Im getting laid off!

[Doitlaynstyle]

I'm getting laid off!

This is great news. My company is hitting a short lull in work and it couldn't come at a better time. Mining season is in full swing and I think I found a claim to buy into. My RV is all period for the season because of the two trips I've taken in it this year and the one I'm leaving for today. This layoff will give me the chance to see if I can make it as a full time miner. So cool! If this works out and I'm able to pull enough gold I'll be buying my own claim and running full time which means I won't have to work anymore. Awesome right? If you had the chance what would you do? Find another job or chase a dream?

 

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[AzViper]

AZviper, Well is see good and bad issue's with the new Fee's that have to be paid on each claim.

First off let me ask, does your Club really need 193 20 acer claims? I mean that seems like a lot. How many members are in the Club?

The Bad is see is the BLM has more powers(very bad) and more paper work that they already can't keep up with.

The good is see is that there will no longer be people or groups hoarding large number's of claims and not working them. If your claim has gold on it, it should be pretty easy to work it to come up with the $140 yearly fee. JMO. If it doesn't get worked then, oh well you need to find the money somewhere.

Obviously you did not understand what I said. Our club had 24 claims of which the club was paying $3300.00 per year. Once the claims were broken up these 24 claims are now 193 claims. So the club is having to find the best gold in all these claim to file for 24 claims of 20 acres each. Bottom line we have the same about of claims but less land to work. The club has 500 plus members.

 

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[Clay Diggins]

So is a mineral survey the only way to establish and quantify the necessary value? Or can our fellow miner pay some taxes and plop down a Tupperware full of gold on the lead geologists desk and be on his way.. (relatively speaking)....and as far as a p.o.o how about if that was only required on a "PERFECTED" claim I realize that is not the case but, sheese it would help stream line everything and keep people from getting burned in the wallet. What if you have two claims? It takes three years to effectively prospect both and show your valuable discovery. Couldn't some one come along and challenge the validity if they knew you were just prospecting. I realize that involves court. But, is this a situation that comes up often? Are you not charged with making a valuable discovery before you even file? So, how is that not inferred? So, perfecting is essentially proving the discovery....and prudence?? I believe every thing Clay says he knows his stuff. Yet it makes things foggier for me at this point. Mainly because we are discussing law and theory....in a situation with so many variables. What do you think the percentage of "Perfected" vs. " Un-Perfected " claims is. I don't believe I have ever talked to anyone who actually has one other than a few who were patented. They were really old lode claims that had been patented for decades. Thank you very much for bringing this up Clay....Best of luck Layne it sounds like a good and safe situation as far as getting involved in an existing claim. I hope Clays info keeps you away from any misfortune.

Nothing theoretical about proving your deposit to be valuable Goldwasher. Mineral surveys do not prove your deposit to be valuable but they are a big step to perfecting your claim for patent. There are many perfected claims. The mining companies put out a lot of time and money to perfect their claims before they even start the process of mining.

The courts have consistently ruled that "discovery" work can take place after locating the claim. How long do you have to prove your discovery? Well forever, if the land your claim is located on is not withdrawn for a National Park, Wilderness, National Monument, Wild River or a few other types of withdrawal. In those limited cases you must stop your discovery work and prove your claim from the evidence you have already collected in your discovery work. The BLM is required to bring a mineral challenge in those cases and if you are not prepared with solid evidence of a valuable mineral deposit your claim will probably be declared void.

So what is "proof" of a valuable mineral deposit? Miners aren't without guidance there either. The basic requirements to be met are the "Prudent man" rule and the "Marketability test". These are not separate rules nor are they new. The "Marketability test" is a further refinement of the "Prudent man" rule.

The prudent man rule states that:

Where minerals have been found, and the evidence is of such a character that a person of ordinary prudence would be justified in the further expenditure of his labor and means, with a reasonable prospect of success, in developing a valuable mine, the requirements of the law have been met.

There is no requirement in the prudent man rule that the locator be a professional miner or an expert but a simple belief that they have "a reasonable prospect of success" is not enough. There must be hard evidence that there is a good enough deposit to make the effort worthwhile. Simply finding gold, even in quantity, does not meet the prudent man rule. A bucket of nuggets is no proof of a valuable deposit in itself.

This is where the "Marketability test" comes in.

The marketability rule states:

To qualify as valuable mineral deposit it must be shown that the mineral may be extracted, removed and marketed at a profit.

To meet these standards it will be necessary to not only determine the probable extent and value of the gold in the deposit but also determine the expense of extracting, processing, transporting, refining and selling the gold. Since valuable minerals fluctuate in market price and labor, fuel, equipment and services also change over time a marginal deposit is always in danger of slipping below the standard.

