Lets Discuss (like gentlemen) "The Great Divide" - Artifact Sales

[Twisted One]

Re: Lets Discuss (like gentlemen) "The Great Divide" - Artifact Sales

I could agree with the majority of what you said, except the no-digging part. So more or less collecting of artifacts would be restricted to top soil finds. In my areas that amounts to nothing.

In California our American history only dates back to the mid-1800's. So anything beyond that would be considered Native American history.

So some how I think the licensing and permits would require a different set of rules based on locations, as well as the possibility of the the class curriculum having both a national, and local level of education. An over all set of rules, and then a local set of rules.

As far a people complaining about licensing, they did with hunting and fishing too. Some still do, but most comply.

 

Amazon Forum Fav 👍

Diving for Pleasure and Treasure - Grab it through Amazon!

[ScubaFinder]

Re: Lets Discuss (like gentlemen) "The Great Divide" - Artifact Sales

Indy, Alexandre falls into the old cliche that all TREASURE HUNTERS are greedy little trolls running around destroying archaeological sites. Not even remotely close to being true. We hunt history, we love history, and the only thing that separates us from them are a few text books and a degree on the wall, plus some ridiculous legislation.

I know not everyone on this forum will agree with me, but I consider myself an ethical private archaeologist. Just because i don't have a degree in archaeology doesn't mean I can't be an archaeologist, anymore than a professional photographer MUST have a degree in photography. I am more of an archaeologist than many of them who HAVE degrees. Not to antagonize them, but as far as hours on site digging, artifacts conserved, new shipwreck sites found, books read, reports written, and many other factors that make someone an archaeologist, I have out-worked a good portion of them. I have done it all ethically too, sure I have a few artifacts in my personal collection, just as they do. Every archaeologist I've ever worked with takes a small trophy or two from each site they work. Something to show your grand kids that you were actually there, and not just telling them stories.

 

[ScubaFinder]

Re: Lets Discuss (like gentlemen) "The Great Divide" - Artifact Sales

Twisted, I should have clarified more. You can dig anywhere except designated archaeological sites. With the intense class and amateur permit, you could explore even archaeological sites, but you couldn't excavate them.

 

[Twisted One]

Re: Lets Discuss (like gentlemen) "The Great Divide" - Artifact Sales

Twisted, I should have clarified more. You can dig anywhere except designated archaeological sites. With the intense class and amateur permit, you could explore even archaeological sites, but you couldn't excavate them.

Without a proper archaeologist on site. Okay.

 

[Twisted One]

Re: Lets Discuss (like gentlemen) "The Great Divide" - Artifact Sales

I have to disagree with your theory that most of us are not interested in turning a profit though. In this economy if I found a stash worth thousands of dollars, I would be inclined to take the profit, and upgrade equipment, or pay off some credit cards. Unethical? I don't think so, unless you are selling it someone who someone who is trying to some how use it to falsify history, such as using it to make and sell replicas based on the original.
But under our combined efforts, I think it was decided that if it was a valuable, and significant piece of history it would be taken by government entities, and the finder paid a reward for the find. So that point would be moot.

 

[Twisted One]

Re: Lets Discuss (like gentlemen) "The Great Divide" - Artifact Sales

Every industry uses certain words and defines the ideas and concepts it deals with.

When Alex said and I'm just using this for an example

" I will continue to explain and spread my points of view on the matter
of treasure hunting for personal greed and "capitalistic" profit..

I want to define this and better understand this.

Words are magical. I can call war a military action or peace probing...................I want straight talk just like
everyone does.



Thanks for the reply.

Indy

This is an example of people lumping groups together. Such as the term looter, or nighthawk, etc.. They take a term the find as being offensive, and lump all of us into it.
When it comes to Treasure Hunters, I think the majority of them are in it to find a profit. When in fact very few find any profit to be made.
The archaeologist are against the idea of placing a value to an artifact because it would entice more people, people with no concern of where the items came from, or why they were there to start searching for them.

More or less you tell everyone at your local neighborhood watch program that one of the houses in the neighborhood has a million dollars buried in the yard, the next morning every yard will be dug up, and not necessarily by the owner of the house.

I think the basis of this thread implies that if everyone in that neighborhood was required to get licenses, that required an educational course before they could dig, you would have half as many people trying to dig, and they would dig the yards out with more care and concern for the owner of the houses yard.
If one of the licensed digger found that million dollar stash it would be owned by the owner of the house not the digger, but based on a prearranged deal between the licensed digger, and the home owner the money would be split between them.
However if the government felt that the million dollars was of historical value, then you would be paid for finding them and the million dollar stash would be placed in a museum.

