Lets Discuss (like gentlemen) "The Great Divide" - Artifact Sales

[wwwtimmcp]

Re: Lets Discuss (like gentlemen) "The Great Divide" - Artifact Sales

I dont know how all the finger pointing got started, but ohio's underwater archaeologist and me get along just fine. as far as rules he gave me several and I adhere to them. he enjoys hearing my reports and the archaeologists with farc (firelands area research center) enjoyed my presentation on november 28th 2011. when I first got started dr. herdendorff told me, that boom or bust I was a plank owner on this endeavor.

there are alot of ways the govt could deal with individuals that make significant finds. lets say I hit the motherload and it is worth a million dollars, also that it is extremely rare historical artifacts and coins too.
if the govt decides it wants to keep the finds why not offer a tax free grant to the finder, this gives them more money as it can pay half a million and own a million dollars of historical items.

this also gives the finder more money since he or she avoids the taxman. these are just numbers I am throwing out, not actual figures, it could be 750,000.00 or maybe less. I am writing a book about the wreck I am diving, the state might say we will buy 100,000 copies at $10.00 profit each to me, if we get to keep the artifacts and maybe give me a good grant to help things along . they might also offer more and use the book to reclaim the grant money used to pay me.

there are alot of ideas to, who knows maybe a movie or a textbook. I heard bill murrays "steve zissou the life aquatic" was filmed to save "calypso" cousteau's old boat. you get the idea. when people refuse to talk, nothing gets done. if nothing gets done, we all lose. if one side tries to cheat the other the other side retaliates. wether it is passing laws the other side ignores or hiding information, or destroying artifacts it just does not make sense to me.

 

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[Alexandre]

Re: Lets Discuss (like gentlemen) "The Great Divide" - Artifact Sales

Alexandre, can we see some pics of your private artifact collection, Im sure it is stunning.

I dont have any. Just photos.

 

[ScubaFinder]

Re: Lets Discuss (like gentlemen) "The Great Divide" - Artifact Sales

Thanks for the link to Dr. Scott's article Alexandre, that was a neat read.

Great information Timmcp, thank you for sharing that story. I know people who have worked closely and cordially with North and South Carolina's archaeologists as well, and they report the same. Mutual respect, a clear cut set of rules, and everybody was happy on both sides. I myself have experienced that with Florida's James Leavy, great guy, it's a shame he retired a few years back.

If archaeologists in Florida organized a battlefield hunt, where we were invited to come help but we would receive no artifacts, I think we would show up in force and do outstanding work for them too. Not everyone would come, but the right ones would. If the two groups could ever get together. Can We?

 

[bigscoop]

Re: Lets Discuss (like gentlemen) "The Great Divide" - Artifact Sales

Alexandre,
Respectfully, as far as you being in a different country, and given that you are basically on the outside looking in, do you see any way that a new concept could be worked out between archeologist and treasure hunters/hobbyist here in the US so that everyone's interest is mutually satisfied and better served? Just curious if you have ever given the matter any serious, possible consideration? And if so, what your thoughts might be as far a mutual solution? Not attacking you, just trying pick your brain a bit as to what you think could work, and why, or why not?

 

[Alexandre]

Re: Lets Discuss (like gentlemen) "The Great Divide" - Artifact Sales

Alexandre,
Respectfully, as far as you being in a different country, and given that you are basically on the outside looking in, do you see any way that a new concept could be worked out between archeologist and treasure hunters/hobbyist here in the US so that everyone's interest is mutually satisfied and better served? Just curious if you have ever given the matter any serious, possible consideration? And if so, what your thoughts might be as far a mutual solution? Not attacking you, just trying pick your brain a bit as to what you think could work, and why, or why not?

Bigscoop,

I will chip in at lenght, when I have the time for it, coming next week. The matter wont be settled with a two-liner.

Basically, this all boils down to two questions: who owns the past and what shall we do with it.

And these questions are like those other two, that modern science and present great thinkers haven't managed to answer yet: what is love and what does really go inside a woman's head.

