Is There Any Evidence that the Lost Dutchman Mine really exists?

[Cubfan64]

Just a quick note/reminder. Clay's last name is spelled Worst, not Wurst

 

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[Oroblanco]

Oro, I have a hard time putting much reliance on any of the Holmes story. That just could be me and it "could" have validity. Its just a long stretch for me.

I personally don't think Waltz said anything on his death bed. Much less the long winded confession story. That's far too Hollywood for me.

For Julia to have been awakened in the wee hours of the morning and having hurried from the house to fetch the doctor, Jacob had taken an abrupt turn for the worse. Most likely exhibiting death rattles. He would have been in no shape to tell anyone anything. If he was awake talking in the fashion Holmes would have us believe, Julia would have waited for morning light to fetch a doctor.

Now, I know that upsets the apple cart for things that come down the line based from that start of the story but that's my take on it.

Old - I am not asking you to put reliance on the Holmes manuscript. There has been some controversy over who or whom really authored it. However that detail about being robbed, is notable for not being mentioned in it. That said, Dick and Brownie Holmes and Clay Worst all spent many years searching for the mine, which if we judge by actions is a form of support for truth in the manuscript.
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Also, it has been argued that Waltz really DID tell Dick Holmes how to find the mine; that Waltz felt he had given enough help to Julia and Reiney in paying her debts, and wanted Holmes to use the gold that was left to finance his search. The caveat was added that Waltz wanted Holmes to do right by his sister, rather than Julia and Reiney.

All of the info we have from Julia and Reiney, via Sims Ely, Jim Bark, Pierpont Bicknell and perhaps Mitchell, has passed through those people as filters. It is even questionable whether Bicknell had his facts right for his first article on the mine (published in the Arizona Weekly Citizen, Nov. 24, 1894 page 3) refers to a "pair of miners" whom one is "Dutch Jacob". The problem is we know of two Dutch Jacobs who operated in the Superstitions, Jacob Waltz and Jacob Ludi. Which one was he really getting the story about, Waltz or Ludi? We don't have anything directly from Waltz, nor Julia, Reiney or Dick Holmes, everything is third hand. This allows for errors, deliberate falsehoods and mixing of stories to enter the picture.

Against this we have the stories from the Pioneer Interviews; if true these are second hand not third hand. Less opportunity for errors and mixing to occur, and we have no Mexicans involved, murders etc. Also we have the story of the Ludis and Peraltas, which is strikingly similar to what is found in Bicknell, Julia/Reiney and even the Holmes version but very different from the Pioneer Interviews story. Considering how many people have been trying to follow the Holmes, Julia and Reiney version for so many years, without success, versus how few have tried following the bare bones information we have from the Pioneer Interviews, which is more likely, or unlikely?

 

[cactusjumper]

Just a quick note/reminder. Clay's last name is spelled Worst, not Wurst

Paul,

Thanks! These days, I'm lucky if I can spell my own name correctly.

Take care,

Jooe

 

[Loke]

As far as the now (in)famous sock-coffee is concerned, I must (dis)respectfully report that it is absolutely edible ... hmmm, well, _drinkable_ ...
I can judge on this from personal experience, at first somewhat (as you can imagine) hesitantly, but when there is no other choice ... down the hatch it goes!! :-) :-)

 

[coazon de oro]

Oroblanco's sock coffee, seems to be like a Fear Factor challenge.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

true joe, true.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

yer lucky Loke. The last time we met I had to buy a cuppa coffee from Oxo.

 

[sdcfia]

Old - I am not asking you to put reliance on the Holmes manuscript. There has been some controversy over who or whom really authored it. However that detail about being robbed, is notable for not being mentioned in it. That said, Dick and Brownie Holmes and Clay Worst all spent many years searching for the mine, which if we judge by actions is a form of support for truth in the manuscript.
<cut>

Perhaps a more accurate way of putting it would be to say, "... a form of support for belief in the manuscript."

 

[Old]

Oro,

From my distant observation post <g> I would agree that there has been much mixing of the various lost mine stories. It is near impossible to sort them out. Even I tried hard to tie the Deering story to Jacob's mine(s) without success. I couldn't make the time lines work. So.........the Deering mine is on my "could be" shelf for further review.