The main problem to be addressed would be the fact that not all of the diggers would be licensed, so like hunting and fishing license you be asked to have them displayed openly so that the officers can see them. It would also require that both home owners and licensed diggers report to authorities when there is an unlicensed digger in their yard digging.

Bad example? Or is that pretty clear?

 

[ScubaFinder]

Re: Lets Discuss (like gentlemen) "The Great Divide" - Artifact Sales

You play a great "devils advocate" Twisted, thank you! I think that is a fine example.

I too would love to get rich doing what I love, all I'm really saying is that it's not my primary motivation. My primary motivation is my love of the hunt. Digging through archival documents and history books makes me happy.

When I lived in Texas, I found an old civil war crossing site that had been lost to History. It's called "Rock Crossing" on the Red River just west of Wichita Falls, TX. (my home town). They knew the general area, but there was no historical marker or anything like that. I went in the river with my detector and finally found an area loaded with civil war artifacts. I turned all the artifacts over to the Wichita County Historical Society except for a few mini balls and an officers coat button. Then I talked my boss into paying for the historical marker once the county agreed that I had found the correct location of the crossing. I also located the encampment they used near the falls where my town got it's name.

Stuff like this is my primary motivation. Gold is also a motivator for me of course, but in a realistic view of our hobby, I believe we do it for the history and the thrill of the hunt, but we are always hoping for some gold.

 

[Twisted One]

Re: Lets Discuss (like gentlemen) "The Great Divide" - Artifact Sales

You play a great "devils advocate" Twisted, thank you!

I too would love to get rich doing what I love, all I'm really saying is that it's not my primary motivation. My primary motivation is my love of the hunt. Digging through archival documents and history books makes me happy.

When I lived in Texas, I found an old civil war crossing site that had been lost to History. It's called "Rock Crossing" on the Red River just west of Wichita Falls, TX. (my home town). They knew the general area, but there was no historical marker or anything like that. I went in the river with my detector and finally found an area loaded with civil war artifacts. I turned all the artifacts over to the Wichita County Historical Society except for a few mini balls and an officers coat button. Then I talked my boss into paying for the historical marker once the county agreed that I had found the correct location of the crossing. I also located the encampment they used near the falls where my town got it's name.

Stuff like this is my primary motivation. Gold is also a motivator for me of course, but in a realistic view of our hobby, I believe we do it for the history and the thrill of the hunt, but we are always hoping for some gold.

I am new to Metal detecting, and my major motivation was the fact that I have worked from home for the last seven years, I am out of shape, and being raised as a hunter, I miss the outdoors. I don't really miss the work and cost of hunting though.
So I bought a metal detector and started hiking up to areas where BLM has cut trails, and then going off the trail and seeing what I can find. I have come up empty handed so far, other than some modern day change, and what appears to be a .30 caliber musket ball <old, new, who knows>.
I will say there are a lot of "Lost treasure stories" for my area, and if I happened upon one of those caches, I would be excited, but then the confusion starts.... You find a buried stash from a wells fargo coach robbery, say at the time $5000 gold, which today is closer to $500,000 gold.
What happens? Do you own it, does Wells Fargo own it? Does the government own it? If I found and had in my hands $500,000 dollars worth of gold, I would be hard pressed to turn it over, and I know a lot of people that would claim you the dumbest person on earth if you did.
If I found and reported this find, and Well Fargos claimed ownership and gave me a $5,000 dollar reward, I would feel a bit robbed myself, but probably be content. Would I turn in the next treasure I found...the devil would be on my shoulder.

If I found it and the government claimed it, and there was no reward, I would be irate. I know I would not turn in another find. To hold $500,000 dollars in your hand and understand your house would be paid for, your credit cards cleared, and be able to splurge a bit like a new car, etc... Then go straight to owning zero, nothing, notta?

Under what I proposed earlier, that find would have gone before a committee, that committee would decide it's actual value, and you would be paid for finding it, if not a full amount, than at least a portion. Would I be happy, most likely, would I get to clear some debt, maybe even buy a new car? sure! Would I get a little fame? Yeah!, would the gold go to a museum? maybe some of it, the rest would end up being melted down and recirculated most likely.

Would it have been unethical to have not declared the find, and melted it down myself and cashed it in? If the alternative was nothing for me, I would be hard pressed to understand the right and wrong of the situation, a bank or government increasing it's income by $500,000 from my research, and experience, and luck? Would that be right or wrong?