 

[bigscoop]

Re: Lets Discuss (like gentlemen) "The Great Divide" - Artifact Sales

Alexandre,
Respectfully, as far as you being in a different country, and given that you are basically on the outside looking in, do you see any way that a new concept could be worked out between archeologist and treasure hunters/hobbyist here in the US so that everyone's interest is mutually satisfied and better served? Just curious if you have ever given the matter any serious, possible consideration? And if so, what your thoughts might be as far a mutual solution? Not attacking you, just trying pick your brain a bit as to what you think could work, and why, or why not?

Bigscoop,

I will chip in at lenght, when I have the time for it, coming next week. The matter wont be settled with a two-liner.

Basically, this all boils down to two questions: who owns the past and what shall we do with it.

And these questions are like those other two, that modern science and present great thinkers haven't managed to answer yet: what is love and what does really go inside a woman's head.

Understand, especially the woman thing! At least borders don't change that. However, I think the issue encompasses a great deal more then just those two very selective questions. For instance:

The Fundamental Right of Discovery and Achievement

This open letter is to discuss “the fundamental right of discovery and achievement”, or more accurately, to ask the question, “just who should these fundamental rights belong to?” This is not an attempt to pint fingers, but rather it is an attempt to detail why these fundamental rights must remain available to each and every one of us.

In truth, when the fundamental rights of discovery and achievement are taken away or resisted then we have, in effect, halted or stalled the very pursuit of education and progress. This isn’t to say that beyond these fundamental rights that higher education shouldn’t be required, as in many cases it should be. However, when higher education is allowed to infringe upon the fundamental rights of discovery and achievement then the system has been allowed to become flawed and broken, discovery and achievement becomes halted and stalled and quite often completely controlled by a relatively small group of scholars. Is this what educators and lawmakers desire, to continue building upon a system that halts and stalls discovery, achievement, education, and ultimately, progress?

“Fear.” It is fear that has caused the existence of many of our current laws and regulations, a fear that believes that without these laws in place there can be no control over the historical resources in question. But I ask you now, after all these years of passing laws and installing countless restrictions, what has really been achieved beyond huge expense? In truth, the only thing that has been accomplished is the halting and/or stalling of discovery and achievement. And at what cost? Certainly this country’s tax dollars were never intended to be so frivolously spent. Certainly this country’s tax dollars were never intended to be used to halt or stall the fundamental right of discovery and achievement? And yet, as it stands today, this is exactly the end result. And, there can also be no denying that these laws and restrictions have only served to cause the increased hiding of countless discoveries and achievements for fear of simple prosecution. Throughout our history how many great discoveries have come from someone other then a documented scholar? It goes without saying that list is quite vast. Imagine where we would be today if these free-thinking discoveries and achievements had never been allowed, or if they had been hidden away and forgotten because of fear? At times, “fear” can be man’s own worst enemy, just as he has allowed this fear to halt and stall the fundamental right of discovery and achievement.

Clearly, the treasure hunting communities and archeological communities CANNOT continue down the same current path. If this is allowed then we will end up like Spain and many other countries where scholars and lawmakers have arranged it so that important historical documents, information, and resources are only available to a very small controlling group. Is this what we want our tax dollars to support, the very halting or stalling of the fundamental right of discovery and achievement? Do we want our tax dollars to continue to be used to prohibit the basic right of self-education? If we do, and if this is the pattern of logic we wish to continue to follow then let us also shut down our internet and close our libraries and schools. Is this what it is all coming to? Unfortunately, according to some, this is the way it must be in order that they might better preserve for all of us our fundamental rights of discovery and personal achievement.

So as you see, it has a great deal to do with many important issues far beyond just the two selective questions you wish it all boiled down to.

 

[bill from lachine]

Re: Lets Discuss (like gentlemen) "The Great Divide" - Artifact Sales

Scubafinder etal,

First off kudos to Scubafinder and all the other posters for starting and contributing to this thread....

Just my 2 cents for what it's worth....if the State of Florida is open to setting up a new framework/law
which finds a middle ground between the Archaeologist and Detectorist communities concentrate your efforts there.

As the saying goes "Rome wasn't built in a day"....if you're successful there you can use those results to lobby for similar treatment in other states and jurisdictions.

Maybe another thread asking members to submit a wish list of what should be included in the new law framework and then put it to a general vote to narrow it down....hopefully that would help weed out
the over the top or unworkable items.

