Is There Any Evidence that the Lost Dutchman Mine really exists?

Oroblanco

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Hola amigos;
I am starting this thread for the debate and discussion of various evidence (or lack thereof) as to whether the Lost Dutchman gold mine really exists.

Rather than post the extremely long opening argument here, I put it on my personal blog; anyone can read it at:

https://oroblanco.wordpress.com/201...at-the-lost-dutchman-gold-mine-really-exists/


For some reason the links I tried to include in that post would not work, so I am posting them here for your convenience:

Analyses of rocks and stream sediments of the Superstition Wilderness, Arizona
<Analyses of rocks and stream sediments of the Superstition Wilderness, Arizona>

SUPERSTITION WILDERNESS, ARIZONA.
<SUPERSTITION WILDERNESS, ARIZONA>

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...=4VlyjNe8eAGNtFF935irSw&bvm=bv.92291466,d.eXY
<Geology of the Superstition Wilderness Area by Tom Kollenborn>

So fire away amigos, pro or con.
Oroblanco

:coffee2: :coffee: :coffee2:
 
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spummerr

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IMO it only exist in some peoples head. Claims of wealth by people in those days, folk stories etc etc all ad up to a bogus mine
 
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Oroblanco

Oroblanco

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IMO it only exist in some peoples head. Claims of wealth by people in those days, folk stories etc etc all ad up to a non bogus mine

Have you researched the Lost Dutchman mine for yourself? Did you read the blog I posted a link to above?
 

Old

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Did it exist for Jacob Waltz, Julia Thomas, Reiney and Dick Holmes? Absolutely! Each of them reaped the benefits of that/those mine(s). Jacob for his life time and rest for a fleeting moment.

Does it exist for those that continue to hunt it? Absolutely it does.

For those that doubt its existence and ignore the mountains of evidence before them? No. No such mine exists for them. Fortune and good luck only come to those that seek it. As the saying goes, gold is where you find it. If you never look for it, you are not likely to find it.
 

Not Peralta

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Oroblanco, Amigo, here is some :coffee2: just for you. my hats off to you. you saved me the trouble.:notworthy: :laughing7::laughing7: NP:cat:
 
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Oroblanco

Oroblanco

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I don't expect that our skeptics will do the research, for if they do they will know the Lost Dutchman mine really does exist, and has not been found yet. It is not just a story made up to sell magazines, although a lot of BS has gotten added to the original facts so that if you look at all of it together, it looks like it is all BS. Sift out the later nonsense and you have the basic fact - a very rich gold mine that is well hidden, waiting for someone to dig it up.

:coffee2: :coffee: :coffee2:
 

azblackbird

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Sift out the later nonsense and you have the basic fact - a very rich gold mine that is well hidden, waiting for someone to dig it up.
The business owners of AJ and surrounding areas thank you and all the other Dutch Hunters for your contributions. :thumbsup:
 

Gold Maven

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Hola amigos;
I am starting this thread for the debate and discussion of various evidence (or lack thereof) as to whether the Lost Dutchman gold mine really exists.

Rather than post the extremely long opening argument here, I put it on my personal blog; anyone can read it at:
http://oroblanco.wordpress.com

For some reason the links I tried to include in that post would not work, so I am posting them here for your convenience:

Analyses of rocks and stream sediments of the Superstition Wilderness, Arizona
<Analyses of rocks and stream sediments of the Superstition Wilderness, Arizona>

SUPERSTITION WILDERNESS, ARIZONA.
<SUPERSTITION WILDERNESS, ARIZONA>

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...=4VlyjNe8eAGNtFF935irSw&bvm=bv.92291466,d.eXY
<Geology of the Superstition Wilderness Area by Tom Kollenborn>

So fire away amigos, pro or con.
Oroblanco

:coffee2: :coffee: :coffee2:

I read your first link, very well written, nice job.

However.....the fact that Waltz could produce rich ore, after he sold the Bradshaw claims, doesn't really prove he had another mine that became lost.

