Is There Any Evidence that the Lost Dutchman Mine really exists?

[Oroblanco]

AZDave - if your friends really did find the LDM and cleaned out all the gold, what possible harm can there be to make it public now? The statute of limitations on this "crime" of mining some gold in a Wilderness Area only runs seven years, and all the gold is gone right? Wouldn't that help prevent future tragedies like so recently happened with the Utah men and the Colorado man? Some curiosity seekers might hike in to look at the empty hole and maybe get some photos, but it might save others from death or serious injuries right? This is a point that bothers me when someone claims they found the LDM and cleaned it all out. Milton Rose made the very same claim about fifty years or so ago, yet his story won't match up with the type of ore the matchbox is made from. Just a thought, and I do agree that it is wise to be cautious about accepting a lot of things posted on the internet without question, which includes your friends and their LDM gold mine.

 

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[Old]

Oro,

You shouldn't have such clutter laying around. Pack up and send that ole non LDM rock to me. I'll pay the shipping.

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

IRS?

Take care,

Joe

 

[azdave35]

Roy,

IRS?

Take care,

Joe

lol...exactly joe

 

[azdave35]

AZDave - if your friends really did find the LDM and cleaned out all the gold, what possible harm can there be to make it public now? The statute of limitations on this "crime" of mining some gold in a Wilderness Area only runs seven years, and all the gold is gone right? Wouldn't that help prevent future tragedies like so recently happened with the Utah men and the Colorado man? Some curiosity seekers might hike in to look at the empty hole and maybe get some photos, but it might save others from death or serious injuries right? This is a point that bothers me when someone claims they found the LDM and cleaned it all out. Milton Rose made the very same claim about fifty years or so ago, yet his story won't match up with the type of ore the matchbox is made from. Just a thought, and I do agree that it is wise to be cautious about accepting a lot of things posted on the internet without question, which includes your friends and their LDM gold mine.

roy..i never said he was my friend...as far as milton rose goes....he found a pocket in 4 peaks that he thought was the ldm....some indians showed it to him. i wouldnt discount milton rose...after he got old he was a little screwy but when he was younger he found alot out in the hills..most of it shown to him by injuns...like ive said before roy....you cant prove or disprove anything by reading on the internet,,,,no one and i mean no one is going to post anything worth while online...most of the junk you read online is researchers.... and you know the old saying...those that can ..do..those who cant...teach...or write.........the rest of the junk you read online is by liars...idiots bragging about finding something just to be big shots.... if you go to the rendezvous this year and keep your ears open...you just might learn something

 

[ibjeepn]

Oh bull pucky. HA HA. Another he said... she said. The myth lives on.

 

[Oroblanco]

Another extra coffee alert!

roy..i never said he was my friend...as far as milton rose goes....he found a pocket in 4 peaks that he thought was the ldm....some indians showed it to him. i wouldnt discount milton rose...after he got old he was a little screwy but when he was younger he found alot out in the hills..most of it shown to him by injuns...like ive said before roy....you cant prove or disprove anything by reading on the internet,,,,no one and i mean no one is going to post anything worth while online...most of the junk you read online is researchers.... and you know the old saying...those that can ..do..those who cant...teach...or write.........the rest of the junk you read online is by liars...idiots bragging about finding something just to be big shots.... if you go to the rendezvous this year and keep your ears open...you just might learn something

Dave, I have been to the rendezvous, for several years running now. I don't make it every year and may not make it this time so I don't make any promises I may not be able to keep. I have to respectfully disagree with some of what you said there, although I do agree there is a great deal of BS in circulation it is not just on the internet. Sometimes the BS is actually believed by the person saying it too. I used the term "your friend" referring to the person you say found the LDM and cleaned all the gold out rather than typing that longer sentence each time. I did not know Milton Rose personally, and knew that his LDM was up on Four Peaks. In fact I think I found the exact spot over twenty years ago, which looked to me like someone had found a nice pocket of epithermal gold ore that they dug about seven feet down and four to five feet wide, like a shallow mine shaft but the ore pinches right out to rhyolite. I don't know if I ever met you at a rendezvous since I don't know your name, but I do listen to what people say at the rendezvous.