I don't attribute Jake not telling of the Reed robbery as a sign it never happened. For the reasons I previously posted. Waltz was ashamed he let down his guard to allow that to happen. Now Reed, on the other hand, told the story at every opportunity. Being on the winning side of that confrontation was a matter of some pride to him. Although it takes a special kind of person to see honor in claim jumping and robbing an elderly old prospector. That aspect of Reed’s character wasn't lost on Worst. Worst writes that Reed, even in his advanced age, had a certain aura about him that caused Worst (then a young and able man) to give Reed a wide berth and not press issues which might give rise to hostilities.

Now to a discussion of Dick Holmes and the hapless Julia and Reiney. Keep in mind this is my speculation from my distant observation post and crystal ball. Did Waltz give Holmes at some point directions to the mine? I doubt it. Seems he searched in many directions. Doesn't sound like someone who had been pointed in a singular direction.

As to Julia and Reiney, it appears to me Waltz well knew neither of them were up to the job. I believe Jake thought they were "maybe" capable of recovering his last caches but I highly doubt he thought them capable of working a mine. Discovering it and selling it, maybe. But if that were possible Jake himself could have claimed and sold the rights. Something about its location prohibited that. I think his instructions were more aimed at recovering the caches. I’d suspect Waltz did give them specific details for the location, most of which they promptly forgot or confused for lack of knowledge of the area.

Julia was a cook and baker. I doubt she ventured far from the town sidewalk planks prior to her two ventures in search of the mine. She was not equipped to hike the peaks of the mountains or make any attempts at gold recovery from a lode mine. And; what happened on her first night out? She's robbed of her purse with maps included and left perched on a rock quaking in fear of rattlesnakes. Some chance at finding a "well hidden" mine! Not happening.

Reiney? I dunno? Some say a drinking problem. Who's to know? He seems to have had some mental "issues" that prohibited him from taking on any projects above the most elementary level. Hence, Jake's frustration with him telling him to pay attention. Jake tried, he tried hard to convey the details. You can just hear the frustration level of what Jake had to work with.

I fear I’m at a disadvantage in discussing the Pioneer Interviews. I’m unsure of which interviews you speak. The ones in Ms. Corbin’s book are a dry read and offer little to the puzzle. Are there others where you can direct me?

 

[markmar]

Old

What about Ted Cox clue :
"On making a slight bend , you will see a natural rock formation with the distinct appearance of a Roman-nosed mustang with one ear laid back over a jagged cropped mane . This formation is located at the east end of a hill that looks like a Roman helmet . "



Look at these aerial photos from the same region . Maybe you can recognize the Cox's clue .
Incidentally the horse rock shape from the aerial pic fits like a photocopy with the horse head from the DeGrazia sketch ( reversed ) with Doc Thorne subject .



Just another source .

 

[Oroblanco]

yer lucky Loke. The last time we met I had to buy a cuppa coffee from Oxo.

I hope that I.O.U. is still good

Old wrote

I fear I’m at a disadvantage in discussing the Pioneer Interviews. I’m unsure of which interviews you speak. The ones in Ms. Corbin’s book are a dry read and offer little to the puzzle. Are there others where you can direct me?

Unfortunately I am not even sure where they are kept now. When we first read them I did not attach much credence to them for at the time I was still putting faith in the popular versions. There is not much to the interviews concerning Waltz, the story can be summed up in a couple of lines - that he was known in Florence in the 1870s, that he hired a carpenter to build a portable drywasher for tracing gold to a vein, that he had a rich gold mine somewhere in a side canyon off Pinto creek. The persons telling these few tidbits, seemed a little surprised at the widespread notoriety (and possibly the expanded stories) then attached to a man they knew as simply a successful prospector, when it was "no big secret" about his having a mine in the Superstitions. I am not keeping some part of that version secret, there simply is little detail on the location. One story that I can also recall reading (and had no mention of Pinto creek) did tell of Waltz having a partner also named Jacob but not his last name. At the time my wife and I were researching this aspect (the interviews) I had no idea that I would ever have need to show what I was reading on the internet, and simply wrote down any relevant info for our own use - I should have made photocopies. I think Cubfan did track down the location where they are kept today? Perhaps one of our members here, who lives in Phoenix or near by, can spend a day tracking them down and making copies for everyone to see.

Sdcfia wrote

Perhaps a more accurate way of putting it would be to say, "... a form of support for belief in the manuscript."

