul himself back out there to do it?

Hoo boy - these treasure maps are something I would recommend NOT to trust at all, for keep in mind that they have been in the public circulation for many many years, and have been tried by MANY a treasure hunter without success. Most of these maps were drawn up by people whom HAD NOT found the Lost Dutchman's mine so are as good as me telling you how to get to the post office in Copenhagen since I have never been there either. Ruth's maps also required a set of written directions on how to use them - which apparently he was wise enough to memorize and then destroy for his killer did not get them and as far as I know, they were never found. As Ruth himself stated, without the written directions that go with his maps, they are of NO use.

I do not claim to be an "expert" here and there are many experienced and highly knowledgeable members here whom can probably answer your questions better, but I hope this has been of some use to you.

Good luck and good hunting amigo, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

So far I hunt game This seems interesting but I am in research phase Thank you again!

 

[Oroblanco]

Thank you. I have read a bunch over the past few days and expected no less of a welcome That doesn't scream covered to me, or he would have said 'even if I hadn't covered it'? Is the story of him covering it from a reliable source? Seems strange that he would - unless he knew of impending demise, but if the situation was that grim would he haul himself back out there to do it?

So far I hunt game This seems interesting but I am in research phase Thank you again!

Well consider this, if the mine were NOT covered, what would be difficult about finding it when you KNOW where it is? It only makes sense that the mine was well covered and concealed, hence his warning to Reiney. Also, consider that many thousands of people have searched for it, un-successfully, which in itself supports the contention that the mine is both covered and well concealed. There could be large cactus growing on top of it today, after over a century, or perhaps the logs supporting the covering have rotted and allowed it to cave in, which might leave only a small depression in the earth to see. If on the other hand, the mine were NOT covered, it stands to reason that someone should have found it by now even if only by accident, or by spotting it from an airplane.

Covering over your own mine is not that rare amigo; I have done it myself and I know several other people whom cover their mines when ever they leave them, even if they intend to return in a few days time. It is good practice if you have a good mine, otherwise anyone might happen on it and start stealing your gold and this is true even when you own the claim, and remember Waltz had not filed a claim.

Good luck and good hunting amigo, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

 

[ConceptualizedNetherlandr]

I hear you. But ... all that work by hand? Filling it with hand sawn trees, then rocks then native soils and what not to match the surroundings. How many days work is that? How big was this funnel?

Now if I understand current regulations we can't go digging around anyway, right? Can't remove a pile of stones to reveal an entrance? And if that is true this thing has been legally put out of view?

Some things I read make this sound like a shallow pit surface excavation. What makes it hard to find, even if left open is a) size (planes) and b) being behind the rim of a raised depression (foot traffic). Were those clues hogwash or are they considered viable?

 

[Oroblanco]

I hear you. But ... all that work by hand? Filling it with hand sawn trees, then rocks then native soils and what not to match the surroundings. How many days work is that? How big was this funnel?

If Waltz's mine really were as big as that version has it, then it would have been quite a task to cover it up well; however there is reason to believe that his mine had NOTHING to do with that story of the funnel shaped pit, which is the Peralta mine story/Ludy brothers, which got "grafted" onto Waltz's story very early. If you read the story of the lost Ludy brothers mine, it is virtually a match for the Peralta mine; conversely, at least one source states that Waltz's mine had an opening "no larger than a barrel" and was not more than 12 feet deep. This makes for a relatively small mine and could be well covered up in an afternoon. It also makes sense that the mine is NOT a huge open pit with funnel-shaped top etc considering how many have searched for it without finding it. Waltz is not recorded as having sold massive amounts of gold, as one would expect to be the product of a massive mine, rather the most I have seen written about, witnessed getting sold at one time was a single burro load, which would have been enough work for one man working with hand tools to have mined out. Even that much would be hard work with hammer, chisels and pick!

ConceptualizedNetherlandr also wrote

Now if I understand current regulations we can't go digging around anyway, right? Can't remove a pile of stones to reveal an entrance? And if that is true this thing has been legally put out of view?