Perhaps it will help show that I have been attending Dutch hunters rendezvous with some photos?


The goofy looking guy on the left is Oroblanco - me - and the lady on the right is Mrs Oro, you probably know Bob Corbin in the center
next

you probably can recognize Clay Worst on the left, and the goofy looking guy on the right this time is Oroblanco

next


this photo is Tom Kollenborn on the left, and Oroblanco on the right, acting silly for the camera at a rendezvous



This one has (left to right) Billy Fincham, next, seated is a goofy looking guy with his back to the camera (me) Joe Ribaudo (aka Cactusjumper) also seated, and both Bob Corbin (turned away standing) and Tom Kollenborn (seated).

Left to right that is our partner Loke, Bob Shoose, a goofy guy you may now recognize as Oroblanco, and Billy Fincham

and to help show that this is not all a new game to me, here are a couple of photos


Not sure of the exact date on that but think it was from the '70s


in camp at Tortilla ranch (some may recognize the spot) same time period, the fellow on the left is our old partner Diamond Joe and the goofy looking character near the tent is Oroblanco, as you can see it is just after sunset. A wee bit less of the grey hair then of course.

My apologies in advance on this next photo, unfortunately our home burned to the ground in 1989 and we were only able to salvage a very few photos from before that date, and this one is among the damaged:

It is a shot looking up the street at Goldfield, and this definitely dates to the 1970s

that is Mrs Oro in the entrance of a cave we found, not sure of the date

One more


you may well recognize this windmill and corral, which today is largely fallen down. Sorry for the condition of the photo, this one predates our fire.

Old wrote

Oro,
You shouldn't have such clutter laying around. Pack up and send that ole non LDM rock to me. I'll pay the shipping.

Well unfortunately we get a lot of wind here in Dakota, mostly from Wyoming, so I need paperweights. Not a lot of rocks in Edgemont so we have to import them, including some from Arizona.



Cactusjumper wrote

Roy,
IRS?

Great excuse for not reporting the income, except it is the simplest thing to just claim or buy an old, played out mine and then sell your ore (legally and above board) as having come from the legal mine. This trick has been done before too. By pretending your ore came from a claim you hold legally, you can then even deduct your mining expenses. No risk of IRS prosecution and few people would even question your source. Not telling anyone this is how to skirt the laws, but it has been done successfully before. What IRS agent is going to say, " that gold you sold could not have come from your legally owned gold mine"?

More coffee anyone?

 

[Oroblanco]

PS I want to give credit to Cactusjumper Joe Ribaudo for talking us into coming to the annual Dutch hunters rendezvous, I had not met any of the 'famous' Dutch hunters before that, and likely never would have if not for Joe. So THANK YOU to Cactusjumper Joe again, for talking me into something I have enjoyed repeatedly, and won't miss a rendezvous if I can help it.

 

[azdave35]

Dave, I have been to the rendezvous, for several years running now. I don't make it every year and may not make it this time so I don't make any promises I may not be able to keep. I have to respectfully disagree with some of what you said there, although I do agree there is a great deal of BS in circulation it is not just on the internet. Sometimes the BS is actually believed by the person saying it too. I used the term "your friend" referring to the person you say found the LDM and cleaned all the gold out rather than typing that longer sentence each time. I did not know Milton Rose personally, and knew that his LDM was up on Four Peaks. In fact I think I found the exact spot over twenty years ago, which looked to me like someone had found a nice pocket of epithermal gold ore that they dug about seven feet down and four to five feet wide, like a shallow mine shaft but the ore pinches right out to rhyolite. I don't know if I ever met you at a rendezvous since I don't know your name, but I do listen to what people say at the rendezvous.

Perhaps it will help show that I have been attending Dutch hunters rendezvous with some photos?

