Im confused...How does one get permission?

[turtlefoot13]

I'm confused...How does one get permission?

I am going to jump in with both feet on this one but PLEASE don't think that I am griping or complaining. I am honestly confused.

How does one get permission to hunt on public lands? I have read on this forum, other forums, blogs and personal websites about people hunting on public lands. I have read about:

people cellar hole hunting in state parks

hunting old home sites off of abandoned mountain roads

researching and finding a lost town site "in the forest" and hitting it for coins and relics

getting some 19th century maps and locating old sites, driving to the most promising sites then parking their cars, getting their gear and "going for it"

having to park their cars on the forest road and walking back to the site they want to MD

hitting the ATV trails in the forest as some of them were forest roads at one time

parking their car, walking the rr tracks a long distance and then cutting into the woods to look for relics

taking a drive in the mountains in hopes of finding a good spot, finding one, parking the car "right on the road" and finding a large copper in less than five minutes.

etc...

Okay, I am sure that some of these may be private property with permission but I know that all of them are not. I am guessing that I am totally missing something or misunderstanding something. If people are posting their names and photos of their finds and themselves, I am guessing that they are not looting or hunting without permission. In the state that I live in MD'ing in state parks is by permit only and at selected sand beaches only. National Forest is allowed but only at established campgrounds/picnic areas with personal permission from the district ranger. If ANYTHING historic is found, digging must immediately stop and the item and location given to the ranger. National Park System land in my state - OFF LIMITS!

How does one get permission to hunt cellar holes at state parks or abandoned town sites in the forest? How does one get permission to hunt a colonial site near a famous mountain hiking trail when the area that is being talked about is on land under control of the BLM?

I have done my homework and have located several promising spots. All but one are on public land (Federal and State lands). I will not hunt without the proper permission and I just need to know how to go about getting it.

Please don't take this the wrong way. I am willing to do the research to find the spots and do the appropraite work to the the permits and permission. I just don't know the proper channels to go through.

Thanks for listening and I appreciate any help that ANYONE can possibly give me.

Thanks,
Doug

 

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[Ricky1601 aka pull tab king]

Re: I'm confused...How does one get permission?

I'm not sure about where you live but it's my understanding that BLM land is open for MDing. at least it is here in Ca. Some state land is ok and others is not. just have to ask the rangers for that particular area. most federal land is off limits. hope this helps some and hh.

 

[Nicksan]

Re: I'm confused...How does one get permission?

State parks and National parks are off limits to all Digging or any Harrassment of the natural habitat.
It is ok to detect on National forest land but you also cannot dig, take anything out of or disturb the natural habitat, If there is a NFS station near you, I would go ahead and ask a Ranger, and if you get permission then use that as authorization if anyone harrasses you.
As badly written and fragmented as our laws are, Unfortunately I have a feeling that it would depend on the area of the country you are in and the rangers on site.

Heres a link to something I found recently.

http://www.fs.fed.us/r9/cnnf/rec/heritage/metal_detectors.html

According to the link it looks as if its ok to detect on NF land as long as your not on Historic, Prehistoric or archeaolgical land or sites.

 

[jeff of pa]

Re: I'm confused...How does one get permission?

Not all state Parks are off Limits
or need Permission

http://www.fmdac.org/parks/parks.htm

Depends on your State & The Rangers

There is State Parks & There is State owned Public Land
Notice the word "Public"

some states consider public to mean that.
some consider public to mean government.

Best thing I Can tell you is Know your Area
& Go with your Concience.

I Have some areas I Never Ask. Simply because
I Know it isn't Necessry. I Have other areas
I Never hunt because I Got a Concience &
either Think I'll hear no Or Havn't figured out
who to ask. I Also have areas I Got permission for
30 or so Years ago, Things may have changed
But I Don't rock the Boat by asking again.

Most "Public" Land No signs means No Problem to me.
But I Don't do Major Excavation Either.
Or detect around Crowds using the place.

Abandond Homes
I Go on a Case by Case Decision
& Accept Permission From
Postal Workers, Police, Firemen,
Bar room Workers, Construction People,
Road Workers, Neighbors, Persons walking By,
Owner, Renter, Leaser, Park Patron, Could be the
Village Peoples Indian chief
Whoever is most Handy
and willing to say "Go for it" at the Time.
Of course I'm talking "MY" Area.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Re: I'm confused...How does one get permission?

Doug, what makes you think you "need permission" on public land, to begin with? Would you ask "permission" to fly a frisbee, or skip stones on the pond?

