Incised Pebble

[jamus peek]

This is a recent find. I believe it's an Incised Pebble. It's a little bigger then a quarter and is flattened. Both sides display crosshatching but the incisions are not that deep and very water worn.

 

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[jamus peek]

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Those are sedimentary stones...layered sediments..compressed under extreme pressure...folded...compressed again under extreme pressure....eroded in odd angles.

I’m not saying the pieces you have shown, especially one of the later ones, were not handled...but the lines are due to the formation of the stone.

I really appreciate your opinion. Thanks for taking the time to post photos. I can see what your saying and you may be right.

 

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[IMAUDIGGER]

Think about it like a chunk of bread dough...you lay it out flat, then sprinkle flour on it....fold it and press it into flour again...then again maybe in the same direction every time..maybe in a different direction just once.

Let it dry then slice it up into rectangles and smooth the corners out to mimick erosion...what will it look like?

 

[IMAUDIGGER]

Athough not sedimentary stone..check out the bluff face of the old man on the mountain I posted in the other thread...clearly can see rolling and folding that occurred under extreme heat...

 

[jamus peek]

Athough not sedimentary stone..check out the bluff face of the old man on the mountain I posted in the other thread...clearly can see rolling and folding that occurred under extreme heat...

Hey I thought you said you couldn't see the faces. Playing games with me ha! I just emailed all the Archaeologists I know and told them the stones found are not Incised stones and I sent them the examples of sedimentary rocks that shrink and crack. I was sure to tell them they were from you so they are now recalling all the books they wrote about Incised stones. Not only will you get your money back you will get the book back with pics of birdstones, geniculates, and bannerstones instead of Incised stones. Unfortunately the literature will stay the same so be warned it may be confusing.

Hey I have had a few beers just having a little bit of fun!

 

[IMAUDIGGER]

That’s OK, I’m no expert. Just my opinion based on all the rocks I’ve found laying around in my lifetime.

Just sitting around listening to the scanner traffic about the rioting.

 

[Fossils]

I have heard of sinew stone but just from my experience with sinew and I have handled 1,000 of pieces, is once it's dried all you have to do is bend an work it back and forth an it will come apart in threads
So JMO I see no reason to have a stone to work it. JMO from years of working with it.

The sinew stone is a well known and well documented artifact. Perhaps the name is a misnomer and they were used for plant based fibers. However, they certainly did exist and have been found at many Native American sites.

 

[jamus peek]

That’s OK, I’m no expert. Just my opinion based on all the rocks I’ve found laying around in my lifetime.

Just sitting around listening to the scanner traffic about the rioting.

Crazy stuff. None of us are experts. It's easy to look at pics and make judgements whether artifacts or geofacts. There's not a lot of information out there on Incised stones. I can't give you context other then different types of Incised stones are found in different areas. The same types are found close by each other sometimes with in a few feet. These examples I have shown are not my best examples. I'm on a job site and these are ones I have on me to look at at lunchtime and after work lol!

At the very least they are worth a look.

 

[newnan man]

Your not being argumentative at all. These are all interesting stones but I have little experience in them. I just enjoy everyone's ideas and see merit in them. Right now I'm leaning towards it being a natural stone.

 

[Charl]

Here is one that jamus kindly gifted me. There is a great deal in the archaeological literature discussing these incised rocks found on sites in Southern California.....They are well known to archaeologists working in California, and they are known to be man made. In the example jamus gifted me, only one line is continuous around the entire circumference of the rock, which I believe is steatite. I have not examined the literature closely to examine theories of meaning, but this example, and many that jamus has found are not natural. These are man-made incised lines...It is recognized that many are honing stones, but by no means all examples...

https://scahome.org/publications/proceedings/Proceedings.03Cameron.pdf

Abstract: Engraved stone artifacts have been reported from allcounties in Southern California, with the most elaborate coming from Chumash territory in the area of Santa Barbara and on the Channel Islands. Most of the information on the patterned artifacts from Orange County has heretofore been available only in unpublished manuscripts. This report will remedy that situation by describing many of the carved objects found during the past fifty years in Orange County. Illustrations and measurements of these artifacts are included.

 

[Charl]

Another view of the example jamus gifted me. These are man-made incised lines...



I have not read this entire thread as yet. Nor viewed the many illustrations. But, I just want to make an observation: I have enjoyed a long correspondence with jamus regarding the very many incised rocks he has collected. He knew I had a long standing interest, both in portable petroglyphs, and randomly incised rocks. Recall, for instance, the curious incised rocks from the Paleo era Gault site, in Texas. I can say that while some may be natural, many of the numerous photos jamus sent me showed rocks with man-made incised lines. I can’t interpret them, some must have been functional in sharpening activity, others probably not. But he sure has found a lot!

And jamus, let me take the opportunity again, to thank you for your kind gift. You know I like and appreciate it very much!

 

[jamus peek]

Another view of the example jamus gifted me. These are man-made incised lines...

