Its End Game

TN_Guest1523 · Jan 20, 2016

bigscoop said:
That was a simple copy and past from an older thread. As I recall "the age" debate at that time was in reference to his age VS the Fincastle Beale which argued that they could not have been the same man. If Tat was still active in these forums I'm sure he could quickly elaborate as he had researched all of this in length but I no longer have all the notes on this stuff.

Thanks, for the help .

ECS · Jan 20, 2016

bigscoop said:
If he was German born, how can he be a native of Virginia? ...

...because he was SWARTHY!

ECS · Jan 20, 2016

bigscoop said:
Swarthy... Even today most of the population generally accepts the phrase "free people of color" to mean Africans, or those with various degrees of African heritage, when in fact, nothing could be further from the truth. When we think of early America, say 1817 - 1885, it is only natural for one to assume that "free people of color" is always in reference to the slave related topics, this same being true of "dark and swarthy complexion". Again, nothing could be further from the truth as there were many well educated "free people of color" in the country who maintained "a dark and swarthy complexion" that were not of African blood...

Swarthy, during that time period, was used to describe Black Dutch, Black Irish, Melungeons, and Cherokees.
http://en.wkipedia.org/wiki/Black-Dutch

bigscoop · Jan 20, 2016

ECS said:
Swarthy, during that time period, was used to describe Black Dutch, Black Irish, Melungeons, and Cherokees.
http://en.wkipedia.org/wiki/Black-Dutch

Still swinging that war-sword, I see. :laughing7:

I believe there have been a few examples already posted in this thread that clearly speak to the contrary, and by first hand, I might add. Jean is well within his premise that swarthy was also used in referenced to the German faction as he has even presented one such first account of that event, and yet you still, at all cost, must keep swing that war-sword despite the overwhelming and factual evidence before you. Remarkable, indeed. Perhaps you might draw upon dictionaries of the era and allow those to be your guide when debating the various definitions of words in any era - like, swarthy, complexion, etc. Do this and you will hopefully understand how words may be properly applied, and why, and of course, why not. "Continuing to pick tiny pebbles from a sea of stones can actually require more time and labor and produce far less production." But I will say this for you, had you been in command of the south during that great American war it would have lasted much longer and cost the south it's very last man. :laughing7:

bigscoop · Jan 20, 2016

Jean Laf said:
Thanks, for the help .

I wish I still had a lot of that old stuff but several state to state moves in recent years and the circumstances surrounding those moves just allowed me to lose track of a great deal of stuff. Also, many of the old sites/links no longer exist any many of these resources have also been gobbled up by the pay/membership sites. I think I do still have at least one tote of this older stuff in storage over at my son's place but not really sure?

bigscoop · Jan 20, 2016

Jean Laf said:
Possibly why Beale then shot him in a dual .

Born of German descendant's is what I think the insult there was .

PV's book page 129-131

I have stated many times in these various threads that the famous duel was over family insult, and that this insult might have even been administered by the girl herself. There existed a noticeable divide in all of these family branches, even periods of bad blood between some of them. Thomas Beale enters these extended branches through the marriage of his sister into one these extended branches. It makes for an interesting study should one desire to spend all of the required time in search of those various divides and differences within these all of these individuals. Somewhat surprised that more duels didn't occur.

ECS · Jan 20, 2016

bigscoop said:
... Perhaps you might draw upon dictionaries of the era and allow those to be your guide when debating the various definitions of words in any era - like, swarthy, complexion, etc...

It is interesting to note that dictionaries of that era define "swarthy" as also having the meaning of gloomy and, strangely enough, evil.

ECS · Jan 20, 2016

bigscoop said:
... But I will say this for you, had you been in command of the south during that great American war it would have lasted much longer and cost the south it's very last man.

"Come Retribution"

bigscoop · Jan 20, 2016

ECS said:
It is interesting to note that dictionaries of that era define "swarthy" as also having the meaning of gloomy and, strangely enough, evil.

Well, according to our author our man was anything but gloomy, and as for evil, well,.......I guess that can be subjective opinion depending on which side of the fence one is on. :laughing7:

bigscoop · Jan 20, 2016

ECS said:
"Come Retribution"

....OK

ECS · Jan 20, 2016

bigscoop said:
I have stated many times in these various threads that the famous duel was over family insult, and that this insult might have even been administered by the girl herself. There existed a noticeable divide in all of these family branches, even periods of bad blood between some of them. Thomas Beale enters these extended branches through the marriage of his sister into one these extended branches. It makes for an interesting study should one desire to spend all of the required time in search of those various divides and differences within these all of these individuals. Somewhat surprised that more duels didn't occur.

Well, now you are back to the "all in family" that I have mentioned countless times.
Why don't you illuminate the branches of this extended bloodline that had "bad blood".
You always make claims, and never back them up. En guarde.

bigscoop · Jan 20, 2016

ECS said:
Well, now you are back to the "all in family" that I have mentioned countless times.
Why don't you illuminate the branches of this extended bloodline that had "bad blood".
You always make claims, and never back them up. En guarde.

Pointed you directly to some of these sources very early in this thread, even told you the years in which to start looking. Others have already found some of it.... :thumbsup:

Rebel - KGC · Jan 20, 2016

ECS said:
Well, now you are back to the "all in family" that I have mentioned countless times.
Why don't you illuminate the branches of this extended bloodline that had "bad blood".
You always make claims, and never back them up. En guarde.

A Duel! POP-CORN! PEANUTS! BEE ALE!

bigscoop · Jan 20, 2016

What I have said in regards to your all in the family theory, more then once and in various ways, is that you have never allowed yourself to detach from all of the romance and lore so that you can entertain the possibilities. Clearly you still haven't. Nothing I can do about that. Maybe put down that sword and do review of the many post in this thread with open mind. Up to you.

