Lake Mead National Rec. Area

[boogeyman]

But you never paid anything. All you got was a warning. Albeit a "warning ticket" (unless I'm mis-understanding your post ??). I'm looking for someone who gets a ticket that is a true TICKET . Ie.: had to actually pay something as a penalty. If it turns out to be a scram or warning, then .... that seems to me to be a warning, not a ticket.

I don't think you get the point. It is a citation (ticket) If you get the warning ticket, it's almost worse than a ticket you have to pay a fine on. For the period on the warning ticket be it 3 or 5 years ANYTIME you go to that park or any park they have jurisdiction over you've been set up to fail. If they want to trump up a charge or if let's say for example a piece of paper inadvertently falls out of your pocket. You've littered! You violated the ticket you signed and gives them free reign and more than likely you'll end up with the max. fine and or jail. Sounds like we walked away free & clear but that was not the case. You have to remember, it's not about what you did it's about generating revenue (fine) and setting you up to get access to a larger fine. Yes IT IS a ticket! It is up to the officers discretion to issue a warning or charge you and make an arrest.

If you really think about it, how are you going to dispute the officers testimony saying you were using the detector? All in all you're gonna spend a bunch of money on an attorney to fight it & you're gonna lose or at the least the judge is going to fine you anyway. Common sense says. Take the ticket stay out of the park and use the money you saved on a new detector or two! There's hundreds of places to search with no hassle.

 

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[JOe L]

Yup, those are the terms I would accept if someone were pulled over for something else innocuous, like a tail-light out (at which point the officer saw the detector and went into a raging fit). But cocaine for pete's sake ? When something like that goes down, you know full well that .... they will just start chalking up all sorts of things to make the guy's life miserable.

But seriously now, you're just joking about this cocaine + md'ing thing anyhow, right ?

Yup.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

I realize you were being specific. My point with the city park info is that fines and arrests do happen that nobody will ever hear of without word of mouth or he said she said. "Obviously most arrests and tickets/fines do not make the internet or the local news as they are not hot stories and nobody gives a care about it if not at a historical site" .....

Hunter, I'm willing to accept that this is why few if any examples are forthcoming. Yet whenever someone says that "there are horror stories..." or "I heard of guys who got the book thrown at them for merely XX.....", then that IMPLIES that they have examples of those things. Afterall, they're citing the supposed imminence and occurances that they've "heard of", right ? So it makes sense for me to say "be specific and tell us the examples of what you've heard".

If they turn around and say "well, I don't actually have any examples, because they don't make the news", then that merely contradicts their earlier statement that there is incidents they know of.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

I don't think you get the point. It is a citation (ticket) If you get the warning ticket, it's almost worse than a ticket you have to pay a fine on. .....

boogey-man, I'm sure it's not a pleasant thing to have had that happen. Or to be on their "watch-list" for if you so-much as sneeze after that. That's definately worse than a "scram". But assuming you don't "drop a paper" (litter), and aren't doing anything wrong thereafter like that, then .... well .... it cost you nothing. NOT TO SAY THAT'S PLEASANT, but just saying it's not the "ticket" that i was fishing for.

 

[bigfoot1]

when it comes to regularily detecting one has to look no further than t-net.WE represent a considerable number of avid detectorists.If we arent by and large getting ticketed etc.than by and large its not happening.there will always be barney fifes out there dying to use their bullet but I feel fine going where I want without legal research.I use my head about where I go and have never had any trouble.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

when it comes to regularily detecting one has to look no further than t-net.WE represent a considerable number of avid detectorists......

Yes. The average geek spending time gabbing about detecting (show & tell, politics of md'ing, technology, etc...) on md'ing forum, probably represents the more hard-core md'rs! So you're right: If we can collectively come up with few examples from within our ranks, then .... what gives ?