If I found Napoleons hat? That would be a historical find, It would be worth millions on the black market, would I report the finding? In a heart beat. It would be an important part of history, and something of interest to everyone. Would I miss the millions of dollars I could have made? Maybe a little, but nothing like I would have if it was actual money in my hand and taken away from me.

 

[ScubaFinder]

Re: Lets Discuss (like gentlemen) "The Great Divide" - Artifact Sales

Well, a Wells Fargo stage coach would've been carrying American coins most likely, and anyone would be hard pressed to turn that in. I don't see a lot of historical value in it unless you could prove that it was Billie the Kidd who robbed the coach or something. I believe under the way we are discussing these rules, you would be entitled to keep your find as far as the state was concerned. There would be zero proof that it was robbed from Wells Fargo, so they would have no claim either. The ethics could come into play if you found the stash IN a Wells Fargo strong box. I think most would simply discard the strong box, and claim they found a pile of gold coins. Ethical, ummm, not really, likely, I'd say VERY likely for most.

Every situation will have a different set of circumstances, your example would be an exceptional event, and not the normal day to day operations. The day to day stuff is what we are trying to regulate and improve. Extreme situations would be just that, and would have to be dealt with on a case by case basis. Like the U.K. plan, if something was of great monetary value AND of great historical value, the state would get the item but the finder would be paid the value. If found on private land the finder would be required to split the payment with the owner.

 

[Twisted One]

Re: Lets Discuss (like gentlemen) "The Great Divide" - Artifact Sales

Pretty much as I stated before. I think the right people could pen up a set of rules, regulations, and requirements in a matter of a few months if it was their only task at hand. It would take years after that to perfect those rules, regulations and requirements, but during that time I think a fairly decent amount of changes could be made and put in to play to benefit everyone.

So someone get started on it please.....

 

[ScubaFinder]

Re: Lets Discuss (like gentlemen) "The Great Divide" - Artifact Sales

That is exactly what we are doing here. I have a master file that I am writing and categorizing like a State Bill (hint hint). I am also discussing this with one archaeologist, and another will weigh in when he can. I will run my draft over to Taffi Fisher and HISPAC, Jim Sinclair, Detector Rights.com and anyone else who I think might be able to contribute to it. Then we will hand it over to a lawyer friend of mine who has made some BIG changes in Florida statutes before. We can get an audience with Gov. Scott through Taffi and her group. Our "bill" would then get handed DOWNWARDS to the state archaeologists from Gov. Scott's office, and the mud-slinging will begin there, but at least this time they would have to throw the mud uphill.

The only thing I know for sure is this; I cannot continue to sit here and be judge and legislated based on the sins of treasure hunters past. It's a new world, and the majority of us want history to be preserved, and the majority of them would like to have our help. All we need to do is remove the old guard and get down to finding and saving as much history as we can. If we find a pile of gold, awesome, if not, we still have done a great thing for humanity. This is the only "right" I want out of this, the right to help without being treated like a criminal.

 

[Twisted One]

Re: Lets Discuss (like gentlemen) "The Great Divide" - Artifact Sales

Sounds good, I'm more than willing to keep putting more effort into it, as you said I might be the bad guy in some cases though. Which might prove a good thing. I am also new, so might not be helpful in other areas. We certainly need to know where other people would stand though since it just seems to be like three of us even discussing it.

 

[ScubaFinder]

Re: Lets Discuss (like gentlemen) "The Great Divide" - Artifact Sales

Many people here are afraid their eye-patch would be taken away if they communicated in a constructive way. I too could go over to the dark side if forced to, but I'd like to see if we can't work together first. Most here are content to gripe and call names...I'm a bit more pro-active. And despite the many wrong-doings that have been handed to us as a group, I still see room for cooperation. The 80/20 rule IS in effect, whether the 80 percent on either side will admit it or not. Both sides seem content to point fingers at the 20% on the other side.

 

[Twisted One]

Re: Lets Discuss (like gentlemen) "The Great Divide" - Artifact Sales

Sure, as long as I can get rich when I earn it, then I am willing If it still boils down to them taking my money when I find it, there will be hell to pay. Am I looking for an opening for profiteering? No, but if I did happen to get lucky and find a so called "Treasure Trove" I had bettered be entitled to something.