View attachment 1159570
The goofy looking guy on the left is Oroblanco - me - and the lady on the right is Mrs Oro, you probably know Bob Corbin in the center
next
View attachment 1159571
you probably can recognize Clay Worst on the left, and the goofy looking guy on the right this time is Oroblanco

next

View attachment 1159574
this photo is Tom Kollenborn on the left, and Oroblanco on the right, acting silly for the camera at a rendezvous


View attachment 1159576
This one has (left to right) Billy Fincham, next, seated is a goofy looking guy with his back to the camera (me) Joe Ribaudo (aka Cactusjumper) also seated, and both Bob Corbin (turned away standing) and Tom Kollenborn (seated).
View attachment 1159598
Left to right that is our partner Loke, Bob Shoose, a goofy guy you may now recognize as Oroblanco, and Billy Fincham

and to help show that this is not all a new game to me, here are a couple of photos

View attachment 1159581
Not sure of the exact date on that but think it was from the '70s

View attachment 1159583
in camp at Tortilla ranch (some may recognize the spot) same time period, the fellow on the left is our old partner Diamond Joe and the goofy looking character near the tent is Oroblanco, as you can see it is just after sunset. A wee bit less of the grey hair then of course.

My apologies in advance on this next photo, unfortunately our home burned to the ground in 1989 and we were only able to salvage a very few photos from before that date, and this one is among the damaged:
View attachment 1159592
It is a shot looking up the street at Goldfield, and this definitely dates to the 1970s
View attachment 1159596
that is Mrs Oro in the entrance of a cave we found, not sure of the date

One more

View attachment 1159599
you may well recognize this windmill and corral, which today is largely fallen down. Sorry for the condition of the photo, this one predates our fire.

Old wrote

Well unfortunately we get a lot of wind here in Dakota, mostly from Wyoming, so I need paperweights. Not a lot of rocks in Edgemont so we have to import them, including some from Arizona.



Cactusjumper wrote

Great excuse for not reporting the income, except it is the simplest thing to just claim or buy an old, played out mine and then sell your ore (legally and above board) as having come from the legal mine. This trick has been done before too. By pretending your ore came from a claim you hold legally, you can then even deduct your mining expenses. No risk of IRS prosecution and few people would even question your source. Not telling anyone this is how to skirt the laws, but it has been done successfully before. What IRS agent is going to say, " that gold you sold could not have come from your legally owned gold mine"?

More coffee anyone?

roy...i knew you had been to some of the rendezvous...i havent been to one in a long time but i might be there this year...i also know that the big boys of the dutch community (corbin.. kollenborn..worst...feldman..shoose..etc.)..arent really going to give away any secrets at those rendezvous....it is some of the lesser known individuals you should listen to...that is if they are still showing up out there

 

[cactusjumper]

PS I want to give credit to Cactusjumper Joe Ribaudo for talking us into coming to the annual Dutch hunters rendezvous, I had not met any of the 'famous' Dutch hunters before that, and likely never would have if not for Joe. So THANK YOU to Cactusjumper Joe again, for talking me into something I have enjoyed repeatedly, and won't miss a rendezvous if I can help it.

Roy and Beth,

It's amazing how many great/new friends Carolyn and I have met at the Rendezvous'. A number of them have come to Havasu and spent weekends with us. It's one of the many treasures we have received from the Superstition Mountains.
Your visit was a real treat for us. You are both more than welcome to come back.......anytime.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

roy...i knew you had been to some of the rendezvous...i havent been to one in a long time but i might be there this year...i also know that the big boys of the dutch community (corbin.. kollenborn..worst...feldman..shoose..etc.)..arent really going to give away any secrets at those rendezvous....it is some of the lesser known individuals you should listen to...that is if they are still showing up out there

I see what you are saying - I got the wrong impression. I have talked with a lot of folks at the rendezvous, and this is what I meant about having heard the song before, about someone saying they found the mine and cleaned it all out. I don't buy it, though I don't doubt that gold was found and mined, just that no sample is ever shown that could be compared to the matchbox, cuff links, etc. I have seen ore also and some nuggets that a fellow had, that looked to several of us like they came from Alaska but he insisted came from the LDM, while the ore looked like silver ore to me, not similar to the matchbox.