There is no requirement in law that your claim must be mined. You simply must show hard evidence that you could mine it at a profit. If you do mine and don't achieve a profit it doesn't mean your claim is void.

Claims that can't be proven to contain a valuable mineral deposit are not invalidated automatically unless they are in one of the special withdrawal challenges. Locations that can not prove a valuable mineral deposit by these standards can not be patented and the claimant only retains a possessory right against other prospectors. Unproven claims can not be awarded a "takings" judgement or be treated as if the title to them is "as good as patent".

The United States has never given away valuable minerals for free. It has always been the duty of the mineral claimant to prove his discovery with his own money, labor and knowledge. Many claims never "pan out" to be valuable. The price a prospector pays in effort and experience to find and prove a truly valuable deposit is often very high. There is no free lunch. Now I hope you understand a little better how much a proven mineral deposit really costs.

Good luck in your prospecting. There are still fortunes to be found in this rich land of ours but it's rarely as simple as putting up some stakes. Work hard and work smart and you can succeed. There is still an opportunity to make the big strike in this land. I hope every one of you can find that buried treasure.

Heavy Pans

 

[TAKODA]

Doin It,
I've been limited to email as I only have a connection when I'm at the local library so I've only just come in on this thread.

Your Question: What would you do if you had the chance to go prospecting for a long time (something close to this)? I had that chance in 2011 and was out in the hills for three months. At that time the snow was still in the NorCal mountains till mid July so I was limited. With the timing you have right now it would be a no brainer for me, I'd GO! However, I caution you to pinch penny's and be wise about taking Good Care of yourself as in no injuries even if it means you pass on a super spot.

Harbor freight offers an 8000 lb capacity cable hoist (their lighter ones are not worth purchasing) and it does wonders when coupled with a length of chain, some cable with hooks on each end and a set of tire chains used one at a time as a boulder bra. A snatch block and a right angle turnbuckle(might not be the correct name for it) from a place like Tractor Supply is a good investment to add to the 8000 lb capacity hoist.

The best of success to you and your adventure as you are going on an adventure! 63bkpkr

Hey 63 . You in some different sticks out there ain't ya . How you like'n south Texas ?

Hope all is well .

 

[russau]

Given todays attitude from our gubermint agencys and the wacoenviromentalists, its a smart thing to get your own claim now so that youll have a place to dredge,prospect,etc in the future years. its getting harder to find places to go without being harasd/over regulated/messed with/lied to by some young know-it-all that don't know sqwat about the laws!

 

[pacog]

Obviously you did not understand what I said. Our club had 24 claims of which the club was paying $3300.00 per year. Once the claims were broken up these 24 claims are now 193 claims. So the club is having to find the best gold in all these claim to file for 24 claims of 20 acres each. Bottom line we have the same about of claims but less land to work. The club has 500 plus members.

I completely understood what you were saying. An association of 8 Claims is 8 claims, not 1. You only had to pay fee's for 1 claim if you grouped them together. But you still have to have 8 separate names on the paper work, not just 1 persons. This is for unpatented claims of course.

Like I said before there are many people and groups out there Hoarding up Claims in the best gold area's and not working them. So now this give's the opportunity for Hundred's if not thousand's of people who are looking for good ground to work and prospect and maybe file a claim if they choose to.

 

[Clay Diggins]

I think you are making a false assumption pacog. There are many areas open to claim even in the most desirable areas.

A few examples:
Probably the most "claimed up" area we have ever seen was Rich Hill in Arizona. We were told by dozens of people "in the know" that the entire area had been claimed up for more than 100 years. When we released that map to the public there were 11 claims made right on Rich Hill itself within a month. There are still unclaimed areas on that famous gold deposit even five years since we revealed the facts about claims there. When we released our North Fork of the American River map a good portion of the famous Iowa Hill tertiary gravels were still unclaimed. Less than 10% of the land open to location has been claimed even today in that famous gold region. The list goes on and on.

What you refer to as "hoarding" is really a misperception on your part. There are many claims that are worked only seasonally or are scheduled for future development. If every claim was immediately mined out by the claimants I'm guessing you would see that as a lost opportunity also?

To accuse an active prospecting club of "hoarding" or not working claims is a pretty far stretch by any standard.

If you would like a good claim in a known producing area do your research and you will find that those are still available and open to claim. If you prefer to find a real deposit on your own you will find there are millions of acres of good mineral ground just waiting to be discovered. There is no need to be jealous of what your neighbor has when often the land right next to the claim you covet is free and open to exploration and location.

