I have an ethical problem and I need help...

[bobinsd]

I have been given the location of an artifact in SoCal, specifically a piece of pottery. I only know that it is well hidden and only found by accident in a very remote location, but easily accessible on foot.

I don't know the laws in CA but it would be nice to experience the "thrill" of allowing the rest of the world to see this and perhaps return it to it's rightful owners, the descendants of the early American owner. Or perhaps just report the location to the local archy and let them do their thing. On the archy website, it warns that removal of artifacts is a crime. Is that correct?

If so, i would be concerned, but perhaps not enough that I would not go and " take a look" and take some pictures.

WHAT WOULD YOU DO?

Bob

 

[ivan salis]

go photograph it "in place" but do not remove it --look but don't touch if touching will get you in hot water . -- after you get your photos then tell the archies about it .

 

[Tom_in_CA]

It depends on the location. private property (with permission of course), city property, county, state, federal, etc.... And even within each of those, there can be multiple layers of concern/scrutiny. Like state property, for instance, can be anything as sublime as freeway right-of-ways, to out-right historic monument type stuff. So you gotta be more specific.

Since you are posting from CA, I can tell you that hunters here for decades (since the dawn of metal detectors) ALL THE TIME, on all the different levels of public lands, here in CA hunt and dig up things. Yup: state, city, county, and even federally owned places (abandoned military barracks, etc...), and don't give it a second thought. Ie.: no one cares. But yeah, if you wonder each time you/we find an old coin "I wonder if I can dig this?", then you might as well give it up, and stick to your own back yard

 

[Mackaydon]

Agreed (as to Ivan's comment): And put a ruler or something to show the scale of the object in the pic.
Yet, still don't disclose it's location without first totally understanding what will happen if you give the location to the arch.

 

[Noodle]

Your question was: "What would you do?"

I'd go find it.

What would I do after I found it?

Depends. Private property? Gov't property? Find out the laws.

But to answer your question, what would I do? I'd try and go find it.

One thing I've learned in my 125 years on this earth is: Everything you do is breaking a law. That law may be 75 or 200 years old, but there's something out there in writing that says you can't do it.

Do it anyway. Unless, of course, it's a modern law. No drinking and driving or anything like that. And don't spit on the sidewalks of the towns that said you couldn't back in 1910. Look it up. If you can't find a law against it, go for it. If you tick them off, a law will be on the books next week. In the meanwhile, go for it.

Noodle

 

[thrillathahunt]

I suspect that the person who told you the location did not want to deal with the negative ramifications that could result from the "rescuing" of this artifact.

 

[lostcauses]

Well at this point you have no verification the artifact exists. So step one, go and see if such is there. Do not mobve it, take photos and if possible gps the location. Please not any bones or disturbance in the area while doing this (meaning signs of digging or other such stuff).

Now how to handle if no sighns of damage to area, contact the archeologist in your area. If damage is around, and or bones that could be human, well if state again contact state archeologist, if federal contact the appropriate department.

Lets put it in the most simple terms I can from what you have stated. Just how much do you trust whomever gave you this info??

Are you being set up?? Be careful with such things. You do not want to find your self taking a rap for some ones dig.

It might be best to contact your state archeologist before you go and tell them what is going on. They may be able to advise you best.

 

[bobinsd]

The article is a nearly intact 16" high olla in a secluded natural spot between the border and I8 east of Jacumba. It is outside of Anza-Borrego where I know it is a crime even to MD. I have researched the local archy sites and believe it is from the early Kummeyay? tribe. That's all I know until I get to the site with my camera. I don't believe it was a sacred site, more like a hideout or shelter by the finder's description. He was "respectful" of the find and left it there. I may have done the same at the time, but in retrospect, what good is it doing where no one can enjoy it artism and functionality from 400-500 years ago.

By the way, this is the same area that the glyph of the sailboat was scratched into a large rock over looking Laguna Salada. (see desert galleon thread). My question is if I scratched the same rock to the same depth as the existing art, would I be able to estimate the age of the art based on the difference in color (shade), assuming that the desert varnish might be gradually effecting the old scratches. If not, how do the archies do it?

 

[Mackaydon]

Bob:
Contacting one of the founders of this site may be of assistance to you.
http://www.kumeyaay.info/
Let us know.
Don.......

