Is the Pit Mine really the Lost Dutchman mine?

[markmar]

That would mean that someone dug 230 feet of hard rock tunnel without extracting the gold that was visible?

The same question can you ask the petroleum companies how they know from the beginning how many barrels can extract from a deposit . Waltz have seen the vein from the beginning tiil its end , and with approximation told his deduction .

 

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[PotBelly Jim]

Paul

Waltz was a miner ingineer . I am sure at his university they learned to can deduce how rich could be a vein by their rules . Waltz was in the inclined shaft and knew how rich the vein was and how was running downward to the lip of the clif , where was the tunnel and the outcrop.

Marius, I think Paul makes a good common-sense argument here...Jim Bark said he saw Holmes and Roberts hand-processing what he believed to be Waltz's ore...would you say that they processed this ore before, or after, it was assayed? And what is this about Waltz being a mining engineer? What university are you talking about?

 

[markmar]

Jim

Joe Porterie made the assay from the ore Holmes sold to Goldman brothers , and I believe that ore was unprocessed . The assay was done for the Goldmans . I don't know if the ore that saw Jim Bark , was from the same source .
And Waltz was a graduate miner not a peon miner .

 

[PotBelly Jim]

Jim

Joe Porterie made the assay from the ore Holmes sold to Goldman brothers , and I believe that ore was unprocessed . The assay was done for the Goldman's . I don't know if the ore that saw Jim Bark , was from the same source .
And Waltz was a graduate miner not a peon miner .

OK, let's forget about Bark for the moment...and if we can safely assume that Holmes and Roberts had the faintest clue about gold ore...the assay was most likely performed on hand-picked jewelry ore...that kind of ore would be set aside and not processed by Holmes and Roberts...it was probably the best of the best...the fact that they even processed ANY of it, I think proves Paul's point that the vein DID NOT consist entirely of that great-looking, high-value jewelry ore...so trying to make an estimate of the OZ/Ton of the vein in situ, based on the surviving jewelry ore, is going to wildly skew the results...it would make it look like there was many more thousands of OZ/Ton that there actually was...

I don't know what you're trying to say...that Waltz was a graduate miner, not a peon miner...sometimes these things go over my head I guess...take care, Jim

 

[markmar]

Jim

"

Waltz, on the other hand, was born Jacob von Walzer at Wurtenburg, Germany in 1808. He was an educated man, a mining engineer graduated from Heidelburg University, and a 32[SUP]nd[/SUP] degree Mason. "
​

From Dutchman's Lost Mine
​

 

[Al D]

Jim

"

Waltz, on the other hand, was born Jacob von Walzer at Wurtenburg, Germany in 1808. He was an educated man, a mining engineer graduated from Heidelburg University, and a 32[SUP]nd[/SUP] degree Mason. "
​

From Dutchman's Lost Mine
​

That fact about Waltz being a mason is an important one, often missed by researchers

 

[deducer]

That fact about Waltz being a mason is an important one, often missed by researchers

How so?

 

[Al D]

How so?

There is a history of gold in the superstitions which predates the dutchman, the story of gold stored belonging to the King, his royal fifth, taxes taken from the mines all around and stored in a vault there.
King Charles was a supporter of the Masons but his son had them burned as heretics, possibly a factor in how the vault became “lost”.
as a mason, and his association with mexican miners, waltz probably heard about the story of gold hidden in the superstitions, went looking and found what we now call the LDM.
This is a very brief outline, and just group of small connections, yet, may be something there.

 

[PotBelly Jim]

Jim

"

Waltz, on the other hand, was born Jacob von Walzer at Wurtenburg, Germany in 1808. He was an educated man, a mining engineer graduated from Heidelburg University, and a 32[SUP]nd[/SUP] degree Mason. "
​

From Dutchman's Lost Mine
​

Ahhh...Thank you, Marius...I had forgotten about that book...I have the 17th Edition of Barney's re-write of Higham () in which Barney drops the claim that Von Walzer was a Mason, but keeps the assertion that he was a mining engineer...among other dubious claims...I'm fairly confident, thanks to certain friends, that this information is in error...but as it's impossible to prove a negative, I will just leave it there.... But I do thank you for pointing it out, my friend...take care, Jim

 

[deducer]

There is a history of gold in the superstitions which predates the dutchman, the story of gold stored belonging to the King, his royal fifth, taxes taken from the mines all around and stored in a vault there.
King Charles was a supporter of the Masons but his son had them burned as heretics, possibly a factor in how the vault became “lost”.
as a mason, and his association with mexican miners, waltz probably heard about the story of gold hidden in the superstitions, went looking and found what we now call the LDM.
This is a very brief outline, and just group of small connections, yet, may be something there.