 

[Reed Lukens]

I would definitely check with the claim owner about using a trackhoe because the DFW requires a poo even for test holes or anything when you are using machinery. Using a tractor maybe ok with the claim owner right now but if he doesn't have everything already set up with the forest service for the use of machinery then he will be taking the risk. Here is a quote from a thread on this subject from another forum.
"I can assure anyone, if you intend to excavate 20 or 30 sample trenches 6 ft deep with a backhoe or excavator on National Forest lands, the District Ranger (Authorized Officer) will insist a Plan of Operation is required. If you don’t have an approved POO in hand. If caught trenching with a backhoe, 99% of the time, you will be issued a very nasty expensive citation & told to stop. If you refuse to stop, you can become subject to immediate arrest."

And here is the article

USFS NOI shallow residual-eluvial placer sampling - Gold Prospecting Forum - Nugget Shooter Forums

 

[Clay Diggins]

I'm guessing you didn't read the whole thread there Reed?

The issue was an NOI - not a POO (Plan of Operation). The person who offered the Notice of Intent letter to the Forest Service was approved without further conditions, bond, plan of operations or time limit. Please note that there was no money required and the DFW had nothing to do with the matter at all.

Elder Miner proved his own assumption to be wrong. There was no mining plan required under those circumstances. You should be aware that a Notice of Intent like the one offered by Elder Miner is not a required action under the law. The only time a Notice should be offered by the miner is when he is unsure whether his mining actions would be create an undue or unnecessary surface disturbance. Elder Miner was assured by the Forest Service that his sampling plan would not cause such a surface disturbance and that no further regulation is needed in that circumstance.

If Elder Miner had been sure his sampling action would not cause undue or unnecessary surface disturbance there would be no requirement that he notify the Forest Service surface managers of his intended sampling actions. In the future Elder Miner can reliably assume that similar sampling can be done there with no need to inform the surface management agency.

There is a huge difference between sampling a few hundred yards on a placer claim and mining a discovered placer. Relying on the use of motorized earth moving equipment as the trigger for regulation shows a misunderstanding of the basis of surface management regulation. Miners have a right to move dirt, sample and dig as needed in the least damaging way possible under the mining methods most appropriate to the deposit and conditions. Elder Miner is an experienced placer miner but, as he demonstrated in that thread, he overestimated his obligations to limit surface disturbance under the law.

 

[pacog]

Clay, I am sure there are many good area's in certain state's and hopefully there will still be some when I am ready to stake a claim.

I am all for active Clubs having multiple claims. They have enough member's who actually mine and prospect to justify it. I did not accuse any particular club or person. Read my post again I said people and groups. But hoarding does happen, to say it does not happen is just denying that it does happen. There is No misperception on my part. I am not accusing everyone of doing this. But it does happen.

The new fee structure just makes it so people or groups actually have to go out and work their claims to pay for the fee's with the gold found. Or figure out anther way to pay the fee's or loose the claim.

No one is telling Azviper's club that they can't keep their current claims. The just need to pay the proper fee's or loose some of the claims.

 

[Reed Lukens]

I'm guessing you didn't read the whole thread there Reed?
Relying on the use of motorized earth moving equipment as the trigger for regulation shows a misunderstanding of the basis of surface management regulation. Miners have a right to move dirt, sample and dig as needed in the least damaging way possible under the mining methods most appropriate to the deposit and conditions. Elder Miner is an experienced placer miner but, as he demonstrated in that thread, he overestimated his obligations to limit surface disturbance under the law.

I did read it, thought I read it all along with all of the replies but I based my answer on personal experience with the DFW here in Yuba County. Testing with a tractor can bring on all kinds of harassment depending on if the DFW agent is looking to cause trouble in the first place. I had a rogue agent attempt to shut us down here a few years ago. He tried taking our equipment but I said no and being that he was from a different county and not operating with our local office here in Camptonville, he was read the riot act by them after my phone call to my rep. All in all my equipment would have been stolen had I not been there to stop him. Then after the dredge ban they started in on asking for a poo because I also used machinery to sample a small area. People here have had tractors stolen and then found later after having been sold at lien sales by the DFW. When a stolen tractor is found after having been sold by the DFW in this way, the Sheriffs office has it's hands tied and the new owner is the new legal owner of your equipment. That happened to my neighbor when he found his stolen grader on a trailer in Colfax. I was told that I can sample by hand all that I want but a tractor is a different story. Being that this is someone else's claim, I would want to make sure that I didn't cause the owner any liability and there may already be bonds, poo's, etc in place and being used.