The regulations inside the Wilderness Area are quite strict, however you can still use a probe to locate an open mine shaft without doing any digging, removing a stack of stones is not a wise idea as it is possible, even probable that they may be a mining claim corner monument or a trail marker, and it is illegal to alter or destroy a mining claim monument and not wise to alter a trail marker. However it is quite possible that the mine may well lie OUT-side of the official Wilderness Area boundaries, you must decide for yourself of course and it is just my opinion but I think it is outside the wilderness area and outside the Wilderness Area you are bound by the far less restrictive rules for prospecting - in other words you can dig a prospect hole, you must fill it back in when finished and if you plan to do any large scale digging then permits will still be needed. However it is possible to get permits to dig in a Wilderness Area, however you will need solid evidence to make your case that you have good reason to dig in a particular spot, and be prepared to deal with a long process and plenty of red tape for there are plenty of people whom do not want anyone doing any digging in the wilderness areas - not even for poop!


ConceptualizedNetherlandr also wrote

Some things I read make this sound like a shallow pit surface excavation. What makes it hard to find, even if left open is a) size (planes) and b) being behind the rim of a raised depression (foot traffic). Were those clues hogwash or are they considered viable?

You need to sort out those clues to your own satisfaction - personally I do not rely on the clues too much nor think it a good idea for others to rely on the clues alone; I am sure there are plenty whom disagree with me but I believe the mine could be found in the same way it was first discovered, which was by the hard and tedious work of prospecting. The mineral deposit was eroded by nature over millenia, and traces of the ore had to have traveled down hill/down stream of the mine which is how it got discovered in the first place. One version of Waltz story, found in the Pioneer Interviews and as far as I know not online nor in any book, states that he used a drywasher to trace the gold back to the vein - no Peraltas, no massacre, no funnel shaped pit etc and yet still a remarkable story, which in my opinion is the true and correct one. However like the proverbial body part which was ought not refer to as this is a Family Oriented site, everyone has an opinion! All that said, I think a diligent and methodical search by prospecting methods only, will find the mine - and then after that is done, one can compare the numerous "clues" against the location to see which were true. It may be wise to keep them in mind while searching anyway, but I would not recommend hunting for the mine based on following out any set of clues. Many thousands of people have tried that method, and dug holes in places where they thought it fit the clues, which turned up NO gold and no mine; these old prospect pits and tunnels dot the Superstitions today and people occasionally find them and think they have found the Lost Dutchman mine - but NO GOLD as it was dug by other searchers when they found a spot that fit the clues.

Waltz was quoted as saying that unless you find the large cache near the mine, you can not find the mine, so apparently he felt that was the key link to finding the shaft. It is possible that in over 100 years time, just the action of rain washing away the dirt may have un-covered the cache of ore, or even the mine itself; also he stated that the vein actually cropped out in the canyon below the mine, which he also covered - this too may have become un-covered by time, and someone may walk across it tomorrow without digging a single shovel of dirt!

I hope this helps you amigo, if you would like a few suggestions for recommendations of books and/or articles, web sites to help you just say the word. If you decide to try your hand and go exploring in the Superstition mountains, I can guarantee that you will have an adventure of a lifetime and return with memories impossible to put a dollar value on, plus will have a great story to tell your grandchildren of the time you went hunting for the Lost Dutchman mine in a desert wilderness, even if you never find the mine. That said, I believe that someone WILL find that mine some day, perhaps by accident, and many treasure hunters will be amazed that they had walked right past it. Good luck and good hunting amigo, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

Sock coffee anyone?

 

[releventchair]

Was that sock white once?Too if ore was coming from a mine that no one else but Jacob pulled from,( and that is a case of argument, one I recall had him working a previously worked site) ,when as likely from either watching or backtracking him the natives knew of its existence and Jacob was not around would they close it to avoid its being spotted again and bringing yet more traffic to the area? One account had trees cut near funnel used as timbers to floor funnel and caliche over then tailings or rubble filled and shaft down hill from funnel covered as well. Not my idea but one I could lean towards with it not standing out as described previously making it hard enough to spot before trying to conceal it.

 

[ConceptualizedNetherlandr]

I sure hope you are cutting and pasting some of this

If Waltz's mine really were as big as that version has it, then it would have been quite a task to cover it up well; however there is reason to believe that his mine had NOTHING to do with that story of the funnel shaped pit, which is the Peralta mine story/Ludy brothers, which got "grafted" onto Waltz's story very early. If you read the story of the lost Ludy brothers mine, it is virtually a match for the Peralta mine; conversely, at least one source states that Waltz's mine had an opening "no larger than a barrel" and was not more than 12 feet deep. This makes for a relatively small mine and could be well covered up in an afternoon. It also makes sense that the mine is NOT a huge open pit with funnel-shaped top etc considering how many have searched for it without finding it. Waltz is not recorded as having sold massive amounts of gold, as one would expect to be the product of a massive mine, rather the most I have seen written about, witnessed getting sold at one time was a single burro load, which would have been enough work for one man working with hand tools to have mined out. Even that much would be hard work with hammer, chisels and pick!