When it comes to finding small pieces of interest, I am in your boat. A few relics, of interest to me, I would be willing to report any findings, and discuss the needs of the museum, and if it comes down to a museum wanting it, over my own private collection <yes, my .30 caliber possibly early musket ball is my collection> I would be inclined to offer it to the museum to be shared, especially if it were an option to loan it, where it went back to my collection when the museum no longer wanted to display it.
When it comes down to individual coins, or small stashes of coins, unless it has historical significance, it should be mine to do as I see fit with.
If we are talking Native American artifacts, or something specific and important to the gold rush, then an archaeological study might be needed to determine the importance of the area, and the artifacts. If it is decided that it is unimportant enough for archaeologist to get funding to deal with it, then the amateur finding it should be allowed to pull a permit to excavate it to a minor extent. Perhaps with a single archaeologist over seeing the recording of data, and photography of items, and proper procedures are used.
After the excavation, if nothing of historical importance was found, then it should be up to the owner of the permit to decide what to do with the findings, with an encouragement of donating, or loaning said items, or a partial list of said items to the local museum, or Native American reservation. Encouragement could be something in the effect of a tax right off of the estimated value of the items, or as little as an honorific, a certificate of findings, something to make them feel good about making a difference.

 

[ScubaFinder]

Re: Lets Discuss (like gentlemen) "The Great Divide" - Artifact Sales

Well, you and I agree. I wish the vocal people on both sides of the issue would chime in, but nothing more than a few one-liners. Oh well, you can't blame me for trying, and I will still try to make a difference with this. Who knows.

 

[Jon Phillips]

Re: Lets Discuss (like gentlemen) "The Great Divide" - Artifact Sales

That is exactly what we are doing here. I have a master file that I am writing and categorizing like a State Bill (hint hint). I am also discussing this with one archaeologist, and another will weigh in when he can. I will run my draft over to Taffi Fisher and HISPAC, Jim Sinclair, Detector Rights.com and anyone else who I think might be able to contribute to it. Then we will hand it over to a lawyer friend of mine who has made some BIG changes in Florida statutes before. We can get an audience with Gov. Scott through Taffi and her group. Our "bill" would then get handed DOWNWARDS to the state archaeologists from Gov. Scott's office, and the mud-slinging will begin there, but at least this time they would have to throw the mud uphill.

The only thing I know for sure is this; I cannot continue to sit here and be judge and legislated based on the sins of treasure hunters past. It's a new world, and the majority of us want history to be preserved, and the majority of them would like to have our help. All we need to do is remove the old guard and get down to finding and saving as much history as we can. If we find a pile of gold, awesome, if not, we still have done a great thing for humanity. This is the only "right" I want out of this, the right to help without being treated like a criminal.

I think you should put in a section on taxpayer-funded archaeologists being held accountable, and required to actually accomplish something in order to keep their jobs.....write books....or reports that aren't a bunch a in-house jargon, or technical-speak, but actually understandible to the average person interested in history....their offices should look like any other government office....not a private museum....produce new findings....do actual field work on all these "banked" sites...etc.

I don't expect it to stay in...but it gives them something to panic about, and focus on...maybe distract them enough to get the common sense parts to make it through......

Like asking $12,000 for a car that you only want $10,000 for! It gives them something to haggle over, and preys on their own egos!

 

[ScubaFinder]

Re: Lets Discuss (like gentlemen) "The Great Divide" - Artifact Sales

Nice thinking Jon, I will definitely look into that angle. Some archaeologists are helping me, so I bet they could throw enough correct jargon to scare the powers that be. lol

 

[Alexandre]

Re: Lets Discuss (like gentlemen) "The Great Divide" - Artifact Sales

http://www.archaeology.org/online/interviews/scott.html

 

[lookindown]

Re: Lets Discuss (like gentlemen) "The Great Divide" - Artifact Sales

Alexandre, can we see some pics of your private artifact collection, Im sure it is stunning.

 

[bigscoop]

Re: Lets Discuss (like gentlemen) "The Great Divide" - Artifact Sales

One of the issues that's becoming apparent to me in this discussion as far as looting and metal detectors are concerned is the lack of seperation of their use on existing sites VS those unknown areas/lands where completely new discoveries and isolated finds are still being sought by the hobbyist. Just this past week alone I have read two different post detailing how MDer's and Archeologist are working together "on existing sites" as if these examples are proof that the two sides can work together. But in these examples I see no additional "original poster" comments within these post addressing the use of these detectors outside of this on-site partnership? Established sites are an entirely a different issue VS the unestablished locations and lands being searched by most detectorist and other hobbyist. So let me just ask, do you see a means by which a mutual fondation of trust can be established between the two factions without the other's presence? To me this is a really BIG issue that has to be investigated where options and ideas can be openly explored.