ECS · Jan 20, 2016

A typical Bigscoop evasive reply, while you continue to create NEW lore to surround the Beale Papers.

bigscoop · Jan 20, 2016

ECS said:
A typical Bigscoop evasive reply, while you continue to create NEW lore to surround the Beale Papers.

"Clay, Coles, Witcher, Jackson, and Chief Justice Marshall"......and even after the author clearly identifies them as "leading men of the country" you still insisted that they were all locals, until after "many" claims of such, that this was just recently pointed out to you. "Evasive?"...truth is that you just continue to wage war and evade yourself. :thumbsup:

GOLDandSilver · Jan 20, 2016

franklin said:
Catherine Beale Jordan was Thomas Beale's sister from Shenandoah County, Virginia. Correct.

OK, Thomas Jefferson Beales father or grandfather=Thomas Jefferson, and the purpose behind the Jackson Ward experiment was something to do with eugentics and elevating the black man through race mixing? Making an eventual state in which all free men of color were to be confined? ah...Getting all blacks in one area to make sending them to Liberia easier??

LOL I'm only on pg. 16, have never read the Beale papers and have no idea what they're about. The route maybe related to the Louis & Clark expedition that Thomas Jefferson was behind. I'm just guessing but aren't all TJefferson's children by Sally Hemmings well documented? If so then it stands to reason that TJB is a love child of someone else close like this? I'm laughing at myself I have zero clue what this is about, I'm just intrigued by the "reveal" puzzle aspect.

If there is some treasure involved (JIC I'll add this) maybe it's something from the L&C expedition that TJB was told of? Was TJB the love child of Madison, Adams,

and a slave...I feel like I'm writing an episode of General Hospital. OH wait, big with the ladies, contemporary of Thomas Jefferson...AHA I got it, Benjamin Franklin! The REAL father of our country. He would have known all about the L&C expedition...and maybe had some kinky eugentics ideas as well.

now I shall continue reading to see if I got anything right or if I need to put down my Hobbit Tobacco and just watch the Vikings.

GOLDandSilver · Jan 20, 2016

ECS said:
Well, lets examine what the author told us:
"in person he was about six feet in height, with jet black eyes and hair the same color...but his distinguishing feature was a dark and swarthy complexion, as if much exposure to the sun a weather had discolored him...he was the model of manly beauty favored by the ladies and envied by men"...(to the ladies)" he was reverentially tender and kind".
And : (Beale was)"extremely popular with everyone, particularly the ladies, and a friendly intercourse was quickly established between them".
Customs and morals in 1820 Virginia were very different than today, as Virginia had very strong anti-miscegenation laws forbidding the mixing of different races. No where does the author refer to Beale as a man of color, and would the ladies of 1820 Bedford swoon over a man of color?
The author clearly states that his complexion was caused by "exposure to the sun and weather", not the Beale was a man of color.

Actually the races mixed quite a bit until after the RevWar. Examining early colonial documents would show that. I've seen marriages of "married her negro slave man" for a white woman...lots of that sort of thing when you start digging in genealogy. After the RevWar things started to change and by the time the Civil War ended, color in your skin was something you had better be able to explain or you weren't going to get your pension. (I know this because of genealogy and the fact that my relations said they were Black Irish and their father just came to America before the War. They got away with it, but the family gets a laugh considering their ggdaddy fought in the RevWar, but their secret color was Red, not black, which could be listed as Mulatto, colored, white, or Indian. Thus one wonders if "swarthy complexion" in this mystery means black...does "of color" automatically mean black?

Clearly I'm in the wrong time-frame with Benjamin Franklin and Thomas Jefferson, but it was exciting while it lasted!

GOLDandSilver · Jan 20, 2016

bigscoop said:
So-so glad you considered this. Now consider the following two points of interest.
A) How did Morriss, a man who had fallen in serious reversals, afford to open and operate his plush establishment?
B) What, exactly, was the attraction that drew so many influential slave owners to the Lynchburg region, and in particular, his establishment?

We have all types of histories/history written by people of color but in many cases the only way we know this is because the authors are clearly identified, otherwise we might have just as easily assumed them to have been white.

A)
Negro Hookers
b) Negro hookers that white slave owners could impregnant for the eugenics experiment?

A) Moonshine?
B) Hookers, see above

LOL what? I'm reaching here...Sekrit Masonic Message?

GOLDandSilver · Jan 20, 2016

bigscoop said:
Yes, yes, you keep telling me that. Apparently the issue is that you and I have been reading different pamphlets, mine containing names and details such as Thomas J. Beale, dark and swarthy, Richmond, etc, etc, etc, and your's containing names and details such as Grandpa Risque, his fabulous library, Book Sellers, Sherlock Holmes, etc., etc., etc.

Have you noticed that each and every time your desperation drives you post something in another effort to slam the door on this new theory that YOU keep slamming and smashing your hand in the door jam?

OK, unless the secret is specifically related to his race, then...if he were a black man, or even half and half but dark in appearance, why wouldn't the author just say "Negro"? However if the complexion, as if he were in the sun (red like the sun)*natural*Jet Black Hair/Eyes, and the ladies liked him, could be Indian fellow, mixed Indian, or a Semetic, Arabic, yada yada Asian Indian..(although a bit tall for Indians in general they do come tall in the North). At least I'm thinking/floating outside the box here

Yes Blacks and Natives owned slaves. In fact, the first legal slave owner, and the man responsible for all slavery in the US, was a black man. There may have been restrictions in some states, but they were slave owners amongst them.