And to the extent that examples DO arise, well go figure:

a) There will always be someone(s) that take a risk and snoop around obvious historic sensitive monuments. But that's occasions where the md'r could have know FULL WELL (and chose to fence-hop at night, etc... anyhow). So I would hardly count those as examples. Because the md'r had every opportunity to have easily known, and probably did (but temptation got the better of him ).

b) or the exact opposite situation, where a rank newbie, who simply didn't know any better, waltzes out onto shiloh, ghettysburg, Bodie, etc.... Such was the situation of a ticket issued at Folsom Lake in CA (sets of sensitive ruins exposed by the drought). When the news media captured a clip of the man objecting to his ticket, you could see his gear in the background: Looked like he'd gone out to radio shack and picked up a $99 special. Nothing wrong with that, but just saying, again, cases where even the slightest bit of common sense could have steered him/them clear of that.

 

[boogeyman]

boogey-man, I'm sure it's not a pleasant thing to have had that happen. Or to be on their "watch-list" for if you so-much as sneeze after that. That's definately worse than a "scram". But assuming you don't "drop a paper" (litter), and aren't doing anything wrong thereafter like that, then .... well .... it cost you nothing. NOT TO SAY THAT'S PLEASANT, but just saying it's not the "ticket" that i was fishing for.

Lessee Tom you're in Salinas? Next time you're down south drop in to Costa Mesa and start detecting in the park on Center St. Or even better! Go over to Placentia ave behind Estancia High School below the bluff and give it a go. Head out to Joshua Tree in the jumbo rock area and walk up & down the washes with your detector. When you're finished you can give us a firsthand report of what the fine is.

You missed the point of my reply, sure I wasn't penalized monetarily, the point is you have to think a mile ahead! Sure you get off with a citation with the warning box checked instead of the appear in court box, you're pretty much done until the period runs out. It only takes a second to trump up a charge with your "prior" and put you through confiscating your detector(s) vehicle, court costs, atty fees etc etc. That's what you need to think about not where you're getting hassled. All it takes is one officer that had a bad day or just got called on the rug by the WC to mess up your day. My case could've done a complete 180 if it hadn't been for the honest ranger standing up for us! Our cites were just a screw you from the jerk ranger. From reading your posts on TNet, I'm positive you're a very intelligent individual, so I know you can understand what point I'm trying to make.

BTW - I have the ticket somewhere I think, should find it & frame it!

 

[Tom_in_CA]

..... so I know you can understand what point I'm trying to make. ....

Correct. None of us should "throw caution to the wind". But to jump from that, to thinking that "imminent certain tickets & jail await us at every beach and sandbox, unless we grovel for permissions at city halls everywhere", is also not an accurate portrayal either.

The locations you list are 6 hrs. from me, so ... not likely to be down there hunting anytime soon But in the next post, will give a humorous example.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Back when the internet and forums was still young (late 1990s), there was only a few forums. I was reading one guys posts from CA somewhere. And the fellow was posting show & tell staggering clad counts from some beach. Interspersed with occasional gold rings. I began to correspond with him in PM's, and figured out that he was north of San Francisco somewhere.

Eventually though, I got his confidence up, and he let me know where he was getting all his easy-pickens beach was: Stinson Beach. I PM'd back: "I thought Stinson (a federal beach) was off-limits?". (Even though I hadn't personally beach hunted that far north, this is just what I'd heard through the grapevine). The guy PM'd back to tell me that I must be mistaken. Because he'd md'd there, by this time, for many many months (or a year already?), and no one had ever said so much as "boo" to him. Plus, in his mind, "why would ANY beach be off-limits" (I mean, duh, what harm can you do to a beach?).

He had merely gotten a detector, and had simply gone to the nearest beach. And found the dry sand (volleyball courts, etc...) to be target rich with easy coins, and the obligatory rings now and then. At first he was sort of confused. Wondering "gee, why aren't the local md'rs all over this?". Because he had begun to figure out that there were other hobbyists in his area. But he thought "oh well, their loss, my gain".

Eventually though, he began to meet those other locals in his area. And imagine his surprise when he began to realize there was substance in what I'd told him. Doh! But on the other hand, he had gone in broad daylight, full traffic, right in front of manned lifeguard towers, etc... Ranger trucks pass him with nothing but a friendly wave, etc... Hmmmm.....

 

[JOe L]

Eventually though, he began to meet those other locals in his area. And imagine his surprise when he began to realize there was substance in what I'd told him. Doh! But on the other hand, he had gone in broad daylight, full traffic, right in front of manned lifeguard towers, etc... Ranger trucks pass him with nothing but a friendly wave, etc... Hmmmm.....

