jumping through hoops for a permit

[blackchipjim]

Good afternoon all, I was recently trying to obtain a permit to metal detect on the local public park system and what a trip that was. I called after to trying to look up it up online in the sites glossary. I finally just called and talked to a gentleman that was himming and hawing and was sympathetic and said would get back to me later. I assured him it was just recreational and would be a good boy and not leave the place looking like a scene from the movie caddie shack. I have yet to receive a call and think it was just a blow off but we will see. Wish me luck.

 

[Loco-Digger]

Do the rules state that a permit is required?

 

[Jason in Enid]

Where did you read that you need a permit?

 

[Tom_in_CA]

I agree with loco-digger and Jason: Is a permit "required" ? If so, by all means get it. But if not, then you may have just swatted the proverbial "hornet's nest". If there's no "permits" or "prohibitions" (ie.: rules saying no md'ing), then just go.

 

[kcm]

I agree with loco-digger and Jason: Is a permit "required" ? If so, by all means get it. But if not, then you may have just swatted the proverbial "hornet's nest". If there's no "permits" or "prohibitions" (ie.: rules saying no md'ing), then just go.

...Albeit, respectfully. Even if you're out in the wilderness, fill in your holes and try to prevent dug vegetation (grass, weeds) from dying due to your digs.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

...Albeit, respectfully. Even if you're out in the wilderness, fill in your holes and try to prevent dug vegetation (grass, weeds) from dying due to your digs.

Correct. Anytime the "just go" notion is advanced, Yes: the md'r should also not think this means to flaunt defiance, waltz over people's beach blankets at an archie convention, snoop at obvious historic sensitive monument, carry shovels around manicured turf, etc....

So you're right. To be "not dis-allowed" still doesn't mean we don't use common sense to avoid busy-bodies who might gripe. Eg.: at low traffic times (to avoid the eye-magnet that our hobby obviously is), etc.... And note: All of which are not avoided and pre-empted by seeking permissions ahead of time either. On the contrary, that only accelerates the un-due attention.

 

[wingmaster]

If it's not marked with no detecting then never ask it only opens up someone to see a need to make it illegal to detect, by all means make sure you leave like it was before you got there. I always carry a hand towel to put the extra dirt on as it's impossible to get all your dirt back in the hole if you just pile it up on the grass next to your hole, most times you will get a no answer if they don't know for sure if it's legal or not just to cover their butt as it's just easier to say no than for them to actually check. Most people think of you digging a giant hole with a regular shovel, many times asking permission on private property I had to explain how I go about digging my targets before they understood that I wasn't going to leave their yard a wreck. HH

 

[Keppy]

I live in Ohio and i hunt parks and i never checked about permits and never had a problem ... When you have a problem it is always because you ask for permits or permission .. That is were all the problems come for you people that think you have to ask the government stay away from those people you just cause your self and others problems..

 

[blackchipjim]

In response to the laws is such, Yes you do need to check with local park rangers before you md in ohio parks. I applied for a local permit for the county parks and waiting for approval of use. The beaches are open to md on state lands but not the parks without special permit. I called the local state park and got the go ahead for two beaches. It was stated that the park is off limits. The only National forest is off limits to md but not recreational panning nor is state property as long as the waterway is on state land. This is not gospel but just what I learned by asking information on the phone. I never did nor will I ever argue with a ranger because they are the law.

 

[kcm]

In response to the laws is such, Yes you do need to check with local park rangers before you md in ohio parks. I applied for a local permit for the county parks and waiting for approval of use. The beaches are open to md on state lands but not the parks without special permit. I called the local state park and got the go ahead for two beaches. It was stated that the park is off limits. The only National forest is off limits to md but not recreational panning nor is state property as long as the waterway is on state land. This is not gospel but just what I learned by asking information on the phone. I never did nor will I ever argue with a ranger because they are the law.

I'm with you on not arguing with law enforcement, but law enforcement is NOT the law. They have a better-than-average understanding of the law, but the law is often very confusing, which is why we need lawyers. ...Gee, who is it that has made laws so confusing over the years?!?!?