Clay can you send me a link to or tell me the size of an area that I can test with a tractor? I have an area that I want to open up but I need an idea on the legal hole size with a tractor. I'll be digging 12 feet to bedrock on average and would like to open it up 40'x 100' for an ample test which would give me maybe 6' x 40' with a safe taper on all sides and a driveable grade to the bottom. Then if it pays consistently I can continue opening and back filling for around 200+ yards. This will be my first try at legally opening up a test hole so I really want to read all of the rules and see what I can legally do without a poo. Then I will have a few trees to remove in the other area and I can get that signed off by my rep who has already told me that he will sign off on any trees that I need to take out at any of my operations but then I will need a poo for that according to him. Obviously I would rather not have to file a poo there unless it is legally deemed necessary.

 

[timberjack]

I got this book for 15 dollars from the. Redding, california b.l.m. office. It about an inch and a half thick and covers one heck of a lot. Laws all referanced, been reading for the last 2 weeks...if you want to know laws they are at your fingertips.. i just called them up ordered over the phone and they mailed it along with a bunch of free intel they had on hand

 

[KiddoTheMiner]

btw how many guys do you have on your op and what equipment are you going to use
is it you and a dredge
or 4 other guys with excavators

 

[Clay Diggins]

Clay can you send me a link to or tell me the size of an area that I can test with a tractor? I have an area that I want to open up but I need an idea on the legal hole size with a tractor. I'll be digging 12 feet to bedrock on average and would like to open it up 40'x 100' for an ample test which would give me maybe 6' x 40' with a safe taper on all sides and a driveable grade to the bottom. Then if it pays consistently I can continue opening and back filling for around 200+ yards. This will be my first try at legally opening up a test hole so I really want to read all of the rules and see what I can legally do without a poo. Then I will have a few trees to remove in the other area and I can get that signed off by my rep who has already told me that he will sign off on any trees that I need to take out at any of my operations but then I will need a poo for that according to him. Obviously I would rather not have to file a poo there unless it is legally deemed necessary.

Reed the DFW has nothing to do with POO's or mining. Not sure where you got the idea they had any authority over digging holes, tractor use or mining methods? The DFW is not a surface management agency.

The Supreme Court has stated that what constitutes a "significant surface disturbance" depends on the circumstances. They have variously ruled that any number of acres of mined desert sage land would not be a "significant surface disturbance" or as little as a few square feet on a steep sloped forest with high potential for slope collapse would be a "significant surface disturbance".

As I wrote before "Miners have a right to move dirt, sample and dig as needed in the least damaging way possible under the mining methods most appropriate to the deposit and conditions." A miner experienced in your local conditions and customs of mining could probably answer your question much better than I. It really all comes down to knowing your local condition better than whatever surface management agency you are dealing with does. The best knowledge (expert opinion) has the final say in these matters. If you are confident your knowledge of what a local "significant surface disturbance" amounts to can be proven to be superior to whatever the surface managers can bring to the table go ahead and dig. Expect to be asked to prove your expertise.

Read the thread you pointed to before. Elder Miner was moving some significant material in his sampling. He obviously understood the local conditions well and could describe the anticipated effects of his sampling. He knew what it would take in the local environment to avoid "undue and unnecessary damage" to the surface and he understood the local best practice of putting it all back in place when he was done. Elder Miner is a professional miner with a superior knowledge of the conditions and best mining practices under the conditions he was working in. He was the best expert available for the job. The area he was sampling in was forested with a fairly steep slope.

If you aren't an expert miner with good working knowledge of your local conditions you would need to consult one to answer your question. I wouldn't go to the Forest Service for their opinion if I could help it. What they consider an "expert opinion" will probably amount to someone in the office who thinks he knows something about best practice mining because he read part of a book when he took a Forest policy course 8 years ago.

As I said I don't know your local conditions. If your situation was local to my areas of experience I would probably ask you why the heck you needed a 40' x 100' hole to dig down 12 foot? Why would you use a tractor for sampling? The fact that you prefer to use a tractor is not an excuse for digging a bigger hole than you need to get a sample from 12 foot down. Your budget or what equipment you are more familiar with are not a consideration in determining best practice mining. Maybe in your area it is necessary to dig a 40' x 100' hole to get samples from 12 foot down. If that's the case you had better be able to prove it before you start digging that hole.

I hope that helps you figure out your best plan of action.

Heavy Pans

 

[GoldpannerDave]

In response to the below post--maybe the claim in patented; I did not see in the thread if it was or not. Edit--I did not read the entire thread first;

I'm glad you are getting the opportunity Layne, I hope it all "pans out" for you!

The hair went up on the back of my neck when I read your post though. I've been reading your posts on this forum and others for the last few years so I'm really rooting for you. I'm with John though - something smells fishy here. I've included above the portion of your post that sent my BS radar tingling.