Until that one ranger came along, the new by the book guy and Bamm, busted.

Good example though Tom. I have been that guy many years ago when I used to do allot of State Park Camping. I never figured you not supposed to metal detect around campsites, notice I said "figured" well now I know. Back then I couldn't imagine why you couldn't.
Now that I am an "experienced" MD'er, read the forums, take heed in what others write, now I'm always looking over my shoulder, even in places I know are ok to detect.
Maybe with out the internet, all these places WOULD be legal to hunt....

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Until that one ranger came along, the new by the book guy and Bamm, busted.....

Actually, no, he was never "busted" ! The only way he was eventually informed, was just by coming to know others in his area, looking it up for himself , etc.... So you can only imagine his dilemma at that point : A) keep going to the same exact beach, since the pickens were so good, and it was painfully obvious that no one cares, or B) to now stay away and for-go his honey-hole. Can you blame him if he simply kept going ? Doh!

 

[Tom_in_CA]

...Maybe with out the internet, all these places WOULD be legal to hunt....

In an odd way, it WAS the dissemination of information (ie.: scary stories of legal hassles....) that only served to SPEED UP the mindset and furtherance. Hard to explain , but .... I distinctly recall the mid 1970s, when none of this EVER CROSSED OUR MINDS. Oh sure, we had the presence of mind to avoid obvious historic sensitive monuments & busy-bodies. But beyond that, no one wondered "is detecting allowed?".

But in the later 1970s and early 1980s, some of the treasure magazines began to profile stories to generate cautions: Eg.: some dude hassled at a CW site. Or some state considering laws to ban at their state parks, etc... Then in the mid 1980s the FMDAC came along, and EVERY EDITION of their newsletter had more "scary stories". Naturally their intention was to garner support for good causes. That's a noble intent. But the un-intended consequence was that scores of md'rs, who previously never had a care in the world, were now somehow "looking over their shoulder". Or worse yet: waltzing into city halls, sending letters to state park's people inquiring, blah blah . Well gee, you know what the result of THAT is going to be! "No's" get passed out, thus generating even MORE "scary stories" .

It was as if it just became a self-fulfilling phenomenon!

Thus yes, in an odd sort of way, it was as if ignorance was bliss. Because not only were we md'rs "ignorant" (and seen as innocuous), but so-too were any authorities also "ignorant" of supposed evil on our parts.

 

[boogeyman]

Back when the internet and forums was still young (late 1990s), there was only a few forums. I was reading one guys posts from CA somewhere. And the fellow was posting show & tell staggering clad counts from some beach. Interspersed with occasional gold rings. I began to correspond with him in PM's, and figured out that he was north of San Francisco somewhere.

Eventually though, I got his confidence up, and he let me know where he was getting all his easy-pickens beach was: Stinson Beach. I PM'd back: "I thought Stinson (a federal beach) was off-limits?". (Even though I hadn't personally beach hunted that far north, this is just what I'd heard through the grapevine). The guy PM'd back to tell me that I must be mistaken. Because he'd md'd there, by this time, for many many months (or a year already?), and no one had ever said so much as "boo" to him. Plus, in his mind, "why would ANY beach be off-limits" (I mean, duh, what harm can you do to a beach?).

He had merely gotten a detector, and had simply gone to the nearest beach. And found the dry sand (volleyball courts, etc...) to be target rich with easy coins, and the obligatory rings now and then. At first he was sort of confused. Wondering "gee, why aren't the local md'rs all over this?". Because he had begun to figure out that there were other hobbyists in his area. But he thought "oh well, their loss, my gain".

Eventually though, he began to meet those other locals in his area. And imagine his surprise when he began to realize there was substance in what I'd told him. Doh! But on the other hand, he had gone in broad daylight, full traffic, right in front of manned lifeguard towers, etc... Ranger trucks pass him with nothing but a friendly wave, etc... Hmmmm.....