I remember reading last night that he was seen packing out laden mules with helpers a few times, is that discredited?

ConceptualizedNetherlandr also wrote


The regulations inside the Wilderness Area are quite strict, however you can still use a probe

What are the restrictions on 'probe'?

to locate an open mine shaft without doing any digging, removing a stack of stones is not a wise idea as it is possible, even probable that they may be a mining claim corner monument or a trail marker, and it is illegal to alter or destroy a mining claim monument and not wise to alter a trail marker. However it is quite possible that the mine may well lie OUT-side of the official Wilderness Area boundaries,

I have seen a ton of maps lately, and the park website doesn't seem to offer up free maps, is there a link to a good map of the boundary?

you must decide for yourself of course and it is just my opinion but I think it is outside the wilderness area and outside the Wilderness Area you are bound by the far less restrictive rules for prospecting - in other words you can dig a prospect hole, you must fill it back in when finished and if you plan to do any large scale digging then permits will still be needed. However it is possible to get permits to dig in a Wilderness Area, however you will need solid evidence

Quartz with bits of gold should suffice that right? Or an actual vein in the cliff face. But then what happens if you find the mine? You can't get a claim, and cannot legally work it anyway, right? What happens to the gold?

to make your case that you have good reason to dig in a particular spot, and be prepared to deal with a long process and plenty of red tape for there are plenty of people whom do not want anyone doing any digging in the wilderness areas - not even for poop!


ConceptualizedNetherlandr also wrote


You need to sort out those clues to your own satisfaction - personally I do not rely on the clues too much nor think it a good idea for others to rely on the clues alone; I am sure there are plenty whom disagree with me but I believe the mine could be found in the same way it was first discovered, which was by the hard and tedious work of prospecting. The mineral deposit was eroded by nature over millenia, and traces of the ore had to have traveled down hill/down stream of the mine which is how it got discovered in the first place. One version of Waltz story, found in the Pioneer Interviews and as far as I know not online nor in any book, states that he used a drywasher to trace the gold back to the vein

but that wouldn't be allowed either right? No dry panning in the washes?

- no Peraltas, no massacre, no funnel shaped pit etc and yet still a remarkable story, which in my opinion is the true and correct one. However like the proverbial body part which was ought not refer to as this is a Family Oriented site, everyone has an opinion! All that said, I think a diligent and methodical search by prospecting methods only, will find the mine - and then after that is done, one can compare the numerous "clues" against the location to see which were true. It may be wise to keep them in mind while searching anyway, but I would not recommend hunting for the mine based on following out any set of clues. Many thousands of people have tried that method, and dug holes in places where they thought it fit the clues, which turned up NO gold and no mine; these old prospect pits and tunnels dot the Superstitions today and people occasionally find them and think they have found the Lost Dutchman mine - but NO GOLD as it was dug by other searchers when they found a spot that fit the clues.

Waltz was quoted as saying that unless you find the large cache near the mine, you can not find the mine, so apparently he felt that was the key link to finding the shaft. It is possible that in over 100 years time, just the action of rain washing away the dirt may have un-covered the cache of ore, or even the mine itself; also he stated that the vein actually cropped out in the canyon below the mine, which he also covered - this too may have become un-covered by time, and someone may walk across it tomorrow without digging a single shovel of dirt!

The trick it seems is to find the quartz vein in the valley wall. Then look above. Do forward any links you think I should read. Much appreciated

I hope this helps you amigo, if you would like a few suggestions for recommendations of books and/or articles, web sites to help you just say the word. If you decide to try your hand and go exploring in the Superstition mountains, I can guarantee that you will have an adventure of a lifetime and return with memories impossible to put a dollar value on, plus will have a great story to tell your grandchildren of the time you went hunting for the Lost Dutchman mine in a desert wilderness, even if you never find the mine. That said, I believe that someone WILL find that mine some day, perhaps by accident, and many treasure hunters will be amazed that they had walked right past it. Good luck and good hunting amigo, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

Sock coffee anyone?

Sock coffee? <--- not sure I want to know :P

Thinking out loud: If Waltz was covering up the mine never to return, why would he leave the cache behind?




Sounds like a fun trip. And judging from GE there are tons of places I'd like to see - never mind prospecting. I have never been to the area. How bad is the situation for snakes, scorpions, and all that stuff? Are we allowed to camp in the wilderness or does one have to bug out each night?