Good luck on your efforts and here's wishing you all the best on the final outcome.

Regards + HH

Bill

 

[Twisted One]

Re: Lets Discuss (like gentlemen) "The Great Divide" - Artifact Sales

As much as I hate to say it, he is right. Making a smaller scale working model, such as in one state would set the way for other states to adopt it, much like do with other measures. Take the medical marijuana progress. It started as only laws against, then they managed to get one state to agree to it, then eventually more states adopted it.
This is a harder fight then what we are suggesting, do to the fact that Metal Detecting in itself is not illegal. So take Florida for example, if you won them over and got the archaeologist and the hobbyist working together, with the archaeologist gain areas, and more historical items, and information. The hobbyist gaining more area, and items of interest, and possibly financial gain. If this model worked for a year, and perhaps should a benefit for the state, archaeologist, revenue, museums, etc.. then it would be easier for other states to see it, and say Okay, we can do that.

 

[bigscoop]

Re: Lets Discuss (like gentlemen) "The Great Divide" - Artifact Sales

lachine, twisted one,

Exactly! And from what I'm hearing, there is a great deal of interest in the creating of this type of thing from all concerned parties here in Florida. As you know, Florida is a hotbed of aercheological resources, especially in the marine sector, so if a good, working, cost efficent, practical model can be created here.....then you can bet other states are going to take a vary serious look at the successful model here. "Efficiency" is the golden word and clearly the current systems that are in place do not provide that, not any front.

 

[bill from lachine]

Re: Lets Discuss (like gentlemen) "The Great Divide" - Artifact Sales

Twisted One,

Funny thing is I spent 35 years working in transportation marketing....which is where the idea came from...we'd hire outside consultants from universities,etc.....and make up wish lists and then narrow it down to the easily achievable items or the least risky....

Better to shoot for a reasonable target at the outset than the moon... like in baseball a lot of singles and doubles will still get you some runs....we can't always count on the grand slam....lol.

Regards + HH

Bill


Regards

As much as I hate to say it, he is right. Making a smaller scale working model, such as in one state would set the way for other states to adopt it, much like do with other measures. Take the medical marijuana progress. It started as only laws against, then they managed to get one state to agree to it, then eventually more states adopted it.
This is a harder fight then what we are suggesting, do to the fact that Metal Detecting in itself is not illegal. So take Florida for example, if you won them over and got the archaeologist and the hobbyist working together, with the archaeologist gain areas, and more historical items, and information. The hobbyist gaining more area, and items of interest, and possibly financial gain. If this model worked for a year, and perhaps should a benefit for the state, archaeologist, revenue, museums, etc.. then it would be easier for other states to see it, and say Okay, we can do that.

 

[centfladigger]

Re: Lets Discuss (like gentlemen) "The Great Divide" - Artifact Sales

hello all, first time posting in these sections, but a long time reader of all the tales y`all write,lol
I am a 30 year digger/river diver of artifacts and fossils and I have seen the times change, we used to have the IFP which is/was the Isolated Fiinds Program. That was taken away about 7 years ago by Judy Bense. All artifacts over 50 years old and man made found in the states waters belong to the state. The IfP was a easy form to fill out and a program to enjoy while you collected.
What the state saw more and more of was the selling of Indina artifacts through Ebay and shows and no forms filled out no pictures provide to document said finds. They pulled the plug, does it stop people from diving and collecting? nope, its cat and mouse with the man for most. I do not and have not sold anything I have found, would I ever? if needed I would I collect for a different reason than some of my buddies. SOme need gas for the boat some need air cards, we curn enough on the rivers in the summer we get pretty close to a commercial rate
Now what the Sate has given us is the FPAN, Florida Public Archeaology Network. This is a program to ENCOURAGE the public to bring finds and learn. My good friend Dr.Rich Estabrooks is the head of the Crystal River mound complex, he is digger friendly and thats how we started our realtionship 20 years ago. He knew that if it wasnt for us they would have half of the sites they do now.
The FPAN is set up to help educate and encourage the public in learning about our past here in FL. I have been doing the Great AMerican Teach In for about 15 cyears now and since the start of the FPAN Riich has come out with Power point presentations and I bring the hands on stuff they dont have. I share with the kids and give them real artifacts from their hometown area to see and learn about. People like Rich, to me, are few and far between, those of us not papered are looked down on but we know as much as they do about our past here.
I have a great respect for that. My ancestor had a fort on the east caost Fort Capron, which is now a spralling subdivison named Capron Ridge. I know the 2 guys who dug that site back in the day, my other ancestor was the barefoot mailman who walked the east coast delivering mail down by Lake Worth to Miami
I have seen with my own eyes artifacts donated to USF thrown out in the trash, no recors or provenance was provided so therefore they had no "value" to them. Museum in BRadenton area was selling a 3 acre tract of land that had a documented burial mound on it, with burial still in it. The land was donated to the museum and they needed money more than the land so they put it up for sale. Saw a small museum in north Tampa with a yeard sdale, for real. THey were selling artifacts out of theirt museum.
The State needs to come up with a yearly permit for the divers ,rivers/or open water, to pay so we can legally get back to what it is we do and enjoy. I dont care what the academics think or say of folks like me, I do it for me and mine to further learn about our part and the history here through our finds, not what they want us to know. Great topic and all great responses