He could have had a stash of ore somewhere. I think if you look at it from the other side, you have to agree. That's why normal prospecting for the mine hasn't worked, perhaps the reason there is no trail of gold to follow to his mine, is because it was just a hiding place.

The fact that he sold the Bradshaw claims, makes me wonder why he didn't sell his "lost" mine. He was getting old, and knew how to sell a claim...

Just my friendly opinion, good luck to all the searchers, I would love to see someone find a mine, but I'm skeptical.

:coffee2::occasion14::coffee2:
 

Not Peralta

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Its early have some good hot:coffee2:, There are no grand conclusions to this story, It will be debated forever, there's too many that over the years have put a lot of resources into It
just like any other treasure or lost mine story. the only difference Is there's no facts to this one, none what so ever, even the so called mach box is based on hearsay.the only thing you have
for sure is there was an old man named Jacob Waltz or whatever that was nicknamed the Dutchman that lived in the area. NP:cat:
 

DeepseekerADS

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I've always felt the existence of the mine was actually true. But, not based on any sort of study. As it also lends a bit of credence to the story, what always peaked my interest was the number of deaths and disappearances:

The Lost Dutchman Death Roll | The Life of Adventure

What follows is a comprehensive list of the carnage associated with the search for the Lost Dutchman’s Gold Mine:

1880 – Two soldiers, recently discharged from Fort McDowell, showed up in Pinal, Arizona looking for work at the Silver King Mine. When they showed a bag of gold ore to the Silver King Manager, Aaron Mason, the manager was stunned to see how rich the ore was and immediately began to ask where they had found it.

The soldiers replied that the ore had been picked up while crossing Superstition Mountain, where they had also spied an old mine. Mason bought the ore from the men, outfitted them and entered a partnership with the pair to share in the profits. The two, sure that they could find the place, then headed towards Weaver’s Needle, but after two weeks had not returned. Mason sent out a search party, who found the nude bodies of both men, shot in the head.

1881 – A prospector by the name of Joe Dearing, who was working as a part-time bartender in Pinal, heard the stories of the two dead soldiers and began to look for the lost mine. He soon returned to Pinal, saying that he had found an old mine, describing it as “the most God-awful rough place you can imagine… a ghostly place.” Dearing continued to work as a bartender until he could save enough money for the excavation. To make even more money, he then went to work at the Silver King Mine. Just a week later he was killed in a cave-in without ever disclosing the location to anyone.

1896 – A prospector named Elisha Marcus Reavis, who was better known in the area as the “Madman of the Superstitions” or the “Old Hermit” because he never shaved or cut his hair; he seldom bathed and rumors said he was prone to running naked through the canyons, firing a pistol into the sky. Sure that he was “mad,” even the Apache left him alone. When Reavis hadn’t been seen in some time, one of his few friends went to check on him. The nearly 70 year-old man was found dead about four miles south of his home on a trail near Roger’s Canyon. His head had been severed from his body and was lying several feet away.

1896 – Later that year, two easterners went looking for the lost mine. They were never seen again.

* 1910 – The skeleton of a woman was found in a cave high up on Superstition Mountain. With the body were several gold nuggets. The coroner could tell that the woman’s death was recent, but the gold was never explained.

1927 – A New Jersey man and his sons were hiking the mountain when rocks began to roll down on them from the cliffs above, as if someone had pushed the boulders. One of the boys’ legs was crushed. Just a year later, two dear hunters were driven off the mountain, when again rolling boulders appeared to have been pushed by someone or “something” down the mountain towards them.

1931 – Yet another event added to the legends of Superstition Mountain when Adolph Ruth, a Washington D.C. veterinarian and avid treasure hunting hobbyist went missing in a wilderness area of the peak.