Good story! Back when detectors had tubes, In Cali, you could pretty much detect anywhere. If on a state beach the lifeguards and rangers were more likely to stop & ask "Whatcha find?" In Newport Beach, I'd run a beach cart around the fire rings to clear nails and tabs etc. Always left it full of junk on the dumpster. Word got around that I was cleaning the beach where the tractors couldn't get. When the beach closed they'd cruise up in the jeep and whisper "You can stay awhile". Things were a lot different in the 60s 70s and even the 80s. People were more interested in their own business and didn't have the attitude they need to run everyone's show for them. As far as tickets etc etc, Joshua Tree was the ONLY place I've been hassled. Around here I have business cards from all the city park rangers, "In case you run into problems" I think what starts it off is the busybodies don't understand it's a city park not a park for their block or tract. National Parks to mee seems like their more content sitting back a ways with the binoculars in the truck. Fun to watch em jump when you turn around and wave followed by a thumbs up!

If you do any beach hunting up there make yourself up a beach cart, clean the nails & staples out from around the fire rings, and you'll hit a bonanza! The others are too lazy to search in the minefield. Sometimes the old ways are the best ways.

 

[davemcc]

How about this..
Man Ticketed for Possession of Metal Detector | FOX40

 

[skeeter86]

Ive heard a story on discovery where there is a hoard of gold bars relics and other things hidden by the mayans so the spanish would not get to it most likley gone by now im sure the govt has it by now but the scared someone my find another stash good luck loose lips sink ships!

 

[WilliamBoyd]

"Gee, officer, I didn't see the sign"

 

[T.C.]

Maybe he was like "Grandfather" in Little Big Man...."I'm invisible...no one can see me!!"

Back when the internet and forums was still young (late 1990s), there was only a few forums. I was reading one guys posts from CA somewhere. And the fellow was posting show & tell staggering clad counts from some beach. Interspersed with occasional gold rings. I began to correspond with him in PM's, and figured out that he was north of San Francisco somewhere.

Eventually though, I got his confidence up, and he let me know where he was getting all his easy-pickens beach was: Stinson Beach. I PM'd back: "I thought Stinson (a federal beach) was off-limits?". (Even though I hadn't personally beach hunted that far north, this is just what I'd heard through the grapevine). The guy PM'd back to tell me that I must be mistaken. Because he'd md'd there, by this time, for many many months (or a year already?), and no one had ever said so much as "boo" to him. Plus, in his mind, "why would ANY beach be off-limits" (I mean, duh, what harm can you do to a beach?).

He had merely gotten a detector, and had simply gone to the nearest beach. And found the dry sand (volleyball courts, etc...) to be target rich with easy coins, and the obligatory rings now and then. At first he was sort of confused. Wondering "gee, why aren't the local md'rs all over this?". Because he had begun to figure out that there were other hobbyists in his area. But he thought "oh well, their loss, my gain".

Eventually though, he began to meet those other locals in his area. And imagine his surprise when he began to realize there was substance in what I'd told him. Doh! But on the other hand, he had gone in broad daylight, full traffic, right in front of manned lifeguard towers, etc... Ranger trucks pass him with nothing but a friendly wave, etc... Hmmmm.....

 

[Tom_in_CA]

How about this..
Man Ticketed for Possession of Metal Detector | FOX40

Davemcc, that link/story got circulated quite a bit back when it first came out. I do not count that as a "be aware, sky-is-falling" type story. For the following reasons:

A) there is a back-ground behind that story, that the singular news link doesn't give: There had been news clips in the weeks leading up to that, where newscasters went and showed, on nightly television, the cool ruins exposed by the drought. (just foundations of buildings, nothing spectacular). Well guess what happened ? EVERYBODY AND THEIR BROTHER went to look at them in the days/weeks that followed. It was a zoo out there of lookie-lous, who were now "made aware" of this "historical gold rush ruins", blah blah. Ok, that's all fine and dandy, eh ?

b) well you can imagine what happened next: People (beginners with no sense in their head) showed up with metal detectors. And since it was a "news story all that week", that simply meant it had a ton of scrutiny by state park rangers there. I mean, as "only in that spot".