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I have not read this entire thread as yet. Nor viewed the many illustrations. But, I just want to make an observation: I have enjoyed a long correspondence with jamus regarding the very many incised rocks he has collected. He knew I had a long standing interest, both in portable petroglyphs, and randomly incised rocks. Recall, for instance, the curious incised rocks from the Paleo era Gault site, in Texas. I can say that while some may be natural, many of the numerous photos jamus sent me showed rocks with man-made incised lines. I can’t interpret them, some must have been functional in sharpening activity, others probably not. But he sure has found a lot!

And jamus, let me take the opportunity again, to thank you for your kind gift. You know I like and appreciate it very much!

You are very welcome Charlie! Thank you very much for the gifts I received from you. To be honest if it wasn't for the Incised stones you had shared I probably never would of looked for them.

Also thanks for the encouragement to find a point. I believe I may have found a nice one. Possibly a Western Stemmed Point. My thoughts were Parman or Lind coulee. I know I'm probably dreaming though. I'll start a thread to see if I can get an ID.

 

[jamus peek]

This one may be more obvious I believe it's soapstone. The incisions are only on one face.

 

[Relicgrubber]

That’s a lot of plow marks for sure!

 

[The Grim Reaper]

Another view of the example jamus gifted me. These are man-made incised lines...

View attachment 1837610

I have not read this entire thread as yet. Nor viewed the many illustrations. But, I just want to make an observation: I have enjoyed a long correspondence with jamus regarding the very many incised rocks he has collected. He knew I had a long standing interest, both in portable petroglyphs, and randomly incised rocks. Recall, for instance, the curious incised rocks from the Paleo era Gault site, in Texas. I can say that while some may be natural, many of the numerous photos jamus sent me showed rocks with man-made incised lines. I can’t interpret them, some must have been functional in sharpening activity, others probably not. But he sure has found a lot!

And jamus, let me take the opportunity again, to thank you for your kind gift. You know I like and appreciate it very much!

Its very clear that the lines on that piece have been incised, but I really don't believe that on the first one.

 

[IMAUDIGGER]

That piece sure is odd looking. What was the setting in which it was found?

Didn’t someone say that the edges of thin flint/obsidian pieces needed to be ground each time prior to flaking?

Could these incise marks be a result of grinding the edges?

 

[Charl]

Its very clear that the lines on that piece have been incised, but I really don't believe that on the first one.

Sure, I understand. Jamus has sent me many photos of the incised rocks he has found. And I had not read the entirety of this thread when I posted the example he sent me. I simply knew he has found a great many obviously human incised pieces, and posted that example. I have also seen examples that I felt were likely natural, and offered that opinion in my correspondence with Jamus. Also at issue was separating those examples that might be utilitarian, as possible sharpening stones, and those that seemed unlikely to be utilitarian. The paper I linked to spoke of making that same distinction. The example Jamus shows in comment #32 above strikes me as likely non utilitarian. That is a judgement call on my part, of course.

 

[Charl]

You are very welcome Charlie! Thank you very much for the gifts I received from you. To be honest if it wasn't for the Incised stones you had shared I probably never would of looked for them.

Also thanks for the encouragement to find a point. I believe I may have found a nice one. Possibly a Western Stemmed Point. My thoughts were Parman or Lind coulee. I know I'm probably dreaming though. I'll start a thread to see if I can get an ID.

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Congrats! You have indeed found the long elusive point!

 

[Charl]

I have heard of sinew stone but just from my experience with sinew and I have handled 1,000 of pieces, is once it's dried all you have to do is bend an work it back and forth an it will come apart in threads
So JMO I see no reason to have a stone to work it. JMO from years of working with it.

We have had very fruitful conversations regarding sinew stones elsewhere in the forum universe. It developed that all the flint knappers involved in those conversations were convinced that sinew stones, which almost always show at least some battering from hammering, were, in fact, not involved with sinew at all, but were part of a flint knapping kit. I can’t reproduce those conversations here, and won’t post a link to a different forum, but what I will say is that it now seems obvious that interpretation of the function of sinew stones needs a revision. I now firmly believe that sinew stones are indeed part of a knapping kit. And, really, that is a paper begging to be written. It should have been obvious long ago, IMHO. And those conversations, and reasoned debates elsewhere in the forum universe are proof to me of the fact that experienced amateurs who both collect and knapp are perfectly capable, and in the case of sinew stones, positioned, of making significant contributions to our knowledge of the past. Really, a knapper with writing skills should write and publish that potential paper, thereby redefining the description of the class of artifacts known as sinew stones.

 

[Charl]

Let me make it clear: the class of artifacts long known as sinew stones, had nothing to do with sinew. Sinew stones were part of a flint knapping kit.

Let me just quote one observation by a flint knapper involved in the debates over what sinew stones were used for: “You know that I am a flintknapper. To me that looks like an ideal hammerstone. The end was used for percussion work. While doing the percussion work we have to abrade the edge of the point frequently. This abrading puts grooves in the hammerstone. It's great to be able to use the same stone for abrading and percussion work”.

 

[IMAUDIGGER]

Jamus, can you take some additional photos of what could be considered the working face if that stone last pictured was used as a hammer stone? (Post #32) I’m not a knapper so I don’t know if soap stone would make a suitable hammer stone when knapping. But there should be some evidence of wear if it was used for a long period of time.