That, to me, is a very tenuous connection to make. Is there some sort of reference that backs up what you're saying?

As far as the king's 5th, the Superstitions at the time it was still under Spanish rule, was far beyond the reach of the king- beyond the frontier of the Pimeria Alta. Consequently there would have been no reason to make any sort of distinction as far as the gold from local mines, or to bury it to hide it from the king.

Also, if I'm not wrong, freemasonry didn't take off in America until after the Revolutionary War, and even then was pretty much restricted to the northeast for a long time.

 

[Al D]

That, to me, is a very tenuous connection to make. Is there some sort of reference that backs up what you're saying?

As far as the king's 5th, the Superstitions at the time it was still under Spanish rule, was far beyond the reach of the King- beyond the frontier of the Pimeria Alta. Consequently there would have been no reason to make any sort of distinction as far as the gold from local mines, or to bury it to hide it from the king.

Also, if I'm not wrong, freemasonry didn't take off in America until after the Revolutionary War, and even then was pretty much restricted to the northeast for a long time.

I have read many books written by Jesuits who were working in Primeria Alta, after Kino:
juan Nentvig
Ignacio Pefferkorn
Jacobo Sedylmayer
even Och
they all indicate that the Activity of the kings men took into acount the area north of the Gila, also according to reports documented in “Description of the indies” by Antonio Vasques de Espinoza,S.J written in the late 1600’s
theft from the kings fifth and tax revenues was rampant everywhere.
as far as Freemasonry goes, the history of freemasons in Spain and Mexico is what’s of interest, not America.
however I am not interested in a debate nor am I interested in changing your opinion, I have learned in my seven or so years on this site that opinions in oposition of general belief can cause a lot of grief on the poster.
I posted this because someone may want to research this, as I have to enrich thier own theories.
best regards

 

[deducer]

I have read many books written by Jesuits who were working in Primeria Alta, after Kino:
juan Nentvig
Ignacio Pefferkorn
Jacobo Sedylmayer
even Och
they all indicate that the Activity of the kings men took into acount the area north of the Gila, also according to reports documented in “Description of the indies” by Antonio Vasques de Espinoza,S.J written in the late 1600’s
theft from the kings fifth and tax revenues was rampant everywhere.
as far as Freemasonry goes, the history of freemasons in Spain and Mexico is what’s of interest, not America.
however I am not interested in a debate nor am I interested in changing your opinion, I have learned in my seven or so years on this site that opinions in oposition of general belief can cause a lot of grief on the poster.
I posted this because someone may want to research this, as I have to enrich thier own theories.
best regards

I have no fixed opinions and I am interested in discussing and learning.

I, too, have read those books, and also the letters of Fr. Segesser. And many others.

Yes, the king's men ventured beyond the Gila river, but only in the capacity of protection (escorting), not enforcement. They did not have any control or influence whatsoever, that far north.

 

[Al D]

I have no fixed opinions and I am interested in discussing and learning.

I, too, have read those books, and also the letters of Fr. Segesser. And many others.

Yes, the king's men ventured beyond the Gila river, but only in the capacity of protection (escorting), not enforcement. They did not have any control or influence whatsoever, that far north.

Jacobo Sedylmayer states in his letters to his superiors, ref. “Before Rebellion, the letters of Jacobo Sedylmayer S.J.”
that all attempts by the Jesuits to get escorts for travel north of the gila, go unanswered, this infers that there was a reason why the King, or his officials did not want the Jesuits north of the Gila river.
there was some sort of tension between the Jesuits and the governing officials, evident by the lack of cooperation as well as the secretive methods of comunicating, even Nentvig ask as to what info was permitted to be disclosed and what was not.

 

[Al D]

Yes, the king's men ventured beyond the Gila river, but only in the capacity of protection (escorting), not enforcement. They did not have any control or influence whatsoever, that far north.

After the Pima uprising in 1751, the spanish militia punished the Pimas by killing most of the men and teen boys, this may have been a significant factor in the influx of Apache into the area, the Pima were fierce warriors against the Apache and some authorities indicate that the Pima were the better fighters,
with the Pima force decimated, the spanish military lost a lot of control over the area, much later, 1799 Hugh O’Connor would finally bring some stability to the region and effect a truce with the Apache. However, that was long after the Jesuit expulsion in 1767.