Most people don't know gold ore from shinola, so if you show some ore and say it came from the LDM or the Wagoner or what ever mine, especially if you can see some gold in it, most people won't question it. The truth is there are no two gold ores that are alike, every vein is different. Some kinds <epithermal> do commonly pinch out at a shallow depth and no amount of digging deeper will turn up more gold in epithermal type gold deposits, but the other types run to great depths, like the famous Witwatersrand in S Africa or the Homestake here in SD. The matchbox ore looks like the kind that runs deep. It would not be easily "cleaned out" and the amount of gold you would get by trying to, would be immense. No one has brought out THAT much gold from the Superstitions.

Tom Kollenborn and Bob Corbin both now are convinced there never was any Lost Dutchman's mine, so you have plenty of good and highly respected company.

 

[azdave35]

I see what you are saying - I got the wrong impression. I have talked with a lot of folks at the rendezvous, and this is what I meant about having heard the song before, about someone saying they found the mine and cleaned it all out. I don't buy it, though I don't doubt that gold was found and mined, just that no sample is ever shown that could be compared to the matchbox, cuff links, etc. I have seen ore also and some nuggets that a fellow had, that looked to several of us like they came from Alaska but he insisted came from the LDM, while the ore looked like silver ore to me, not similar to the matchbox.

Most people don't know gold ore from shinola, so if you show some ore and say it came from the LDM or the Wagoner or what ever mine, especially if you can see some gold in it, most people won't question it. The truth is there are no two gold ores that are alike, every vein is different. Some kinds <epithermal> do commonly pinch out at a shallow depth and no amount of digging deeper will turn up more gold in epithermal type gold deposits, but the other types run to great depths, like the famous Witwatersrand in S Africa or the Homestake here in SD. The matchbox ore looks like the kind that runs deep. It would not be easily "cleaned out" and the amount of gold you would get by trying to, would be immense. No one has brought out THAT much gold from the Superstitions.

Tom Kollenborn and Bob Corbin both now are convinced there never was any Lost Dutchman's mine, so you have plenty of good and highly respected company.

most of the veins i or any of my friends have ever worked in arizona come and go....they pocket up for a bit..then pinch down...if you keep going on them they open back up...my old partner worked one up by copperopolous that he followed for about 150 foot...when he first hit it ..it was about a foot wide...after a few foot it pinched down to nothing except a tiny vein of snuff...he kept going on it and pretty soon it opened up to about an inch wide....then kept getting bigger till it hit 8 inch wide...stayed that big for a few feet and pinched back down....it did that the entire time he worked it....then it took a turn and went down...he didnt want to shaft it so he quit....some of the area around goldfield is block faulted so its easy to lose the vein...some core drilling will relocate it though....i knew a guy that was working the mammoth mine back in the 80's (where the tourist trap ghost town is now),,, there wasnt much of a vein structure...just a thousand rich little stringer veins..the only way they could mine it was to pit it...and most of the little veins were of different composition...i've seen many different types of ore come from one hole....i know there are people that claim they can identify ore as coming from a certain mine..i've been at this 35 years and have seen enough ores to disagree

 