 

[Oroblanco]

Relevantchair wrote

Was that sock white once?

According to camp etiquette, we never ask that.


The funnel-shaped pit story really originates NOT with Waltz but the Ludy brothers, which somehow got mixed in with the Dutchman story, quite possibly as a cover story by Waltz himself.


ConceptualizedNetherlandr wrote

I sure hope you are cutting and pasting some of this.

Only your questions being answered, and if I do cut and paste, it will be in quotes; I try to remember to post the source where I borrowed it from as well, in order to keep with copyright laws.


ConceptualizedNetherlandr also wrote

I remember reading last night that he was seen packing out laden mules with helpers a few times, is that discredited?

Can you remember where you read this? Only a few trips to the mine are actually supported by witnesses, and the one instance of selling a "load" of ore was a single burro load - plus keep in mind that Waltz owned only ONE mule or burro for the last part of his life. He did not seem to be interested in mining to "get rich quick" rather to get enough money to keep himself comfortable. Some people find that to be un-believable in itself, thinking Waltz would have dug ALL the gold he could get as fast as possible to get rich quick or the whole thing is a lie.


ConceptualizedNetherlandr also wrote

What are the restrictions on 'probe'?

A simple metal rod type probe, has no restrictions that I am aware of. As you are simply pushing it into the earth by hand, no digging is actually involved and no more dirt is disturbed than the average scorpion moves in making a burrow. I do not know of any place that sells a good prospecting probe, but you can make one from a length of steel rod (smooth) just cut it to six feet or so (about two meters) weld a section on one end to make a "T" for a handle, and then grind the point at the bottom of the T to a rather blunt point (almost rounded). If you have never used one, DON'T ever pound it in, just push and twist, if you pound it in the thing can become terribly stuck and have to be dug out. In using it, just push into the ground where you think the mine may be covered - if it suddenly pushes through easily, this indicates a "void" or space under a cap, and it may pay to then dig.


ConceptualizedNetherlandr also wrote

I have seen a ton of maps lately, and the park website doesn't seem to offer up free maps, is there a link to a good map of the boundary?

I would recommend downloading these two reports, which both have pretty good maps showing the boundaries of the Wilderness Area:


Mineral resource potential of the Superstition Wilderness and contiguous roadless areas, Maricopa, Pinal, and Gila Counties, Arizona <USGS>
Mineral resource potential of the Superstition Wilderness and contiguous roadless areas, Maricopa, Pinal, and Gila Counties, Arizona


Mineral investigation of the Superstition Wilderness and contiguous RARE II Further Planning Areas
http://www.mines.az.gov/DigitalLibra...MLA_136-82.pdf


Also they contain a good amount of information on the mineralizations found during those studies.

ConceptualizedNetherlandr also wrote

Quartz with bits of gold should suffice that right? Or an actual vein in the cliff face. But then what happens if you find the mine? You can't get a claim, and cannot legally work it anyway, right? What happens to the gold?

Quartz with bits of gold will NOT suffice, the US Forest Rangers will say that is just float gold and doesn't prove that you found the mine; finding that actual VEIN and/or the mine itself however, would amount to the kind of solid proof you will need to proceed. It will take photos, GPS coordinates, and almost certainly a trip to the exact site with USFS rangers to show it to them in person, BEFORE they would even consider any kind of permit for mining. There are plenty of people who insist that it is 100% impossible to mine any gold in a wilderness area, however this is not true, however it is not going to be easy - IF the mine actually is inside of the wilderness area boundaries. It is quite possible that it is not inside the wilderness area. Anyway document everything in your quest, including your trail in to the mine, as this will help in the application process.

ConceptualizedNetherlandr also wrote

but that wouldn't be allowed either right? No dry panning in the washes?

Simple prospecting with hand tools is generally allowed in most Wilderness Areas but may not be in the Superstitions Wilderness Area. If you are going to search inside the wilderness area, you should check with the current regulations for that area before proceeding, and do not rely on what anyone tells you on an internet forum, including me when it comes to the USFS regulations. Outside the wilderness area, you do not have those restrictions.


ConceptualizedNetherlandr also wrote

The trick it seems is to find the quartz vein in the valley wall. Then look above. Do forward any links you think I should read. Much appreciated

I would highly recommend reading over this older thread:


http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/l...0-primer-hunting-lost-dutchman-gold-mine.html


You will find MANY useful and informative links in that thread, including to another forum which is almost entirely focused on the Lost Dutchman mine which has even more good info, although some of the posts are quite old so if you wish to ask a question it may take some time to track down the person.