 

[G.I.B.]

I agree with first locating it, then photographing everything concerning the artifact.

Then I would conduct more research into the item, to include all the laws surrounding this legal issue and item.

Should you subsequently decide to contact an archeologist, prior to revealing the location, I would insist on a signed contract stating that they WILL publicly display this artifact, and where. Or to whom it will be placed into the custody of (museum et al) on public display, and by what date.

I would not risk revealing the location of something precious to simply have it end up in some archeologist's private collection hidden from the public.

 

[Philvis]

It all just depends. If it is on state property, you have to be extra careful, and you might even want to contact the local tribe instead of an archaeologist. That will definitely get your brownie points with the tribe that could become useful at a later date. If it is private property and you have permission you mainly just need to make sure it isn't a grave good. Typically intact pots are grave goods. A good number of the southwestern Indians killed pots at the time of burial. If there is a hole in the bottom, that means it was grave good. Removing that is a federal no-no. A random intact pot may mean it really isn't so random and someone may have illegally dug it up from a grave and hid it for later retrieval. If there are other artifacts nearby, it very well could indicate a site of some kind and you may at that point want to contact an archaeologist. If there is cloak and dagger involved, typically that means somethign is fishy. If I were walking along and saw the pot on my own, I probably wouldn't think twice about picking it up as long as it wasn't associated with a burial. Just remember that if it feels like you are doing something wrong, you probably are. Worse case scenario is you just take some photos of it. The main thing you need to concern yourself with is that is isn't a grave good.

 

[steve71]

dont break any laws.is it private poropery?get permission i do believe you can hunt for artifacts on private property.take pictures and wright all info down on the piece you know and go get that sucker.

 

[Goodyguy]

It all just depends. If it is on state property, you have to be extra careful, and you might even want to contact the local tribe instead of an archaeologist. That will definitely get your brownie points with the tribe that could become useful at a later date. If it is private property and you have permission you mainly just need to make sure it isn't a grave good. Typically intact pots are grave goods. A good number of the southwestern Indians killed pots at the time of burial. If there is a hole in the bottom, that means it was grave good. Removing that is a federal no-no. A random intact pot may mean it really isn't so random and someone may have illegally dug it up from a grave and hid it for later retrieval. If there are other artifacts nearby, it very well could indicate a site of some kind and you may at that point want to contact an archaeologist. If there is cloak and dagger involved, typically that means something is fishy. If I were walking along and saw the pot on my own, I probably wouldn't think twice about picking it up as long as it wasn't associated with a burial. Just remember that if it feels like you are doing something wrong, you probably are. Worse case scenario is you just take some photos of it. The main thing you need to concern yourself with is that is isn't a grave good.

Best advice I have heard yet

GG~

 

[Jeffro]

If you have to ask- you probably already know it's wrong.

Inform the rightful owners of it's whereabouts and be done with it.

 

[ivan salis]

do whats legal and ethical -- and you'll have no problems ---

but then in most cases you will not be doing much of anything but working and going home .(hard to get in trouble that way)--seems like anything thats fun to do , where you might make a buck or two without working yourself to death or where uncle sugar doesn't have his hand on a part of it -- is illegal to do these days.

 

[Philvis]

Plehbah,
Thanks for the mini lesson. It is always nice to get more first hand info from folks!

 

[Treasure finder]

I live in So Cal and know an archealogist that would be willing to go take a look and
some pictures. That way you could establish some finder's rights without removing it
and get to be a hero without liability. Maybe you could get on a archealogic dig and
help out etc. Or maybe you could get owner ship rights, but first I would certainly take
a look, and I would certainly be willing to take a hike with you. At the very least we
would all like to see some pix.
Rich

 

[PAPPYGOL]

hey, if you dont know its an artifact. it not against the law to take it!

 

[lostcauses]

Ignorance is not an excuse to violate law.

hey, if you dont know its an artifact. it not against the law to take it!

 

[goldeagle]

I WOULD CHECK IT OUT,THIS government sucks to high heaven,the laws where suppose to be we the people now its the other way around its we the gov. they make all the rules while robbing us blind. I BET if the gov. could make money off old artifacts it would then be federal law must be handed over to government.f$@kthem