If it's not specifically dis-allowed wherever your at, then why would one need permission? On city and county levels, for instance, rarely is there ever things that address it. Oh sure, you might find someone .... if you asked around long enough, to morph something else to apply (like "don't disturb the earthworms" or cultural heritage nonsense), but the reality is, probably no one cares or notices (till you ask).

Even the FMDAC link that Jeff gives (for state level parks/land) is nothing more than some desk-bound clerk, in each of the 50 states, receiving an inquiry letter "is metal detecting allowed?" And often time they just say "no" or "inquire at each kiosk", etc.. to make things simple, even without specific citation. In CA, for instance, despite the ominous sounding wording, I know many state parks where you can detect till you're blue in the face, and no one cares. You wouldn't think that by reading the FMDAC wording on CA.

Here is a thread that goes much deeper into the psychology of this topic:

http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,249049.0.html

 

[TORRERO]

Re: I'm confused...How does one get permission?

My opinion is that a lot of people out there probably do what they want to do...
Without knowing if its ok or not...
What's that old saying ? .....
"Its easier to ask forgiveness than it is to ask permission"
Its well known that you can't have a park ranger in every acre of woods all the time.
and with millions of acres of woods the odds are very small of being caught you know..
If someone "dropped you off" and then came back for you at a certain time...
We all know this type of thing goes on, but we don't know who does it.
I admit that in the past I have hunted places that permission for me being there certainly would
have been questionable at best...
(not national park land) but like hunting open fields at night, not knowing who owned the fields,
stopping and hunting old Churches without knowing the pastors..
Stop and hunting old schools without knowing the laws of the area I am in...

 

[Nicksan]

Re: I'm confused...How does one get permission?

Theres many places I would like to hunt here in the National forests of So. Cal. but way back when I was into mountain biking, In the Angeles National forest, I witnessed a volunteer ranger literally yelling at some people that were picking flowers, she told them you cannot pick flowers, take pine cones or anything from National Forest land. I always think back to that and think, I wonder what would happen if that same
" VOLUNTEER " found me detecting, LOL.
I just think its a big risk, because if you dont ask and run into one of these Nazis, you might get your equipment confiscated or worse.

This from the California state park regulations rules out any digging, therefore theres no point in detecting:
§ 4307. Geological Features.

(a) No person shall destroy, disturb, mutilate, or remove earth, sand, gravel, oil, minerals, rocks, paleontological features, or features of caves.

(b) Rockhounding may be permitted as defined in Section 4301(v).

 

[TORRERO]

Re: I'm confused...How does one get permission?

Here is a thread that goes much deeper into the psychology of this topic:

http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,249049.0.html

I was reading this thread and remembered a time I was in Georgia...
traveling through and came accross a small town with the government center office in the middle,
and a large old looking park next to it...
it was a Friday afternoon, and the Gov, office was closing in 1 hour..
I wanted to hunt the park, it was obviose open puplic space, but I saw Highway Patrols around the
office, and decided to ask...
The guy I asked said he did not know.. but I could go inside the Gov, building to ask...
I went in and the secretary did not know...
and the police there did not know...
and the city councel people did not know... finally it went to top guy there from the town councel and after an hour I got my anwer... NO....
sorry you can't do that here...
my question of course is, If I had done it anyway would any of these guys said anything about it ? And I wonder how many other detectorists had hunted this in the past without problems...

 

[jeff of pa]

Re: I'm confused...How does one get permission?

Oh sure, you might find someone .... if you asked around long enough, to morph something else to apply (like "don't disturb the earthworms" or cultural heritage nonsense), but the reality is, probably no one cares or notices (till you ask).

Absolutely.

An Example Most Places have a sign No Soliciting without Permit.

Hitch Hikeing is not Illegal in most areas.
However I Know of few Police who
charge you with Soliciting a ride
to charge you.

See this Definition

to seek for (something) by entreaty, earnest or respectful request, formal application, etc.: He solicited aid from the minister.

So asking Permission to detect is "Soliciting" permission
to Hunt Public places.

Morph This

 

[jeff of pa]

Re: I'm confused...How does one get permission?

Oh sure, you might find someone .... if you asked around long enough, to morph something else to apply (like "don't disturb the earthworms" or cultural heritage nonsense), but the reality is, probably no one cares or notices (till you ask).

Absolutely.

An Example Most Places have a sign No Soliciting without Permit.

Hitch Hikeing is not Illegal in most areas.
However I Know of few Police who
charge you with Soliciting a ride
to charge you.

See this Definition

to seek for (something) by entreaty, earnest or respectful request, formal application, etc.: He solicited aid from the minister.