In his search, Ruth utilized a map that his son had obtained in Mexico several years previous, which dated back to the period of the Mexican Revolution (1909-1923), and was later referred to as the Ruth-Peralta map. Ruth was searching for lost Peralta Mines, especially that of the Lost Dutchman. Arriving in the area in May, Ruth convinced two local cowboys to pack him into the mountains, where they left him to his exploring at a place called Willow Springs in West Boulder Canyon around June 14th, 1931.

When nothing had been heard of Ruth for six days, the cowboys’ boss, a man named Tex Barkley, went looking for the treasure hunter. Upon arriving at Ruth’s camp, the rancher could tell that no one had been there in at least a day and reported Ruth missing. A reward was immediately offered by the family and searchers combed the mountain for the next 45 days but Ruth was not found.

Some months later, in December, however; a skull with two holes in it was discovered near the three Red Hills by an archaeological expedition. I turned out to be that of Adolph Ruth. The rest of the treasure hunter’s body would not be found until the next month, in a small tributary on the east slope of Black Top Mesa. Ruth’s treasure map was found at his original campsite.

The headlines were sensational – alleging that Ruth had been murdered for his map. However, the original coroner said that he could not be positive the skull had bullet holes in it. However, Adoph’s son, Erwin, was convinced his father had been killed. Though the coroner acceded that foul play “might” have been involved, the original statement was never changed.

Some believed that Ruth may have died not from foul play, but from the extreme desert heat, and then his body was carried away in parts by wild animals.

1934 – The Superstitions claimed the life of Adam Stewart, cause of death unknown.

1936 – Another life was claimed by the mountain when another hobbyist, Roman O’Hal, a broker from New York, died from a fall when he was searching for the Lost Dutchman.

1937 – An old prospector by the name of Guy “Hematite” Frink was lucky enough to return from the mountain with a number of rich gold samples. In November, he was found shot in the stomach on the side of a trail in or near La Barge Canyon. Next to his decomposing body was a small sack of gold ore.

1938 – A man named Jenkins, along with his wife and two children were having a picnic on the mountain. During their outing Jenkins found a heavy quartz rock that he later learned was heavily laden with gold. However, before he could return to the spot, he had a heart attack. His wife could not remember the location of the find.

In 1945 – A book about the Lost Dutchman Mine was written by Barry Storm, who claimed to have narrowly escaped from a mysterious sniper. Storm speculated that Adolph Ruth might have been a victim of the same sniper.

1947 – A prospector name James A. Cravey made a much-publicized trip into the Superstition canyons by helicopter, searching for the Lost Dutchman Mine. The pilot set him down in La Barge Canyon, close to Weaver’s Needle. When Cravey failed to hike out as planned, a search was started and although his camp was found, Cravey was not.

The following February, his headless skeleton was found in a canyon, a good distance from his camp. It was tied in a blanket and his skull was found about thirty feet away. The coroner’s jury ruled that there was “no evidence of foul play.”

1949 – A man named James Kidd disappeared in the Superstitions.

* 1951 – Dr. John Burns, a physician from Oregon, was found shot to death on Superstition Mountain. The “official” ruling was that the death was accidental.

1952 – A man named Joseph Kelley of Dayton, Ohio was also searching for the lost mine. He vanished and was never seen again. His skeleton was discovered near Weaver’s Needle two years later. The shot in his skull was ruled an accidental shooting incident.

1953 – Two California boys, who were hiking on Superstition Mountain, also vanished. Unfortunately, for these two, nothing was every found of them.

1955 – Charles Massey, who was hunting with a 22, was found shot between the eyes by a heavy-caliber rifle bullet. The coroner ruled it an accidental death resulting from a ricochet.

1956 – A man from Brooklyn, New York reported to police that his brother, Martin Zywotho, who he believed was searching for the Lost Dutchman Mine, had been missing for several weeks. A month later, the missing man’s body was found with a bullet hole above his right temple. Although his gun was found under the body, the death was ruled suicide.

1958 – A deserted campsite was discovered on the northern edge of the mountain. At the campsite were a bloodstained blanket, a Geiger counter, a gun-cleaning kit, but no gun, cooking utensils, and some letters, from which the names and addresses had been torn from. No trace of the camp’s occupant was ever found.