 

[Jason in Enid]

In response to the laws is such, Yes you do need to check with local park rangers before you md in ohio parks. I applied for a local permit for the county parks and waiting for approval of use. The beaches are open to md on state lands but not the parks without special permit. I called the local state park and got the go ahead for two beaches. It was stated that the park is off limits. The only National forest is off limits to md but not recreational panning nor is state property as long as the waterway is on state land. This is not gospel but just what I learned by asking information on the phone. I never did nor will I ever argue with a ranger because they are the law.

yeah, see right here is where you could have avoided a LOT of confusion. Your first post said you were looking at a " local public park system ". If you had said STATE PARK that would have been a lot clearer. A "local public park" is a city park, a neighborhood park, but not a state park.

 

[MrMikeJackie]

Still I find it strange that a "permit" is required yet you are waiting on approval? It's either you need one and they give it to you or it's not needed because it's not allowed to begin with, or it doesn't exist because it was never required.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

In response to the laws is such, Yes you do need to check with local park rangers before you md in ohio parks. I applied for a local permit for the county parks and waiting for approval of use. The beaches are open to md on state lands but not the parks without special permit. I called the local state park and got the go ahead for two beaches. It was stated that the park is off limits. The only National forest is off limits to md but not recreational panning nor is state property as long as the waterway is on state land. This is not gospel but just what I learned by asking information on the phone. I never did nor will I ever argue with a ranger because they are the law.

black-chip-jim, here are the state park rules for Ohio. Please show us where, on here, it says that you must "check with them before md'ing". I only see that on the "FAQ's" (bless the little hearts of all those md'rs who went before "frequently asking", eh ? )

I do not believe that a "FAQ" constitutes "law". That's just someone's "commentary". As opposed to codified law. Because in the SAME FASHION people have been known to get "no's", where, quite frankly, you can hunt till you're blue in the face. And there's no laws saying "no md'ing". So just because someone fetches a "no" via calling bored desk clerks, or fetching it via a "FAQ", doesn't make it law.

And as for cities and counties, pray-tell: Where are you seeing that you must get their permission and inquire of permits? At BEST I see this notion (albeit only in the FAQ) on the state. But why are you thinking you need to do this at every other podunk town you drive to ? Would you inquire if you're allowed to fly frisbee or sit on the park bench ? Me thinks you're swatting hornet's nests.

 

[blackchipjim]

Sorry for any confusion on specific parks. I was inferring State parks and not local since you do have to check local park rules. I was in the process of county parks permit which surprisingly I received today. This allows me to md on county parks that I requested to for a three month time. State parks I thought I read are off limits to md unless ok'd by local leo in ohio. I did also state that the only federal forest is also off limits to md. I will clarify the national forest law here as I read it. Normal md is not prohibited unless it could contain artifacts or relic that may occur in certain areas. Where those are I don't have a clue I hunted the Wayne national forest before. If I caused confusion my apologies to all.

 

[Loco-Digger]

I hunt the local state park (in Ohio) all the time, the permits are issued bu the local park manager. I just stop by the park office and the manager prints me one up, and they are good through the end of the year.

 

[Loco-Digger]

black-chip-jim, here are the state park rules for Ohio. Please show us where, on here, it says that you must "check with them before md'ing". I only see that on the "FAQ's" (bless the little hearts of all those md'rs who went before "frequently asking", eh ? )

I do not believe that a "FAQ" constitutes "law". That's just someone's "commentary". As opposed to codified law. Because in the SAME FASHION people have been known to get "no's", where, quite frankly, you can hunt till you're blue in the face. And there's no laws saying "no md'ing". So just because someone fetches a "no" via calling bored desk clerks, or fetching it via a "FAQ", doesn't make it law.

And as for cities and counties, pray-tell: Where are you seeing that you must get their permission and inquire of permits? At BEST I see this notion (albeit only in the FAQ) on the state. But why are you thinking you need to do this at every other podunk town you drive to ? Would you inquire if you're allowed to fly frisbee or sit on the park bench ? Me thinks you're swatting hornet's nests.

Tom, the only area that can be hunted in Ohio state parks without a permit is the sand beaches. All other detecting is only allowed if you get a permit from the Park Manager.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

.... State parks I thought I read are off limits to md unless ok'd by local leo in ohio.....

I checked by Ohio state park's list : http://parks.ohiodnr.gov/rules And I do not see anything that says "no metal detecting". About the closest I could see, as I alluded to in my earlier post, was an FAQ answer that beaches are ok, but check at land sites, or something to that effect.