So asking Permission to detect is "Soliciting" permission
to Hunt Public places.

Morph This

Sorry Definition
of PUBLIC added

open to all persons:maintained at the public
expense and under public control:
for the community as a whole:

 

[turtlefoot13]

Re: I'm confused...How does one get permission?

First off, thanks for all of the input.

You asked a fair question Tom. "Why do I think I need permission on public land?" Locally, I am not too worried about it. I have hunted a couple of tot lots, parks and schools in my area. I have only asked permission for one of those parks because it has a sign, at the entrance, of what is allowed in that park and MD'ing was not on it. It also stated permission is required for any other uses of this park. Asked, got it, no problem. I was followed by one city employee once at one park for about 15 minutes. He looked at my plugs and went on his way. That has been the extent of my local public land experience.

I can count on one hand, how many hours in 2009 that I hit tot lots or went coinshooting. I am a relic hunter. That is my passion. I am trying to "broaden my horizons" on this though. I have two coin goals for 2010. One is an IH cent and the other is something silver. I am planning on trying to learn the in's and out's of coinshooting at some of the campgrounds in my area. Okay...I am off topic, Sorry.

With relic hunting being my passion, I would love to hunt for them where they are. I have found an old town site that I would love to hunt. This old town site was pushing 2,000 people in the early 1870's It is totally gone now. No building foundations, nothing. It is in the National Forest though. I know, from what I have read on one person's blog, that he found a similar site in the National Forest and hunted it with great success.

I would also love to hunt around some old buildings that I located on state lands for relics. These are abandoned, falling down buildings that are totally overgrown. They are not at some manicured park or historic tourist site (just on public hunting/fishing land). I don't want to hunt it without permission though because I figure I will end up getting accused of looting/vandalizing a historic site and then have to deal with the everything that follows. I was told once "If someone lived there, fought there or did business there, it is a historic site."

I guess my problem is, from what I have read, it seems to be against the law to remove relics from any site that is on public land and basically would be considered looting or violating the ARPA. I am also concerned about detecting on one established camp site in the National Forest because it is sight of where a logging camp used to be.

I know what I have seen from posts virtually all over the web, that there are wonderful relics being recovered on public lands and seemingly being done totally within the law. I just was figuring that there was some government permit or form that I was missing to be able to do the same in my area.

I have been talking to some NFS people in my state for several weeks that are going the extra mile trying to help me get the proper permission to hunt some areas in the National Forest that are not established campsites but known campsites. I figure that would be a good place for me to start and a good place to learn better coinshooting techniques and maybe, just maybe, find my first silver coin.

Once again, I am sorry if it sounds like I am ranting as I don't mean it to be. I just keep hitting brick walls and finding vaguely written state laws. I figure I could end up harming the hobby if I don't go through the proper channels to hunt the places that I want to hunt.

Thanks again for all of the input.

Doug

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Re: I'm confused...How does one get permission?

Doug, this hobby is .... unfortunately ....... a lot like nose-picking: If you just do it discreetly, no one cares or notices. But if you ask people "can I pick my nose?", they will start watching you and say "no".

You admit yourself that you are running into vague wording, and THEN going steps further, to get them clarified. Ie.: to make sure those vague things can't be morphed to apply to md'ing. You say that to do otherwise might "harm the hobby". But actually, the opposite is true: Quite often it's the persons going around asking for permission, sanction, clarification, etc... that end up getting places put off-limits, because they found someone to decide the vague things mean "no". And now that a place is effectively off-limits, who do you think did the dis-service to their hobby in these cases? Those that just went? Or those that were the squeeky wheel?

For example, in the link I gave: If I were to ask enough people, far enough up the chain of command on our beaches "can I metal detect?" and subsequently got a "no", what do you think will happen the next time that bureaucrat is passing by the beach, and sees OTHER md'rs?? They'll remember the earlier inquiry, and start booting people!

Now yes, if you have an obvious historical federal monument, or clear wording "no metal detecting", then this wouldn't apply. But for pete's sake, in the middle of nowhere in a forest?? Besides you're looking for the boyscout ring you lost when you were a kid, right? Or modern change, not relics, etc... right?

