Kirk Snapped Base or Kirk Broke Base

[Tnmountains]

Robert Overstreet Typed this point as a snapped base point. It has been "hotly" (understatement) debated by hunters and collectors since being published. I am going to show 2 examples I found in almost the exact same area if not the same area that he hunted here in Tennessee. Most examples he shows are from Tennessee. One I am showing I dug from a rock shelter the other was from an open air site. In one of his books his description on this type is as follows.

9000 to 6000 bp. Location : Southeastern to Eastern States. Description: A medium to large size,usually serrated blade with long tangs and a base that has been snapped or fractured off. The shoulders are also fractured on some examples. This proves that the fracturing was intentional as in Decatur and other types.

I do not know if it is a true type or just a broken Kirk. The examples I have show the same patina at the break or snap as the rest of the point and seems that the break or snap was done during manufacture. The quality of the knapping is very skilled though the pictures may not show it.

So is it broke or snapped? If snapped why? Feel free to post any like examples and give your opinions on what they were doing 11,000 years ago. Be nice to see other like examples for comparison.
Thanks !!





2nd knife/point

 

[rock]

Why even make a base when the point is being knapped, if you are going to deliberately "snap" it off after you finish the point, or shall we say, knife. I'm no expert, but IMO most are broken by farm equipment during cultivation.

Welcome to Tnet dog. Looking forward to seeing some great finds from you.

 

[Twitch]

I don't know. I'm not a brain surgeon, I don't play one on TV.

A couple of quick points (some pun intended). The term 'snapped' is misleading. I don't think anyone should be suggesting that they crafted a finely made and balanced kirk base and then snapped it off to haft the blade That wouldn't make sense now, it surely didn't make sense then. No question on that in my mind. Are the bases a less artistic and more crudely made (by our standards) portion of the artifact, but nonetheless original per it's maker? I think it's possible primarily for two reasons. First, this base type I find on a higher percentage of Kirk blades then on similarly structured other blades. Certainly the stem is a weak point on many types but the 'snapped' base configuration is more common in my experience in Kirk than in other types. Second, many of these blades I find have stem flake patterns that are, or at least to me seem to be, inconsistent with modern damage or ancient use damage. I think they're made that way.

Someone with some time on their hands should try to haft one of these blades and see if they are less stable. If they can't be hafted and utilized effectively then for me it ends the debate, they must be damaged. If they can be hafted and used then it leaves open the possibility that it's an intentional design element of the artifact.

just my 2 cents.

 

[NC field hunter]

I don't know. I'm not a brain surgeon, I don't play one on TV.

A couple of quick points (some pun intended). The term 'snapped' is misleading. I don't think anyone should be suggesting that they crafted a finely made and balanced kirk base and then snapped it off to haft the blade That wouldn't make sense now, it surely didn't make sense then. No question on that in my mind. Are the bases a less artistic and more crudely made (by our standards) portion of the artifact, but nonetheless original per it's maker? I think it's possible primarily for two reasons. First, this base type I find on a higher percentage of Kirk blades then on similarly structured other blades. Certainly the stem is a weak point on many types but the 'snapped' base configuration is more common in my experience in Kirk than in other types. Second, many of these blades I find have stem flake patterns that are, or at least to me seem to be, inconsistent with modern damage or ancient use damage. I think they're made that way.

Someone with some time on their hands should try to haft one of these blades and see if they are less stable. If they can't be hafted and utilized effectively then for me it ends the debate, they must be damaged. If they can be hafted and used then it leaves open the possibility that it's an intentional design element of the artifact.

just my 2 cents.

Don't lie to these people. May not be a brain surgeon, but super smart guy!! How was Singapore? Sorry for interrupting the thread guys. Glad you back bro!

 

[Road Dog]

They wouldn't be hafted any different than a Morrow Mountain. I think there are snap base points. Intentional or not I don't know. I use to have a nice side notch (bolen type) that was snap base. You wouldn't know it till you looked at the end of the point.

 

[rock]

They wouldn't be hafted any different than a Morrow Mountain. I think there are snap base points. Intentional or not I don't know. I use to have a nice side notch (bolen type) that was snap base. You wouldn't know it till you looked at the end of the point.

Thank you for posting that. I was thinking the same thing as to how there can be so many different Morrows and only one of these types. Id like to see how the round base mm was hafted if anyone knows or has a pic of one.

 

[Tnmountains]

I don't know. I'm not a brain surgeon, I don't play one on TV.

A couple of quick points (some pun intended). The term 'snapped' is misleading. I don't think anyone should be suggesting that they crafted a finely made and balanced kirk base and then snapped it off to haft the blade That wouldn't make sense now, it surely didn't make sense then. No question on that in my mind. Are the bases a less artistic and more crudely made (by our standards) portion of the artifact, but nonetheless original per it's maker? I think it's possible primarily for two reasons. First, this base type I find on a higher percentage of Kirk blades then on similarly structured other blades. Certainly the stem is a weak point on many types but the 'snapped' base configuration is more common in my experience in Kirk than in other types. Second, many of these blades I find have stem flake patterns that are, or at least to me seem to be, inconsistent with modern damage or ancient use damage. I think they're made that way.