1959 – Two men by the names of Stanley Hernandez and Benjamin Ferreira, thought they had found the “jack-pot.” However, what they actually discovered was pyrite, more often called “Fool’s Gold.” But, these two were sure they had found the elusive mine. Whether out of greed or, some kind of dispute over how they would handle their new found wealth, Hernandez killed his friend Ferreira.

1960 – Robert St. Marie, who was attempted to drill a hole all the way through Weaver’s Needle, was killed by prospector Edward Piper. Two months later, Piper was found dead. The cause of death was said to have been a “perforated ulcer.”

1960 – Two more men who were hiking in the Superstitions that year became involved in some kind of dispute. Lavern Rowlee was shot by Ralph Thomas, who reported that he had been attacked by Rowlee and shot the other man in self-defense.

1960 – A group of hikers found a headless skeleton near the foot of a cliff on Superstition Mountain. Four days later, an investigation determined it belonged to an Austrian student named Franz Harrier.

1960 – Five days later, another skeleton was found, which was identified the next month to be that of William Richard Harvey, a painter from San Francisco. The cause of death was unknown.

1961 – A family picnicking near the edge of the mountain discovered the body of Hilmer Charles Bohen buried beneath the sand. Bohen was a Utah prospector who had been shot in the back.

1961 – Two months later, another prospector from Denver named Walter J. Mowry was found in Needle Canyon. His bullet-ridden body was removed to the coroner’s, who ruled it a suicide.

1961 – Five days later, another skeleton was found, which was later identified as William Richard Harvey, a painter from San Francisco. The cause of death was undetermined.

1961 – Police began searching for a prospector by the name of Jay Clapp, who had been working on Superstition Mountain on and off for a decade and a half. Clapp had been missing since July. After a thorough search, the hunt was called off. Three years later his headless skeleton was finally discovered.

1963 – A man named Vance Bacon, also working to tunnel through Weaver’s Needle, fell to his death. Allegedly, there were rifle shots and indications of foul play.

1964 – Brothers, Richard and Robert Kremis, were found dead at the bottom of a high cliff.

1964 – An elderly couple was found murdered in an automobile.

1970 – A seasoned prospector named Al Morrow was killed by a boulder that fell into a tunnel that he was digging.

1973 – Charles Lewing shot Ladislas Guerrero at a mountain campsite. Lewing claimed self-defense.

1976 – A prospector named Howard Polling was found dead of a gunshot wound. The following year another man named Dennis Brown, was also found dead of a gunshot wound.

1978 – A man named Manuel Valdez was murdered in the Superstitions.

1980 – The skeleton of a man named Rick Fenning was found.

1984 – A prospector named Walt Gassler, who had been searching for the Lost Dutchman for most of his life, was found dead in the Superstitions. In his pack was gold ore, later discovered to be identical to that of the rich ore Jacob Waltz had found earlier.
 

releventchair

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IMO it only exist in some peoples head. Claims of wealth by people in those days, folk stories etc etc all ad up to a non bogus mine

So, by calling it "a non bogus mine " means it exists right? As in not not true.
 

Culinary Caveman

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I tend to believe that there is a mine out there somewhere but I'm not sure about the claims of it's richness. My problem being, why would a guy with an Uber rich gold mine live such a hard scrabble existence on a chicken farm? Isolated, few friends..? Just my thoughts.
 

Azquester

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I tend to believe that there is a mine out there somewhere but I'm not sure about the claims of it's richness. My problem being, why would a guy with an Uber rich gold mine live such a hard scrabble existence on a chicken farm? Isolated, few friends..? Just my thoughts.

Caveman ask yourself this question. If he had a rich gold mine during his deathbed confession and he murdered many men to keep it a secret, can you believe his death confession as being truth and if not what can you believe from those that took care of him in his final moments?