Perhaps - however against putting too much reliance in the manuscript, judging actions versus words, Dick Holmes did not follow those directions in his very first trip into the mountains after Waltz died, and later did a systematic search through much (if not the entire) range. These actions are in keeping with someone that did not get a set of directions from Waltz but was following the same route he had once trailed him, and possibly had known of the older Peralta/Ludy story which he presumed had to be the same mine. I did phrase that sentence IF we judge by actions is a FORM of support for truth in the manuscript, rather than absolute proof it is genuine.

Some researchers like to sort the evidence/statements etc from our sources as all true, or all false. Unfortunately it looks like we have a mix of true and false in many of our sources. This continues to our own day, with true facts being mixed with false, making it that much more difficult to sort them out. I am not calling anyone a liar, for we do not know who originally introduced the false information nor when. Waltz himself may have been responsible, for he may have known of the Peralta/Ludy story and simply swapped out the Ludy men for himself and Weisner. We can't even separate Julia/Reiney from Dick Holmes version very well for Dick went to Julia and met with her, after she had given up in her own search but long before we read anything from them. They may have altered their versions (which we read many years later) to fit each other's.

Considering the points about the Pit mine which will line up with the Peralta/Ludy story AND with the Joe Deering story, I think it may be fair to conclude that it is the same mine. Sorting out the different stories from the LDM is difficult but not impossible, an example - Joe Deering found his mine open to the sky, pieces of ore laying around the entrance. The Mitchell story of Pima Indians finding a mine open to the sky, had two skeletal human remains right near it. Deering certainly would have noticed that. The Mitchell story is placed in the Mazatzals, north of the Salt, Deering was south of the river. This is one of the easier comparisons to separate but you see what I mean. Oh and Deering has the now famous "trick in the trail" tidbit - which is today attached to the LDM, perhaps wrongly. Some have mixed the Wagoner ledge story with the LDM too, based on the Whitlow ranch coincidence, ignoring the descriptions of the ores being quite different, and that Wagoner found his gold as a virgin deposit, no sign that anyone had ever struck a pick to it much less a mine shaft dug into it.

More SOCK coffee anyone?

 

[Oroblanco]

PS another point on the Deering/Mitchell stories, but Deering hinted that his mine was in a place that seemed to give him the creeps, he would not spend the night there. The Pima/Soldiers story from Mitchell placed it almost on the crest of the mountains, a place that seems most unlikely to be creepy, more likely to have spectacular views.

 

[markmar]

PS another point on the Deering/Mitchell stories, but Deering hinted that his mine was in a place that seemed to give him the creeps, he would not spend the night there. The Pima/Soldiers story from Mitchell placed it almost on the crest of the mountains, a place that seems most unlikely to be creepy, more likely to have spectacular views.

Oro

I believe Deering found the Haywood's story mine and the Pima soldiers found the Peralta/LDM mine . The clue which have given by the soldiers " You have to pass a tunnel on foot to reach the mine " , I believe they are described the narrow corridor/passage which is an extension of a shape like a cow barn , and I posted the aerial pic with this region in " Deering's trail " thread when I told about the " Three pines " clue .

 

[azdave35]

I hope that I.O.U. is still good

Old wrote


Unfortunately I am not even sure where they are kept now. When we first read them I did not attach much credence to them for at the time I was still putting faith in the popular versions. There is not much to the interviews concerning Waltz, the story can be summed up in a couple of lines - that he was known in Florence in the 1870s, that he hired a carpenter to build a portable drywasher for tracing gold to a vein, that he had a rich gold mine somewhere in a side canyon off Pinto creek. The persons telling these few tidbits, seemed a little surprised at the widespread notoriety (and possibly the expanded stories) then attached to a man they knew as simply a successful prospector, when it was "no big secret" about his having a mine in the Superstitions. I am not keeping some part of that version secret, there simply is little detail on the location. One story that I can also recall reading (and had no mention of Pinto creek) did tell of Waltz having a partner also named Jacob but not his last name. At the time my wife and I were researching this aspect (the interviews) I had no idea that I would ever have need to show what I was reading on the internet, and simply wrote down any relevant info for our own use - I should have made photocopies. I think Cubfan did track down the location where they are kept today? Perhaps one of our members here, who lives in Phoenix or near by, can spend a day tracking them down and making copies for everyone to see.