c) And humorously, if you search for it on youtube (not sure if it's still up on youtube), some amateur videographers, about that same time, had made some youtubes of the terrain on one such tourist-crowded weekend. And in the background, in several shots/scenes, you can see guys swinging detectors. No one was saying so much as "boo" to them. And I suppose if it were an all-fired hot & bothered offense, that state people could get ahold of that youtube, freeze frame it (where the md'rs faces were clearly seen) and have figured out who those other people were.

d) thus the state just had to "make an example" of someone. And any md'r with a lick of sense would have know that that was NOT the time to be md'ing there (it was crawling with archie-type people, for pete's sake at some points). So what did anyone expect ?

e) The folsom lake has other old gold rush tent city zones further up in the fingers, that have been revealed many times over the years whenever the water is low. And they have been detected TO DEATH , and no one's ever faced so much as "boo". I know personally of seateds, IH's, and even a coin-purse with multiple seateds, a few reales, and a gold coin were in it. All found in the vicinity of Folsom lake.

Thus sure: flukes (examples) are bound to exist. I even have a news link of someone who got a ticket for "distracted driving", because he was eating a hamburger when he was driving. Ok, so is eating while driving something that is "imminently bound/certain to get you a ticket" ? Or was that a fluke ?

So with a little common sense, anyone can avoid this guy's dilema. He was shown on one clip, and you tell from the detector in the back-ground (a $99 radio shack special) that he simply didn't know any better, and probably had whipped it out in front of rangers standing right there.

And if you read closely the state park codes thrown at the guy in the ticket, you'll notice it makes no distinction on the types of state parks in CA that are forbidden. It seems to just be a blanket "CA state parks", and not just "Folsom lake" or just "this singular set of historic foundations". BUT WAIT! You can detect state of CA ocean beaches till you're blue in the face. And ... yes ....we often find [gasp] old coins. Yet technically speaking, there is nothing to distinguish them from the inland state freshwater beaches, like Folsom.

So I consider that story to be akin to "sensitive historic monument" that ..... as long as you're avoiding those, you will avoid tickets.

 

[davemcc]

Davemcc, that link/story got circulated quite a bit back when it first came out. I do not count that as a "be aware, sky-is-falling" type story. For the following reasons:

Tom just wanted to say thanks for the informative reply. As I had sort of stumbled upon the article looking up something else, I did not know any other details of the story but was curious to what your thoughts would happen to be on it ( the story ).
I agree with your assessment and appreciate the time you took to explain it like you did. And I learned a little bit in the process. Good job on that.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

thanx Dave. I'm not saying to "throw caution to the wind". Nor am I suggesting that someone go to the state of CA desk-bound parks people, and start asking for "clarification" on ocean beaches versus lake beaches. Or what constitutes an artifact or cultural heritage. Or to clarify "is it just this set of colorful ruins, or 'all state park land', etc....?". Because you know full well what would happen next. They would just make a new set of policies (and alert all rank and file rangers in the entire state) for a "B.O.L.", etc....

Thus FOR PRACTICAL APPLICATIONS (ie.: the "real world"), it's only applied on obvious historic sensitive monuments. Beyond that, no one has cared. AND IT IS BEST LEFT THAT WAY !

In fact, CA has a distinct "yes" in their column on the FMDAC's state-by-state website. But it has, as one of the contingencies, that you don't disturb "archaeological features". No doubt what this guy got hassled for, eh ? But ok, YOU TELL ME, if you or I find (gasp) a buffalo nickel after storm erosion on a state beach, is THAT an "archaeological resource" ?

Well gee, I suppose if you asked enough purist archies, you'd eventually find one to say "yes". But how silly is that ? That's like asking a P.E.T.A. rep "can I leave my pet bunny in the car while I run into 7-11 to get a slurpee?". They would screech: "NNNEEEOOOoooo! It's animal cruelty! the bunny could get hot! Your car can be confiscated, you can go to jail!" blah blah blah. (heck, they could probably even cite animal cruely laws that seem to agree with what they're saying) But what did you expect to come from an animal rights activist extremist? SO TOO do I put little stock into what some purist archies say. I mean, sure, don't wave your dirty laundry in front of them ! (as this Folsom guy did). But on the other hand, don't ask silly questions of extremists either.