[Oroblanco]

most of the veins i or any of my friends have ever worked in arizona come and go....they pocket up for a bit..then pinch down...if you keep going on them they open back up...my old partner worked one up by copperopolous that he followed for about 150 foot...when he first hit it ..it was about a foot wide...after a few foot it pinched down to nothing except a tiny vein of snuff...he kept going on it and pretty soon it opened up to about an inch wide....then kept getting bigger till it hit 8 inch wide...stayed that big for a few feet and pinched back down....it did that the entire time he worked it....then it took a turn and went down...he didnt want to shaft it so he quit....some of the area around goldfield is block faulted so its easy to lose the vein...some core drilling will relocate it though....i knew a guy that was working the mammoth mine back in the 80's (where the tourist trap ghost town is now),,, there wasnt much of a vein structure...just a thousand rich little stringer veins..the only way they could mine it was to pit it...and most of the little veins were of different composition...i've seen many different types of ore come from one hole....i know there are people that claim they can identify ore as coming from a certain mine..i've been at this 35 years and have seen enough ores to disagree

Well I disagree with you on that point. Do you say that if someone has a piece of ore, that MATCHES the famous Waltz matchbox ore, that won't prove anything? Thanks in advance.

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

I wonder if there could be an exact match for the matchbox ore. Wouldn't it probably come from a different depth and show a different composition?

Thanks,

Joe

 

[azdave35]

Well I disagree with you on that point. Do you say that if someone has a piece of ore, that MATCHES the famous Waltz matchbox ore, that won't prove anything? Thanks in advance.

you should read my post again.

 

[Oroblanco]

Roy,

I wonder if there could be an exact match for the matchbox ore. Wouldn't it probably come from a different depth and show a different composition?

Thanks,

Joe

Why could there NOT be an exact match for that ore? It has been done before with other mines, even in court. The ore comparison was done with the Breyfogle-Amargosa and got an exact match. I do not see why this is SO hard to grasp. There are variations in the ore within a vein - but the mineral makeup, the grain size, the gold to silver ratio are factors that are examined, not so much the color or how the ore "looks" to the eye. Some rich ores are downright fugly anyway, not so pretty as what was used to make the matchbox.

AZDave35 wrote

you should read my post again.

Sure, no problem. However you ignored my question. Maybe I should address it to all of our skeptics:

IF someone were to turn up tomorrow, having photos of an old mine with gold ore in it, and has a piece of that ore compared to the famous matchbox (or another specimen from the candlebox ore) and it is a PERFECT Match, would you say that does not prove anything? Thanks in advance.

 

[Oroblanco]

On this point of the ore comparison. I contend that it is our BEST AVAILABLE method of proving in a scientific way, that the Lost Dutchman mine is found. If we throw out the characteristics of the ore, which are what an ore comparison is all about, then we are open to a lot of claims that the LDM was found. Milton Rose found it up on Four Peaks and cleaned it all out. The guys involved in the Pit mine, found it in Rogers canyon and cleaned it all out. Walt Gassler found it somewhere near Charlebois spring. John Ramses found it and wrote a book on it. There are at least a dozen different news articles dating before 1930 in which different prospectors have found the LDM, in Four Peaks, in Goldfield, even in the hills south of Tucson, and most of them brought out some gold. Most of the claimants of modern times have no gold to show at all. The best way I know of, to sort this out and be able to say whether any particular one IS or is NOT the LDM, is by an ore comparison. You are all certainly welcome to believe what ever you prefer, and don't take my word on a thing. I have only been at this for thirty years, not so much as others, and am still learning new things.
However, I repeat that question, if this ore comparison is SO meaningless, suppose someone finds a mine, has an ore comparison done and it is a perfect match to the matchbox ore? Will that mean nothing to you? IF you would have to admit that such a match would indeed mean something to you, then what is your problem with having an ore comparison done?