Someone with some time on their hands should try to haft one of these blades and see if they are less stable. If they can't be hafted and utilized effectively then for me it ends the debate, they must be damaged. If they can be hafted and used then it leaves open the possibility that it's an intentional design element of the artifact.

just my 2 cents.

Would they need to grind the sides to haft this knife?

 

[theonlinefisherman]

Snap bases are common here in Florida. They knocked the sides, snapped off the base, and works basal knotches in from the snapped end. It is really snapped, though, not works. That looks more like a worked base than the snaps we have here. They are clearly broken on purpose. I am on my iPad again and do not know how to put pictures up on forums.



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[Twitch]

Would they need to grind the sides to haft this knife?

tnmountain - I don't know. I know very little about what makes a good haft vs. a bad haft. Certainly there are more unground points than ground points so I wouldn't guess that it's a must or a deal breaking for it being an intentional design point.

NC - thanks. I'm actually still gone. Will be back on Friday.

 

[11KBP]

Here are a few of my examples of Pelican Lake points with their bases snapped of.
Does that make them a separate type …of course not, they were broken during use,
just like the kirks and various other stemmed points that break off at their weak point.
Kirks with snapped base being considered as a separate type is a joke. However a few
dealers have made some extra $$$ from those who bought into this commercial invention.

 

[rock]

Those are some nice examples 11K. So do you think they threw them away after they broke? That I believe is one of the questions. And if not then how were they used.

 

[theonlinefisherman]

Those are Beautiful!!! Man, is this a cool place to hang out

I think they are undamaged, Rock. I can show you how they knapped them. It takes two series of knotches. The first one cuts into the shoulders at a 90. You then hold the blade and percussion the "tail" that the two shoulder-knotches (it looks like a sandy with. Big long base hanging off of it) leave behind, and it snaps off.

Then you knotch the two basals knotches up towards the point.. It is one of my favorite points to make to give people as gifts from Florida . I make them from coral heat-treated slabs. I mark initials on them because they could have a patina put on them by a dirtbag. I mark them where you would break them to flake them clean. I will show you guys one offline if you ever want to see. But I buy snap bases from Florida anytime I can lay my hands on them for decent prices. The market has some of them is at $250-$300 already. It ain't long before they are out of reach unless you find them yourself on private land.





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[1320]

Those are some nice examples 11K. So do you think they threw them away after they broke? That I believe is one of the questions. And if not then how were they used.

Perhaps like this?

 

[1320]

If these were breaking at the weakest link, I don't think it would have taken me a few thousand years to figure something else out...lol.

 

[theonlinefisherman]

Here is a fake from my hands. Marked tiny, but Bennett would sure see it. The question I have is what weak part snapped off? Was it a turkey tail? Why do all the snaps look like the one I did?














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[rock]

Thanks for the info. I sent you a pm onlinefisherman did you get it?

 

[11KBP]

Those are some nice examples 11K. So do you think they threw them away after they broke? That I believe is one of the questions. And if not then how were they used.

Do I think they threw them away? Not really, …I assume these dart points broke during use
and were lost/abandoned the same way so many unbroken points were. When a dart shaft
or foreshaft was retrieved from a targeted animal and it was seen that the stem was the only
part of the point remaining in the haft do you think the hunter was concerned about where the
rest of the point was? He would be much more interested in the dart shaft and/or foreshaft.
Knapping a point was easy and took very little time. By the same token, a lot of time and effort
were expended in the manufacturing of dart shafts.

 

[Tnmountains]

I thought these kirks were knifes though? Are you saying they went on an atlatl? I am ignorant to their use.

 

[11KBP]

If these were breaking at the weakest link, I don't think it would have taken me a few thousand years to figure something else out...lol.

What is to say they didn’t have it figured out to work just the way they wanted it to 1320?

As I stated in my previous post, the projectile point was secondary with the shaft being a much more
valued part of the weapons system. A panicked animal with a dart sticking out of it has a very good
chance of breaking the shaft unless something gives. With the violent motions of a hit animal there is
a lot of movement and stress put on the shaft, if the stem of the barbed point breaks the shaft has a
much better chance of falling away and surviving for another hunt.

 

[11KBP]

I thought these kirks were knifes though? Are you saying they went on an atlatl? I am ignorant to their use.

Perino calls them Early Archaic points (Perino, Vol. 1, 1985).

 

[Tnmountains]

Perino calls them Early Archaic points (Perino, Vol. 1, 1985).

Thank you.