Unless a place has specific wording, I would always assume I'm ok, till told otherwise. I will not wonder if the other stuff (about vegetation, altering geologic features, etc...) can be morphed to apply to md'ing. Because to think or wonder & ask for clarification on things like that, you will have already lost the battle, before you even start. Because to even ask, merely implies that something is wrong, or inherently evil enough with your hobby, that you had to ask to begin with (ie.: why would you ask, unless it is inherently damaging, harmful, etc...?) And with such inference in mind, you will merely dictate the answer to your question from some deskbound bureaucrat, who probably never gave the matter thought before (like in Torrero's example..... I had to chuckle at that )

And yes, you, and many others will have examples of cities, counties, etc... where they "got permission", and thus, for them, this proves the opinion that permission was therefore "needed" (as evidenced by the desk clerk "granting" it, means it must have been necessary to get permission, lest they wouldn't have had the power to "grant it"). To this I would answer that anyone who proudly proclaims that they got permission from such & such public entity, merely means they didn't go high enough up the ladder. The clerk didn't have the right mental image. For example: I can go to the same exact clerk, and say "don't you think this runs afoul of ARPA to let Joe-Blow run havock all over our parks?" Or "what if that guy finds an indian bone, and indians sue the city??" or "why is it fair that he enriches himself at the city's expense, stealing all our lost jewelry that should go through proper lost & found channels?" And on and on I could go, and get your "permission" just as quickly revoked.

As for confiscations, arrests, tickets, etc... (the mantra brought up whenever this "just go" opinion is floated), I would suggest that the only time you hear about such things, is people night sneaking obvious historic monuments, guys making a mess who couldn't take a warning, etc.... If someone can point out where it happened in an innocuous sand box, or in the middle of a remote forest, or other such un-posted sites, I'd love to hear it.

Nicksan: I too have had some run-ins with self-appointed nature trail volunteer group type people (who patrol the nature preserve seashore park here), because when they saw we were digging a beach pit (to reach bedrock where we intended to sift for coins). When they saw we weren't trying to illegally collect shell-fish, they then took the tactic of the cultural heritage also being protected, blah blah blah. We just turned it around as a joke, and I pointed at my friend and said "He's on parole. I'm his parole agent. He's rotating the sand on the beach as a public service". The Sierra club do-gooders just shook their heads and walked away And as for your CA park's rule citation, I notice it doesn't specifically say md'ing, so what's the point

 

[jeff of pa]

Re: I'm confused...How does one get permission?

Tom Made some good points Here
Which Brought up a Memory.

Several Years ago I Was Hunting Valley View Park
when 3 Young Cops pulled in to Have their Lunch.

Of course I Kept Hunting I Was in a Community Churches
Owned Public Park
& The Grounds keepers always were Friendly.

all of a sudden one cop Walked down To me,
I Nodded Hi & The First words out his Mouth
were "Did you Hear about the
New Ordinance ?"

First thing out of My mouth Was,
No, A woman lost her Ring here Last weekend
& I figured I'd Look for it.

He turned & Yelled to the others
He's looking for a Lost Ring.

We discussed the Stuff I Dug already
& How hard it would Be to Find it without
Knowing where to look & He left.

Now Whether he was going to show off to his Cop Buddies,
Or was going to say the New Ordinance means
I Gotta share with them I don't know.
But I'm Sure IF I Snapped at Him to Assert My
Rights, Things would have
went Sour.

Back in the 80's I Went to
a Ghost town, & was Hunting
without Permission (It was around
here & the '80's of course) but the Grounds Keeper came
& Told me it was Private Property, Complained
a litttle about People destroying Things
& I Kept nodding, Smiling & Talking
about what I Was doing.
Before he Left he Pointed out another Spot
in town to search. Again "I Have rights Too"
would have gotten me Thrown off
Or arrested.

Friendly has Always been the way to Go
when Confronted.

 

[TORRERO]

Re: I'm confused...How does one get permission?

Friendly has Always been the way to Go
when Confronted.

I completly agree with this statement !
after 25 years hunting, no mater where you find yourself, never ! never ! be confrontational with someone who walks up on you.
Me and a buddy were hunting a church yard in a small town near here when this guy came running over all huff and said "what are you doing here" you can't do that here you have to leave"
in an angry way, ... we said we were sorry and we were just looking for a few coins and stuff
and did not mean any harm to him or his church,
so he calmed down and we talked for a few minutes and then he said we could continue
and it was no big deal after all....

I used to tell my X-wife and Girlfriends...
If we are out hunting and someone approuches us,
"Smile real big and act really friendly and nice"
(I always like having a woman with me or a child as it tends to calm people who might otherwise be upset)

 

[Bum Luck]

Re: I'm confused...How does one get permission?

Until last year, Wisconsinites could merely ask to hunt at a state park; I've done it. Found a few pennies, but it beat sunbathing.

Some County parks need permission, some don't.

Sigh - it used to be no big deal.