Dave - most lode gold deposits in Arizona are just what you and your friends/acquaintances have been working. Epithermal type deposits - I don't have the book at hand but can find it if anyone desires (and does not have their own copy) done by the USGS on the lode gold mines of Arizona, anyway this is the most common type of gold deposit in Arizona. They commonly pinch out, may re-appear further on, and pinch out again. It is the nature of Epithermal type deposits, which were formed at shallow depth in the Earth. Not all gold veins in Arizona are this type, the most prominent one that people will recognize when you talk about it is the Vulture. The ore runs very deep in the Vulture because it is a different type of gold deposit; the mineral grains in the ore are larger, because they were formed at a deeper depth in the Earth than Epithermal types. As you have been doing this for 35 years, more than me, you already know this. Now look at that matchbox ore again, it has large grain size not small. The only assay ever done (at Goldmans, by Joe Porterie for Dick Holmes, required before Goldmans would purchase the ore in the candle box and thus was not a hand-picked extra rich sample) had a LOT of gold to relatively little silver. This is another feature of Hypothermal type gold deposits, but NOT a feature of Epithermal types, which normally have a lot of silver (relatively speaking) in relation to the gold content. They also often have more copper, and in some cases lead as well. Hypothermal type gold deposits do not form shallow pockets or veins that pinch out in a short distance, because of the nature of how they were formed in the first place. The other "common" type is Mesothermal, also formed at depth but not so deep as Hypothermal types, but still has larger grain size than Epithermal, and also has more silver content than Hypothermal types. I am not a geologist or assayer but am not making this up, check it out for yourself if you don't believe me (this statement to anyone reading this, Dave probably already knows it).

The ore in that matchbox came from a vein that was formed deep in the earth and will run very deep. The gold vein may not look like much on the surface, as was the case with the Vulture mine and several other hypothermal type gold mines, including several right here in South Dakota. Even the famous Homestake (a very different type of gold vein) did not look like much on the surface and prospectors had walked right over it numerous times before it was recognized, as it was so different from the other gold mines located all around it.

Sorry for taking eighty thousand words to get one point across. You are all welcome to your own opinions and I am more than happy to agree to disagree.

I would like to move on to other aspects of the evidence in the LDM, will be back online this evening but must sign off now.
Roy ~ Oroblanco

 

[azdave35]

Why could there NOT be an exact match for that ore? It has been done before with other mines, even in court. The ore comparison was done with the Breyfogle-Amargosa and got an exact match. I do not see why this is SO hard to grasp. There are variations in the ore within a vein - but the mineral makeup, the grain size, the gold to silver ratio are factors that are examined, not so much the color or how the ore "looks" to the eye. Some rich ores are downright fugly anyway, not so pretty as what was used to make the matchbox.

AZDave35 wrote


Sure, no problem. However you ignored my question. Maybe I should address it to all of our skeptics:

IF someone were to turn up tomorrow, having photos of an old mine with gold ore in it, and has a piece of that ore compared to the famous matchbox (or another specimen from the candlebox ore) and it is a PERFECT Match, would you say that does not prove anything? Thanks in advance.

roy..i did ignore your question for a reason...you have obviously read every book you can get your hands on so that makes you an expert....so this is for some of the other folks here that want to learn something...here are 2 cabs i cut from different mines...one is from the silver king mine...the other is from another mine 7 miles away....they both appear identical and are identical in mineral composition....argentiferous galena,,argentiferous sphalerite..stromeyerite, white quartz and native silver....that pretty much blows your theory...and as far as court cases go...who would believe anything that goes on in court...lawyers can twist anything around to get their point across and win a case....another thing you seem to have a problem with is you think if someone finds the mine they should come forward and fess up and have the ore tested...that right there tells me you dont have anywhere near the experience you claim....the first thing you learn is to keep your mouth shut if you find something..unless you want to go to prison and lose everything you own....a few others here have tried to school you on that and it goes right over your head

 

[azdave35]

roy..i did ignore your question for a reason...you have obviously read every book you can get your hands on so that makes you an expert....so this is for some of the other folks here that want to learn something...here are 2 cabs i cut from different mines...one is from the silver king mine...the other is from another mine 7 miles away....they both appear identical and are identical in mineral composition....argentiferous galena,,argentiferous sphalerite..stromeyerite, white quartz and native silver....that pretty much blows your theory...and as far as court cases go...who would believe anything that goes on in court...lawyers can twist anything around to get their point across and win a case....another thing you seem to have a problem with is you think if someone finds the mine they should come forward and fess up and have the ore tested...that right there tells me you dont have anywhere near the experience you claim....the first thing you learn is to keep your mouth shut if you find something..unless you want to go to prison and lose everything you own....a few others here have tried to school you on that and it goes right over your head