ConceptualizedNetherlandr also wrote

Sock coffee? <--- not sure I want to know :P

Aaah, sock coffee is a camp secret of Mrs Oro's (my wife and partner) which separates the men from the boys, and the women from the girls; it is against camp etiquette to enquire into the details of the making of the coffee, just drink it hot, and don't look at the sock.


ConceptualizedNetherlandr also wrote

Thinking out loud: If Waltz was covering up the mine never to return, why would he leave the cache behind?

We can only guess as to his reasoning; considering that the whole area was still a wild country with plenty of outlaws, he may have wished to keep the cache as a 'safety deposit' in case of need, so that if he were robbed on the trail or at home, he would still have the large cache of gold he could fall back on without having to mine it out. Only Jacob Waltz knows the real answer however.


ConceptualizedNetherlandr also wrote

Sounds like a fun trip. And judging from GE there are tons of places I'd like to see - never mind prospecting. I have never been to the area. How bad is the situation for snakes, scorpions, and all that stuff? Are we allowed to camp in the wilderness or does one have to bug out each night?

Do NOT judge what to expect by looking at GE photos or even the older aerial photos, the terrain is extremely rugged, some have said it ranks as some of the most rugged on the entire planet. One fellow described it as "desert standing on end" and it had a LOT of vertical to it. Don't figure you will hike across it in a day - in fact if you are trying to estimate how far you will travel, measure your miles on a map and divide by three to get what distance you really will cover. Ask anyone whom has been there, it is rough country and not that easy even on the main trails.

In the warm months there are plenty of rattlesnakes and scorpions, and NO quick way to get medical help. So it is usually best to go in the cooler months of spring or fall, or winter if you don't mind getting snowed in and being very cold at night. There are many websites online with good advice on hiking in the Superstitions and it is dangerous but not THAT dangerous; remember thousands of people go hiking there every day, without getting hurt, lost, or killed. I recommend doing your due diligence, make sure you are prepared and don't be afraid to pack water for not all of the springs and water tanks (pools) can be depended on to have water at all times. It might be wise to get one of those SPOT devices, which can help the Search and Rescue people find you in a hurry if you get into serious trouble.


Better yet, partner up with someone who lives near the mountains and can go with you the first time, so that you will have an experienced partner whom can "show you the ropes" so to speak. There are some very good people among our members here, though they are not posting at the moment, and of course it would be wise to choose partners carefully too so as not to get hooked up with someone whom is not trustworthy. Not pointing fingers but even in our forum here there may be a few in that category, just be choosy.

Last thing - I sure don't have all the answers but I do recommend learning the basics of prospecting and what a gold vein and gold mine look like. Too many treasure hunters have gone hunting this lost mine without the slightest idea of what a gold mine looks like, nor how to identify gold even if they found it. There was a case where two young men went into the Superstitions and found a deposit of pyrite - fools gold - and proceeded to quarrel, ending with one killing the other, not realizing they were fighting over iron pyrites. Prospecting is not hard to learn and it a LOT of fun, and you can use those skills to find gold anywhere in the world not just hunting the Lost Dutchman mine or Wagoner's lost mine of rose quartz, which is also in the Superstitions and very probably inside of the Wilderness Area.


Good luck and good hunting amigo, I hope this has been of some help to you, and please send me a photo when you find that mine of Jacob Waltz! (I get almost as big a kick out of it when someone else makes a great find, as if I found it myself) I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

 

[Oroblanco]

PS one more thing but TAKE A GUN with you, even if you go in the cooler months. It is always better to have the gun and not need it, than to need it and not have it. Besides rattlesnakes there are javelinas, mountain lions, black bears and other wildlife which can be dangerous. Mountain lions in particular are something to watch out for, and of course the most dangerous animals other humans.

Also I forgot to answer your question - yes you can camp inside the Wilderness Area; they have regulations concerning camp fires (if the fire danger is high, no camp fires may be allowed, depends on weather conditions) and I do not know the current rule about human waste, formerly you simply dug a hole and covered it well when done, for a while they were requiring you to pack out human waste. So please check with the Forest Service for their current rules and regulations before heading in, and be sure to tell a trusted person whom is NOT going with you, where you plan to go, and when you plan to be out - and then be sure to contact that person immediately when you are back OUT so that they do not call the Search and Rescue for you.