 

[ScubaFinder]

Re: Lets Discuss (like gentlemen) "The Great Divide" - Artifact Sales

Thanks for all the contributions. To address one of the major concerns (and a valid concern) that we are moving too fast and asking too much for the first run, I agree. What I am trying to do up front is get a "Best Case Scenario" for metal detectorists. We are simultaneously working on a "Best case scenario for Archaeologists". We already have some areas that are common ground from both scenarios. These are the points we will focus on first, the things we are in agreement on. Like "licensing money is desperately needed by the state, and would be a welcome addition". Also, every artifact getting reported (or at least WAY more than are being reported now) even if the state doesn't get to own it, it still adds to the archaeological record. If it is deemed important, then it can be requested for study for a length of time, or donated to them should the finder be so inclined.

I think we will have to give a little in the beginning to get what we are after. I don't think we will even push the parks issue in the first year. Lets give them a year of good artifact data and reporting so they see the value of letting us help first....then the parks situation is an easier sell. The big sticking point is still artifact sales, but most of the archaeologists I have spoken to agree that there is a point when too many identical artifacts become a liability instead of an asset. We have also kicked around the idea of stewardship instead of outright ownership. You can buy the stewardship, and keep the coin in your possession, hand it down as a family heirloom, and do as you wish with it. But in reality, the state still retains ownership, just not possession. All this really does is guarantee that if in the future, your particular artifact requires a closer look because of something new that was learned, the state could request it to be returned. If they needed to keep it, you would be given stewardship of another equal artifact. If they just needed a closer look, you would recieve your artifact back when they were finished studying it. This in reality would be nothing more than a simple wording change on your certificate of authenticity stating that it is the stewards responsibility to make the artifact available to the archaeological community should it become necessary.

The reason I'm OK with putting this out there in public is because I'm not trying to "pull one over" on the archaeologists, I'm trying to find some common ground where we can help them, and they can help us. Most of us are in this for the same reason, we love history, and we love the thrill and challenge of trying to hunt it down, and of course the satisfaction of actually finding what we are looking for. Archaeologists are not so different in mindset, but they have been tasked with not only finding and decoding history...they are tasked with PROTECTING it as well. I don't think anyone here would disagree that it NEEDS protecting from some folks. We would gladly help to protect it as well, sort of self-police our own community to ensure that they partnership stays in tact. Is my dream a huge, monumental mountain to climb...absolutely. It will not be easy, but I believe if the ethical among us get together and TRY to work together, we can.

Thanks again for the input!!! Keep it coming.

Jason

 

[bill from lachine]

Re: Lets Discuss (like gentlemen) "The Great Divide" - Artifact Sales

ScubaFinder,

Since this thread encompasses the whole spectrum of detecting both land and sea....might be worthwhile to make a post under general discussions with a link back to this thread....and ask one of the moderators to make it a sticky...it's worth a shot and will probably draw more input from a broader selection of members.