I thought somewhere in some story I read someone claimed to have found the skeleton of his partner Wieser under a rock self with a chain wrapped around the neck. I think I saw photo's of the bones with the chain in a book.
Maybe that would be evidence of his murdering ways and give credence to the deathbed story and lend credibility to the mine story.
Just a little.
 
OP
Oroblanco

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I read your first link, very well written, nice job.

However.....the fact that Waltz could produce rich ore, after he sold the Bradshaw claims, doesn't really prove he had another mine that became lost.

He could have had a stash of ore somewhere. I think if you look at it from the other side, you have to agree. That's why normal prospecting for the mine hasn't worked, perhaps the reason there is no trail of gold to follow to his mine, is because it was just a hiding place.

The fact that he sold the Bradshaw claims, makes me wonder why he didn't sell his "lost" mine. He was getting old, and knew how to sell a claim...

Just my friendly opinion, good luck to all the searchers, I would love to see someone find a mine, but I'm skeptical.

:coffee2::occasion14::coffee2:

Thank you for the kind words - I wish I could have found a way to say it in just a few words however as many people are not willing to read anything too long.
That is making the assumption that the gold Waltz sold, and the only remaining specimen we can actually look at (the matchbox) will match the ore from one or all of his former claims that he sold. If you turn to the back pages of Helen Corbin's first book, Curse of the Lost Dutchman Gold Mine, you will find two sworn affidavits, one from Bob Corbin and the other from Tom Kollenborn. They stated that there had been a comparison of Waltz's gold done at the University of Arizona, School of Mines which had a collection of gold ores from every known mine in the state. It is entirely possible the comparison was done with samples from other states as well since the U of A collection included specimens from many other places. The Waltz gold did not match any known source. This means by extension that it did not match the mines he formerly owned in the Bradshaws because these were known mines. I typed up the relevant sections of those two affidavits and posted them in another thread here not very long ago.

Gold ore is a bit like fingerprints in that no two deposits will have identical features. Each has specific characteristics, and it is possible to compare a specimen and either then prove that it did come from a certain mine, or it did not. We know of a case where this was done - ore from the famous lost Breyfogle mine, was a perfect match for the Amargosa gold mine in California, which is near the Amargosa river and not far from Death Valley. It is certain that Breyfogle had found the same vein that was later found and claimed by someone else, who did not know of the Breyfogle story so named it the Amargosa mine. You don't have to take my word on this, check for yourself.

Why would old timers in Florence recall seeing Waltz in town buying mining supplies, after 1868, some distance from Phoenix, if he had quit prospecting? Would you quit prospecting if you had done it all your life? Waltz had at least 23 years from the time he sold his claims and moved to Phoenix, to have found his famous lost mine and we know that Waltz was able to spot a good gold deposit because he had found several before. The people in Phoenix were not a collection of prospectors, some were pretty bad characters, <just like today> as was proven to Waltz by their attempts to trail him to the mine. If he filed a claim, the exact location becomes public record and he could not very well live at the mine permanently as a sort of fort, to keep the thieves away. At least it makes sense to me, and I have had a rich mine taken away by lawsuit, I can tell you it is not always wise to file a claim even today.

Culinary Caveman wrote
My problem being, why would a guy with an Uber rich gold mine live such a hard scrabble existence on a chicken farm? Isolated, few friends..?

I would also point out that statement about Waltz living "hard scrabble". He owned his homestead, had a house, chickens, and according to John Mitchell, some hogs and grapevines. He does not seem to be in poverty - many poor people do not own their home, and with no mortgage at that. There is no record of Waltz ever going begging, although he seems to have hit the low point of his life in 1878 as his health had taken a bad turn, but he recovered and the man whom would have got his farm died before him.