Two people can't locate a 120 acre claim. It takes 6 locators to make and hold a 120 acre claim. It might take the BLM a year or more to get around to it but if there are really only two locators they will be voiding the location case file. The claim will be declared void from the beginning as if it never existed.

I would strongly suggest you discover the answer to two questions before putting down any of your savings on this deal:

1. What exactly is the status of the claim location with the county recorder, BLM and Master Title Plat?
And
2. Why the heck would these guys, or more importantly a mineral examiner, believe that they have a placer that covers 120 acres? 120 acre placers are rarer than hens teeth and the law requires every 10 acres to be proven mineral in character.

If this were your typical "lets go out this weekend and see if we can find a little gold" claim you might be good to go. You are not talking about a little weekend fun, you are talking about feeding your family. Experienced professional miners sniff the pile very closely before stepping in it much less taking the bite as you are considering.

Successful miners need to know a lot more than what equipment might be good for a deposit before mining. Considering you are a newbie to the world of making a living mining you may as well start with the necessary process of playing devils advocate to any deal that you might be considering. It will become a skill that you will come to find invaluable if you are to survive in the world of small mining.

In our mining group a deposit must be tested and defined in area and recoverable values before a claim is made. Even then the miners aren't brought in until all the cost/benefits of that particular claim are considered in relation to other discoveries. This is a point often missed by greenhorns. Without future prospects to be mined any single deposit is a dead end job. Once your one prospect is mined out or becomes unprofitable you are unemployed unless you have other deposits already vetted and defined. This is an ongoing process - a job.

There are a lot of reasons a good prospect can go south. I'm sure you are already thinking of possibilities like water, fuel costs, access, weather and a played out streak. All those things can, and do, happen but in my experience the most common reasons mining ventures fail is the human factor. People make mistakes. As you will discover over time, if you succeed in living your dream, a steady mining partner that you can depend on is much rarer than a big gold strike. Two such partners is a virtual impossibility. You can make your odds much better by always being one of those rare good partners yourself but you can't do that for the other miners you partner with.

Just my two cents.

Good luck and
Heavy Pans

 

[Jonsered]

I chucked it all a few months ago and went full time. I have never worked harder in my life, and I have never enjoyed my work more. For what its worth........

 

[Hard Prospector]

If your free of financial and family obligations I say go for it........You can always find another slave job.

 

[2cmorau]

wow they charge 15 bucks for that book, it use to be free, LOL guess taxes not enough

I got this book for 15 dollars from the. Redding, california b.l.m. office. It about an inch and a half thick and covers one heck of a lot. Laws all referanced, been reading for the last 2 weeks...if you want to know laws they are at your fingertips.. View attachment 1014274 i just called them up ordered over the phone and they mailed it along with a bunch of free intel they had on hand

 

[panningjack]

I'm supposed to be getting laid off as well. I kind of hope it happens so I can take the dredge out and give it another try at going pro. Last time I spent a summer traveling all over the valley. By the time I found good ground I had lost my funding and had to get a job. Good luck to you layne.

Ps. You work at mpi in boise?

 

[Reed Lukens]

Reed the DFW has nothing to do with POO's or mining. Not sure where you got the idea they had any authority over digging holes, tractor use or mining methods? The DFW is not a surface management agency.

Unfortunately around here the DFW thinks that they do and I file poo's with them because they ask me for them even when it is hand digging with hand tools. If you have seen the "wild justice" series you can easily see where the DFW places themselves into our lives. It's best to play it safe and stay out of court by following their local rules whether they are legal theirs or not. I haven't had any serious problems with them because they know & respect my mining habits and I ask them for their opinions when needed because fortunately I have a good DFW Representative who has worked well with me for the last 10+ years.
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLcAJzGCJ3Q7y_BNMdfeJG_VMHTU-RRTBZ

I have 10 to 15ft of loose flood sand to check under & too steep of sidewalls will make it to dangerous to work safely. A 30° slope is more or less expected being that it is mostly all loose flood sand. Then with a 10° grade down for an entry road caving will be minimized. Then this sand covers the ancient channel where the gold is about 24" to 30" deeper on bedrock. So in order to be able to sample it safe I need a wide hole with a shallow taper. Fortunately there are no trees and it is plain old beach style sand dunes. It's not a place where many would think to look for gold but it is there. I just need to be able to map the deposit boundaries safely. I've thought about tunneling but the whole project could be complete in a couple of months with the right equipment.

 

[G.I.B.]

If you had the chance what would you do?

I would invite me to go with you.