 

[releventchair]

 

[ConceptualizedNetherlandr]

Thank you again oroblanco! The cut and paste thing was about so much typing. I hate typing. Thanks for undertaking the task

I have looked at over a thousand things about this in the past week, but I might be able to find the pack out thing if I bookmarked it or copied it to somewhere. The files are getting huge already OK, I looked through the bookmarks (loaded a bunch), couldn't find it. And it doesn't look like it is in my downloads either. I will speak up if I see it again. It could very well have been on this site.

It looks like there are so many neat geologic features to look at, it wouldn't even require finding anything to be a great experience.

How is the cell phone coverage out there? CDMA or 4G Internet?

 

[Somero]

How is the cell phone coverage out there? CDMA or 4G Internet?

Sketchy, best option is to set airplane mode otherwise batteries drain trying to locate signal. If your in a canyon the phone is useless, on top of a mountain you might get a bar or 2 depending on your phone and location.

 

[ConceptualizedNetherlandr]

Sketchy, best option is to set airplane mode otherwise batteries drain trying to locate signal. If your in a canyon the phone is useless, on top of a mountain you might get a bar or 2 depending on your phone and location.

Good news, at least you could call for help if you can get to the proper side of the hill to the nearest tower.

I was planning on pulling the battery all together, don't want the man GPS'n where I was hanging for so long at LDM

 

[Somero]

Good news, at least you could call for help if you can get to the proper side of the hill to the nearest tower.

I was planning on pulling the battery all together, don't want the man GPS'n where I was hanging for so long at LDM

Don't rely on the phone, if you get into a situation most likely you are going to be down low or may have fallen and climbing up a mountain may not be an option. Best bet like Oro recommends, let somebody know the general area you are in, also take a shiny silver blanket to signal or at least a small mirror.

You may have reviewed this thread http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/lost-dutchman-s-mine/387508-fun-g-e.html Just to get a rough idea of what the terrain is like.

 

[ConceptualizedNetherlandr]

Don't rely on the phone, if you get into a situation most likely you are going to be down low or may have fallen and climbing up a mountain may not be an option. Best bet like Oro recommends, let somebody know the general area you are in, also take a shiny silver blanket to signal or at least a small mirror.

You may have reviewed this thread http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/lost-dutchman-s-mine/387508-fun-g-e.html Just to get a rough idea of what the terrain is like.

I will have soon

I have been looking that place over with GE quite a bit lately .

Is a VHF likely to get a response out there?

 

[Somero]

I will have soon

I have been looking that place over with GE quite a bit lately .

Is a VHF likely to get a response out there?

Not sure about VHF, perhaps on of those fancy GPS units that somebody you can trust can monitor while your out and about. If your planning on going I would suggest waiting until this fall, were bouncing around the high 80's into the 90's this time of year.

 

[roadrunner]

The last time somero and I where out hiking,I was testing my cell phone just to see how good and where I could get signals.
Somero was there and we where up high on a couple of mountains, and at least once I pointed my phone towards phoenix, and towards Florence, and got no signal.
We where only 3-4 miles into the Supes also.
I use a service that uses Verizon, and At&t also.

Best thing as suggested, even for people out of state,let some of us know that live in the area,and just tell us about when you are going in,time out,and general area.
For instance, I live in the East end of the supes.
So,if you tell me you are going in North of Hwy 60, at Florence Junction, I know the area.
The,give me your phone number, and call when you come out.
A lot of us would go in with you probably.

 

[Oroblanco]

ConceptualizedNetherlandr - check out this device which will pinpoint your location if you get into trouble:
Amazon.com: SPOT 2 Satellite GPS Messenger - Orange: Electronics

They operate by satellite so are not dependent on cell towers, and if you fail to make it out in time, searchers will be able to find you quickly and relatively easily. Also some of them allow a certain number of messages (short like "I M OK") per month, so you can send a message and your GPS coordinates regularly. It is cheap insurance.

I do recommend hooking up with a friend whom lives nearby so you will have an experienced partner - there are some really good folks among the members here.

Now my next argument is how to talk you into joining us at the annual Dutch-hunters rendezvous in October, but the date is not set yet.

Good luck and good hunting amigos I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Hint for max security via phones, rent a 'sat' phone, ours is just about the same size as a handheld Garmin. A extremely light solar charger keeps it up to tops.

$1:00 a min us charges anywere in the world for us.

Don Jose de La Mancha