Sdcfia wrote


Perhaps - however against putting too much reliance in the manuscript, judging actions versus words, Dick Holmes did not follow those directions in his very first trip into the mountains after Waltz died, and later did a systematic search through much (if not the entire) range. These actions are in keeping with someone that did not get a set of directions from Waltz but was following the same route he had once trailed him, and possibly had known of the older Peralta/Ludy story which he presumed had to be the same mine. I did phrase that sentence IF we judge by actions is a FORM of support for truth in the manuscript, rather than absolute proof it is genuine.

Some researchers like to sort the evidence/statements etc from our sources as all true, or all false. Unfortunately it looks like we have a mix of true and false in many of our sources. This continues to our own day, with true facts being mixed with false, making it that much more difficult to sort them out. I am not calling anyone a liar, for we do not know who originally introduced the false information nor when. Waltz himself may have been responsible, for he may have known of the Peralta/Ludy story and simply swapped out the Ludy men for himself and Weisner. We can't even separate Julia/Reiney from Dick Holmes version very well for Dick went to Julia and met with her, after she had given up in her own search but long before we read anything from them. They may have altered their versions (which we read many years later) to fit each other's.

Considering the points about the Pit mine which will line up with the Peralta/Ludy story AND with the Joe Deering story, I think it may be fair to conclude that it is the same mine. Sorting out the different stories from the LDM is difficult but not impossible, an example - Joe Deering found his mine open to the sky, pieces of ore laying around the entrance. The Mitchell story of Pima Indians finding a mine open to the sky, had two skeletal human remains right near it. Deering certainly would have noticed that. The Mitchell story is placed in the Mazatzals, north of the Salt, Deering was south of the river. This is one of the easier comparisons to separate but you see what I mean. Oh and Deering has the now famous "trick in the trail" tidbit - which is today attached to the LDM, perhaps wrongly. Some have mixed the Wagoner ledge story with the LDM too, based on the Whitlow ranch coincidence, ignoring the descriptions of the ores being quite different, and that Wagoner found his gold as a virgin deposit, no sign that anyone had ever struck a pick to it much less a mine shaft dug into it.

More SOCK coffee anyone?

roy..it amazes me that anyone would still follow in holmes footsteps.....first off..no one is really sure waltz gave holmes directions to the mine..my guess is he went out on his own looking for the mine with no directions....second...waltz did not like dick holmes...if he did give him directions to the mine i guarentee he gave him the wrong directions to lead him astray....the only gold holmes ever got was the gold he stole out from under waltz's bed...lol

 

[Oroblanco]

One other thing here, concerning our sources. The book by Sims Ely, The Lost Dutchman's Mine, was first published in 1953. Sims Ely was in his old age when he "wrote" the book, which was really compiled into book form by the editor, whose name escapes me at the moment. Pierpont Bicknell's two main articles about the LDM were published in 1894 and 1895, the 1895 version getting picked up by the news wire service and thus giving birth to the legend. The Holmes manuscript did not get (officially) published until 2000 in Dr Glover's book which focuses on it, although a version is in Helen Corbin's first book on the LDM published in 1990 (I think). John D. Mitchell (of whom some treasure hunters have a very dim opinion) wrote two different versions of the LDM which were first published in book form in 1933 and 1954, respectively, but also appeared in the old Desert magazine. There are numerous other early authors as well, and this site:

Tale of the Lost Dutchman: bibliography, notes and chronology

has a very good compilation of the various books and articles. Some of the more interesting publications are NOT actually ever published, like Walt Gassler's notes, or the two manuscripts written by Adolph Ruth's son Erwin, written in 1931.

More coffee?

 

[Oroblanco]

Dammitol forgot to add the point I meant to in that last post - but Sims Ely's book actually POST dates several other sources. So while Ely did interview Julia (or claimed to have, and actions vs words did go searching for the mine with Jim Bark and later John Chuning) we don't really know exactly when he obtained his information. Bicknell appears to be the first to have done so, unfortunately Bicknell was also not above embellishing and mixing tales. Mitchell's first published work on the LDM appeared in 1933, twenty years before Ely's, but we do not know exactly when he talked to Poston, Julia or Reiney. It is a point of interest that Mitchell stated the value of the gold Waltz dug up to help Julia pay her debt was worth $1500, which in other sources is over $4000, and now has been proven to be closer to that $1500 figure.