And this creates an interesting question: Does "FAQ" constitute law ? Or is it merely "commentary" ? What I mean by "commentary", is for example: You can walk into some cities or counties (or states, etc...) and ask some desk clerk: "Hi. Can I metal detect?". And they might say "no" (because they think you'll harm the sand crabs or earthworms). Yet truth be told, it's nowhere written in the law actually saying "no detecting". Ie.: the "safe answer" routine. So an FAQ is nothing more than a glorified version of this, IMHO. I'm not sure if it constitutes law.

For example, look down the list of the FMDAC's state by state listing. You will see MULTIPLE states that have similar "inquire at each kiosk you come to" type answer. Eh ? And legions of md'rs have assumed that "asking is required". But a closer look at the back-ground evolution of those statements, is that decades ago, when such lists like the FMDAC's were compiled, someone simply inquired at all 50 states asking "what are your rules regarding md'ing?" And then simply compiled the answers into these lists. Some of the states admittedly answered the question by pointing to actual law/rules (if there was one) that might say "no detecting" or "$20 permit" or whatever. Others might have said "no prohibition". But a BUNCH OF OTHERS came back with answers like "with permission" or "inquire at each kiosk", etc... But WHEN YOU LOOK CLOSER at the actual laws, there is NO SUCH REQUIREMENT. It's merely the commentary sent back to the inquirer who was compiling a list.

And the reason for this "safe" answer is easy: Because let's be honest: Some parks might be historically themed sensitive monuments, right ? While the other 99% are just beaches, ball fields, forests , etc..... So rather than split hairs (envisioning geeks with shovels), they just say "ask at each one" or "at the discretion of the ranger on duty" . Sure, the "ranger on duty" can decide you're harming the earthworms. He's more than welcome to come alert me. So too can he decide that flying frisbees "might poke someone's eye out". Or that your boom box music is "too loud". But no one thinks for a moment that he "needs permission" to fly frisbee or listen to a boom box. Even though, yes, it's up to the discretion of a passing ranger.

I'm going to make a separate new thread to see if other forumites equate FAQ's with iron-clad law. You've brought up an interesting question.

As for National forests: Not disallowed. If you need to see the verbiage/text on that, let me know and I'll link you. The only thing that would apply, is ARPA. So don't find anything over 50 yrs. old, and you're looking for "modern change" (or meteorites, etc...). How good is your math ?

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Tom, the only area that can be hunted in Ohio state parks without a permit is the sand beaches. All other detecting is only allowed if you get a permit from the Park Manager.

View attachment 1406701

Loco, thanx for the link and screen capture. I had failed to find it because I used the key word search "metal", and they have it as "metallic". I stand corrected then, in this particular state's case. But for others, if such codified law doesn't exist, then I do not consider commentary to be "law" Nor does such a case mean that md'rs need to ask elsewhere either. Just as in the case of Ohio at the state level, they can look up the laws for themselves (being careful to do their key-word searches carefully , doh! )

 

[islanderca]

"(B) Not withstanding paragraph (A) of this rule" In other words, In spite of paragraph (A) metal detecting is permitted without written permission with a few exceptions.

Paragraph (A) seems more like a call before you dig rule for the construction industry so they don't hit any sewer, gas, water electrical pipes as they dig foundations. In my neck of the woods, even home owners doing yard upgrades have to call(We have tons of naturals gas lines here) and of they don't, they are on the hook for all expenses if they break any.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

"(B) Not withstanding paragraph (A) of this rule" In other words, In spite of paragraph (A) metal detecting is permitted without written permission with a few exceptions.

Paragraph (A) seems more like a call before you dig rule for the construction industry so they don't hit any sewer, gas, water electrical pipes as they dig foundations. In my neck of the woods, even home owners doing yard upgrades have to call(We have tons of naturals gas lines here) and of they don't, they are on the hook for all expenses if they break any.

Islanderca, good catch. The part B says you can hunt, without permission, on the beach or mowed areas. Hmmm, "mowed areas" sounds like land sites to me . Even though part A just said "from any lands". Well gee, what's the distinction between "mowed areas", and drifting over to some spot, directly adjacent, that isn't "mowed" ? And is anyone really standing around splitting hairs on grass that is "mowed" versus "not mowed"? I doubt it . So I would tend to agree that the part A is probably boiler plate to protect historic sensitive monuments, or some such application for those who are being a nuisance in some way.

But this type verbiage (despite part B which allows it w/o permission) is what keeps the skittish showing up at desks all over the place seeking princely blessings. Which does nothing more than make this a "pressing issue" all the time on their plate. Which will someday be "clarified" and just outright banned. Since it's perpetually on their radar via the constant request for hand-holding.