Regards + HH

Bill

 

[gord]

Re: Lets Discuss (like gentlemen) "The Great Divide" - Artifact Sales

ScubaFinder,

Since this thread encompasses the whole spectrum of detecting both land and sea....might be worthwhile to make a post under general discussions with a link back to this thread....and ask one of the moderators to make it a sticky...it's worth a shot and will probably draw more input from a broader selection of members.

Regards + HH

Bill

What, and let those pot hunters have an equal say with real salvors!

 

[aquanut]

Re: Lets Discuss (like gentlemen) "The Great Divide" - Artifact Sales

Scubafinder,
I compliment you on your intelligent approach to a topic that has, in the past, been one that can't seem to find a common ground. Too bad we can't get a response from the state arkies here on the forum. What are they afraid of I know damn well they follow what is posted here!
Aquanut

 

[gord]

Re: Lets Discuss (like gentlemen) "The Great Divide" - Artifact Sales

You are assuming that the acquisition of a degree requires the ability to read and write!

 

[RELICDUDE07]

Re: Lets Discuss (like gentlemen) "The Great Divide" - Artifact Sales

Good luck with this Jason...For some of us the internet is a easy tool to find old maps & historic sites in America -you can look at a map ,the hills & water line walk to the site & pick up artifacts .... Most historic sites are protected by the States in the form of State parks & forestry areas.Its funny i was researching gold found in the U.S. & most of the main areas /gold regions were taken & made into parks also.....I still love history but have lost the thrill of the hunt-----There is gold in them hills !!!! it's best if they call them dunes & keep the stay off signs posted!

 

[centfladigger]

Re: Lets Discuss (like gentlemen) "The Great Divide" - Artifact Sales

Florida, in my opinion , has the best of what history has to offer. From paleo to historic, even the materials used or found. Wet site artifact preservation is unreal. the Windover site is a prime example. There is so much that hasnt even been discovered and even when construction does uncover something of significance there isnt time for proper excavation and documentation. That is what happened back in the 80`s at the Fort Brooke site in Tampa, the archs working ahead of the paving crew for the parking lot, but stuff like that happens everywhere.
Alot of our artifacts that were found here in Florida arent even here in Florida. The out of state Archs and even wealthy people came down here dug our mounds and sites and took them away , thats not right
If we could even coexist with the State on helping with excavation of construction/destruction sites and have one HUGE museum for displaying all time periods involved with volunteer work by us "amateurs" would be great.
We had a show in Chiefland put on by the Kolomoki Society ( indian artifact collectors) and Dr. Richard Hulbert ( fossils) and Dr. Barbara Purdy ( archaeologist) came as guest speakers to tell about her career and how archeaology has change since she first started. Thats a good thing, they came to talk to diggers/collectors

 

[tomclark]

Re: Lets Discuss (like gentlemen) "The Great Divide" - Artifact Sales

Rules, regulations, permits, licenses, reports, committees, co-operation....... You all are gonna make me puke.
Cooperate with them in some ways and they own you. They screwed us in FL, continue to do so. (Hello!!! IFP!?!?!!!) Your state is next. "They" have power and we do NOT. This isn't just about "Treasure Hunting". It's about recreational diving, fossils, bottles, detecting, artifacts. IMHOP the SALES of items and repros have ruined/altered these hobbies forever. Finders Keepers, not necessarily Finders Sellers.
Work towards getting our rights back but keep keep head on straight. Please retain stool.
Do not sniff fragrant monkey tail. They get nothing from me, nah nah nah nah nah naaaaah. Few understand what we went through with Florida and the IFP.

 

[bigscoop]

Re: Lets Discuss (like gentlemen) "The Great Divide" - Artifact Sales

On the subject of "artifact sales".....the only way you can stop the "black market" or illegal trading and sales of these things is by not continuing to provide a need for it. As long as something is in demand it will always be acquired, sold & bought, and all of this will be done by deception and in silence if it has to be. On the other hand, if there is no need or requirement for a black market or the "illegal" sale and trading of these things then these things would be done more openly for "all to see".

Prohibition, the war on drugs, gun control, etc., etc., etc. They have all failed and at a huge cost. Ironically, “history” speaks for itself in these matters so let’s listen to it and use it to better the situation “for everyone”.