 

[deducer]

Jacobo Sedylmayer states in his letters to his superiors, ref. “Before Rebellion, the letters of Jacobo Sedylmayer S.J.”
that all attempts by the Jesuits to get escorts for travel north of the gila, go unanswered, this infers that there was a reason why the King, or his officials did not want the Jesuits north of the Gila river.
there was some sort of tension between the Jesuits and the governing officials, evident by the lack of cooperation as well as the secretive methods of comunicating, even Nentvig ask as to what info was permitted to be disclosed and what was not.

The acting governor frequently denied escorts and his reasons as stated were that soldiers were needed to fight off the Apaches and Seris who were constantly giving the two presidios existing at the time that were anywhere near that territory, the Presidio de Santa Rosa de Corodéguachi, and Presidio de San Bernardino (near Douglas), a lot of trouble.

There was always tension between the Jesuits and the Spanish officials over just about everything.

 

[deducer]

After the Pima uprising in 1751, the spanish militia punished the Pimas by killing most of the men and teen boys, this may have been a significant factor in the influx of Apache into the area, the Pima were fierce warriors against the Apache and some authorities indicate that the Pima were the better fighters, with the Pima force decimated, the spanish military lost a lot of control over the area.

This is a very good point, and something I did not think about. The Tubac presidio founded in 1752 as a response to the Pima uprising, ironically, found themselves in constant battle with the Apaches and Seris, rather than the Pimas.

Tubac was eventually abandoned in favor of the Tucson presidio, as you know.

 

[Al D]

This is a very good point, and something I did not think about. The Tubac presidio founded in 1752 as a response to the Pima uprising, ironically, found themselves in constant battle with the Apaches and Seris, rather than the Pimas.

Tubac was eventually abandoned in favor of the Tucson presidio, as you know.

My understanding, and I admit I may be wrong, is that the Apache were few in numbers until well after the Jesuit expulsion, say 1775 or so, and the Seri were too far south to be of concern in the Primia alta.

 

[Cubfan64]

Paul

Waltz was a miner engineer . I am sure at his university they learned to can deduce how rich could be a vein by their rules . Waltz was in the inclined shaft and knew how rich the vein was and how was running downward to the lip of the clif , where was the tunnel and the outcrop.

Marius,

If you want to make the above argument fine, but that has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with your post about the assay or my response - the two are completely exclusive of one another.

 

[Oroblanco]

Marius, your statement is flawed in my opinion and it's a pet peeve of mine whenever I see the assay values mentioned. Does anyone really believe that the ore Joe Porterie did the assay on was representative of the whole vein of gold that Waltz got it from?

That ore (whether Waltz got it from a vein himself or from a cache) was surely hand picked as the richest pieces possible so any assay done on it would be seriously skewed towards a much higher value than the "whole," and definitely not a representative sample.

Not to speak for Marius here, but perhaps the back story of the assay might help clarify the idea of just how 'representative' it might be. The assay was done because the buyer was uncertain of the value, in other words 'demanded' before buying it. That would mean that the sample was more likely chosen by the buyer, not the seller, and would not be the richest piece(s) of the lot. If the ore assay was done by a prospector looking to sell a prospective mine, then naturally it would have been the richest he could get, but in this case it was at the demand of the buyer.

That said, it obviously would have been hand cobbed to reduce the amount of waste rock to have to haul away. Even so, at 5500 ounces per ton, it is not as rich as some other mines have produced. We are speculating until someone finds the mine of Jacob Waltz.

Please do continue, sorry for the interruption.

 

[deducer]

My understanding, and I admit I may be wrong, is that the Apache were few in numbers until well after the Jesuit expulsion, say 1775 or so, and the Seri were too far south to be of concern in the Primia alta.

Skirmishes with the Apache grew more frequent and more intense as the white men invaded more and more of their territory during the time period you speak of, but they were definitely a force to be reckoned with, even during Kino's time. I have several Jesuit maps on which you can see the words "Apache" surrounded by blank space, which seems to suggest that the area was not explored but rather avoided.

Here is a link to a paper you may find interesting:

https://repository.arizona.edu/bits...6/AZU_TD_BOX260_E9791_1966_313.pdf;sequence=1