I see a lot of people make the assumption that Waltz could not have had a rich mine because if he had, he should have dug out all the gold he could get and live like a king. I know several people alive today that are worth millions, yet they live poorer than I do - it is a matter of the individual and how much is enough. Waltz was a prospector and not all prospectors are greedy. He had mined out enough gold for a sort of "emergency fund" and was no longer young. He had no modern mining tools to get that gold out of the rock, so when he was mining, it was by hand tools only and that is a hard labor, slow going task. Plus the Apaches were still on the warpath up to 1886 (Geronimo surrendered) so it was very much a life threatening job to even go to the mine.

Not Peralta wrote
Is there's no facts to this one, none what so ever, even the so called mach box is based on hearsay.the only thing you have
for sure is there was an old man named Jacob Waltz or whatever that was nicknamed the Dutchman that lived in the area. NP
cat.gif

Well that is your definition, I must respectfully disagree. We have eyewitness reports of Waltz selling gold, as well as his bailout of his friends Julia and Reiney - where did he get that gold ore to sell and pay her debt, if not from a mine? The matchbox does exist by the way, and you are mistaken about it only being "hearsay" for it is fairly well documented to Dick Holmes. We have his word that he got it from Waltz, and also Julia and Reiney also stated that Holmes took that box of ore from Waltz. That makes three witnesses. You could go to prison if three witnesses testified against you. We can prove that Waltz was a successful prospector by his claims in the Bradshaws. Were he a shoe maker with zero experience in prospecting, I would see reason to doubt but Waltz had been a successful prospector for a number of years before ever going to Phoenix, and according to a number of witnesses continued to make trips into the mountains after moving to Phoenix and owning no claims, yet was seen selling gold ore after those trips. We might also note that all three of those witnesses concerning the box of gold ore, all went searching for the lost mine too.

For our readers whom do not post, here is a photo of the famous matchbox; it is real and the ore from which it is made is not just pretty it shows characteristics of a type of gold deposit that is rare in Arizona but would fit perfectly with the description of Waltz's mine.

8288f-aematchbox-of-waltz-ore.jpg

Thank you all for the thoughtful replies, I should be working so will sign off.
Oroblanco

:coffee2: :coffee2: :coffee2:
 

Not Peralta

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Amigo,have some hot:coffee2: did you ever think that he might have brought the gold with him from the bradshaws, maybe that's were he killed the men. he may have used his trips into the mnts to make people think that was were he was getting his gold.? : maybe he had to leave the bradshaws.? this research I did years ago, you may find looking into it interesting,I did. NP:cat:
 

azblackbird

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I tend to believe that there is a mine out there somewhere but I'm not sure about the claims of it's richness. My problem being, why would a guy with an Uber rich gold mine live such a hard scrabble existence on a chicken farm? Isolated, few friends..? Just my thoughts.
According to the Dutch Hunters here, Waltz was not a greedy man. Obviously he prospected and mined for gold just for the exercise and his love for the great outdoors. He wasn't in it for the money or riches. He was a very compassionate man and enjoyed helping people who were down on their luck. His meager existence was proof positive that whatever gold he may have found over his lifetime of prospecting was destined for charity purposes only. :thumbsup:
 

Azquester

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According to the Dutch Hunters here, Waltz was not a greedy man. Obviously he prospected and mined for gold just for the exercise and his love for the great outdoors. He wasn't in it for the money or riches. He was a very compassionate man and enjoyed helping people who were down on their luck. His meager existence was proof positive that whatever gold he may have found over his lifetime of prospecting was destined for charity purposes only. :thumbsup:

AZBlackBird,

Really?

Not a greedy man?

On his deathbed he confessed too killing three Mexicans for gold, his partner for gold, two soldiers for gold, an old prospector he never even gave a chance to speak for gold and who knows how many others! Ya, he may have helped Julia a little but he killed many for Gold! And it wasn't just to protect the mine he stole to begin with by murder! He was very Greedy about his Gold!

His meager existence was so he could save money for bullets and shells.

The only charity he gave to was the "Save me myself and I" foundation for the good of his stolen Gold mine!

The Dutchman was not a nice guy.
 

Treasure_Hunter

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Bill what does that have to do with topic of thread.
 

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