AzDave - I too am surprised that people will choose to follow the Holmes manuscript directions, yet who knows, until someone actually proves they have found the LDM to the public, who can say what directions and clues are really accurate? Quien sabe

 

[azdave35]

Dammitol forgot to add the point I meant to in that last post - but Sims Ely's book actually POST dates several other sources. So while Ely did interview Julia (or claimed to have, and actions vs words did go searching for the mine with Jim Bark and later John Chuning) we don't really know exactly when he obtained his information. Bicknell appears to be the first to have done so, unfortunately Bicknell was also not above embellishing and mixing tales. Mitchell's first published work on the LDM appeared in 1933, twenty years before Ely's, but we do not know exactly when he talked to Poston, Julia or Reiney. It is a point of interest that Mitchell stated the value of the gold Waltz dug up to help Julia pay her debt was worth $1500, which in other sources is over $4000, and now has been proven to be closer to that $1500 figure.

AzDave - I too am surprised that people will choose to follow the Holmes manuscript directions, yet who knows, until someone actually proves they have found the LDM to the public, who can say what directions and clues are really accurate? Quien sabe

roy..someone has proved they found the mine...they have the gold to prove it...thats more than i can say for anyone else that claims to have found the mine

 

[Oroblanco]

roy..someone has proved they found the mine...they have the gold to prove it...thats more than i can say for anyone else that claims to have found the mine

Not saying you are wrong there amigo, but we have heard that song before. If they really found it, why not make it public, have an ore comparison done, remove any doubt?

I can prove that we found an old mine too, complete with gold to show for it. That does not make it the LDM.

 

[azdave35]

Not saying you are wrong there amigo, but we have heard that song before. If they really found it, why not make it public, have an ore comparison done, remove any doubt?

I can prove that we found an old mine too, complete with gold to show for it. That does not make it the LDM.
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View attachment 1159482

maybe he doesnt care if everyone thinks he found the ldm...the supers are a wilderness area...some people (the ones with any brains anyway) just get what they can and go...and live happily ever after...i've found many mines also..and they have gold too...but there is a big difference between the gold you and i found in mines..and the gold they found in this mine....

 

[Oroblanco]

maybe he doesnt care if everyone thinks he found the ldm...the supers are a wilderness area...some people (the ones with any brains anyway) just get what they can and go...and live happily ever after...i've found many mines also..and they have gold too...but there is a big difference between the gold you and i found in mines..and the gold they found in this mine....

Maybe. Maybe they didn't find the LDM but did find a gold mine or vein. Maybe that vein isn't even in the Superstitions or Arizona for that matter. Maybe they won big in illegal gambling or some other illicit activity and are trying to explain the sudden wealth by buying some "show" specimens of gold ore and a great story. I was not with them, were you? I hope you don't find me too skeptical for not accepting something posted on the internet, from someone I don't even know a real name as the source.

People have been running scams linked to the LDM for decades - the most famous being Crazy Jake. Jake even had a bar of real gold to show his pigeons, and seemed to be able to get his marks to ask HIM to take their money as investment, rather than his asking for it. That is the mark of a good scam artist.

Not saying your friend(s) are scam artists, just pointing out that it is not that difficult to make such a claim. I could make one up right now, dig up some old photos and post it, and pretend that I found the LDM. I have some income from gold sales too, which could be pointed at as "proof" it must have come from Waltz's mine. It is all too easy to say "I found it" but so far, none have made a public case with any kind of scientific proof like an ore comparison.


For our readers whom do not post, NO that ore in the photo does NOT match the LDM ore. It is epithermal, very fine grain size and as you can see, the quartz color is quite different.

I am taking advantage of our May blizzard to be here indoors boring everyone so my apologies for popping in and out of T-net. I should be working on something so will close here, hope you are all having a great weekend!

Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

PS to AZDave (and everyone) just wanted to add, but to ME, it does not matter if a gold mine really is the LDM or the lost Adams or what ever famous or obscure name is attached to it, so long as it has gold (or silver) and puts cash in the pocket, who cares? Only the people whom want the fame or glory of finding the lost mine, which will prove very fleeting at best.

Coffee all round?