View attachment 1159894

P.S.....you might have to download the pic and zoom to get a good shot of it

 

[cactusjumper]

Yes I have been typing from memory, don't have the book in hand. I don't insist that Terry's short sentences MUST be taken VERBATIM. Terry was a compiler for us, so his Atlases are really more like a collection of leads than an encyclopedia of treasure fact. I was trying to point out that people were indeed shipping ore to Sacramento from Arizona, which is what Terry is saying, his bit on the US Mint could be erroneous and the remainder of his statement correct. Two and a half tons of ore is only a fraction of what was sent according to that news item so would not be any extreme amount. I would point out also that many others were shipping ore out of the territory in the same time period as Waltz so his doing so is not that likely to arouse any gold rush especially if bagged up so no one could see what was in the sacks. It would have been foolhardy for someone to bring open top boxes full of gold in to ship by anyone.

IF Waltz did receive that much in cash, I agree there is little to indicate where it went. It is possible that he simply pissed it away, as all too many prospectors did in wild sprees for fun. It is also possible that he gave it to some relative we have not uncovered, or even buried it somewhere. Higham's letter has that same figure, and stated it was the reason why the Petrasch boys changed their minds after having reached the conclusion they were being sent on a wild goose chase. My bet is that these receipts (plural) may turn up some day.

Also we simply do not know the dates on the receipts, nor how many. Were there two or two hundred? An envelope of a few or a shoe box full? Who knows at this point in the game.

I do stand by the point that this story of the shipping receipts is POSSIBLE. Wells Fargo Express was taking credit for shipping in the time period, the RR had reached Yuma and even before this, freight was being shipped out by boats on the Colorado river in sizable amounts. If Waltz shipped out that "huge" amount over the span of 23 years in relatively small packages, it is absolutely possible that he spent the cash as fast as the money came in. We have no evidence that Waltz received $250,000 in ONE lump after all, it could have been fifty smaller amounts or more. We might be able to add up a pile of your old paychecks and find an astonishing fortune, but you did not receive that money in one lump - yet this large amount is what would get passed on in the stories. (Remember you are already linked by some folks to have found a cave full of gold bars, so later generations may well be adding up your income and concluding it must have been one lump - they might look at your lifestyle and property and say this proves you hit it, or on the other hand say this proves you did not!) You may be able to watch (from the heavens) as your own story takes on a life of its own just like Waltz.

I hope all is well with you - we are getting some needed rain so that gives me the excuse to be on here boring everyone! I should sign off though, so talk to you later.
Roy

Roy,

Here are Thomas Terry's actual words:

"The still existing records of Wells Fargo and the U.S. Mint at Sacramento show that $250,000 in gold was shipped by Waltz between 1881-1889. The records can not be denied. Dr. Chandler does deny that claim. No such records exist. Since his first Atlas was published in 1974, that is well after the Wells Fargo office in San Francisco was destroyed.
There has never been a "U.S. Mint at Sacramento."

The first printing of the first edition, which contains the above quote was printed in 1958. Terry does not give us "short sentences" concerning Waltz and the LDM. Instead he devotes 1/2 of a page (lrg. pages) to a story that quotes many false stories about Waltz.

Here is a story that does not attribute to someone else:

"Jacob Waltz was fired from the Vulture Mine in Wickenburg for highgrading and turned up in Phoenix....."

Terry also states as fact:

"The 8 gold mines of the Peralta brothers, in actual fact, really existed and are no myth......".

All of the quotes come from pages 58-59 in Volume 1, of Terry's "United States Treasure Atlas".

Much of his information obviously came from rumors that surfaced after Waltz's death.

I must stick with what Dr Chandler told me.

Take care,

Joe