Lets Discuss (like gentlemen) "The Great Divide" - Artifact Sales

bigscoop

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Re: Lets Discuss (like gentlemen) "The Great Divide" - Artifact Sales

My point with the above post, "Liabilities in the Dirt" was simply to bring to light that when we accept the idea that everything should be recovered and preserved then we also have to accept the fact there is a cost associated with all of it. The bottom line is that it all comes back to money in the end, and so everything has a value attached to it. If we take a piece of old pottery that has a street value of say, $10, and we store that item year after year then before long the cost of storing that item far exceeds the value of the item. Simply put, it's bad business, or more accurately, it's a business of building liabilities and increased debt. And if we're doing that with thousands upon thousands of items, then quite clearly it is extremely bad business because there isn't, and never will be, enough money to support that business logic and practice. But I also want to point out that this is the current nature of a business that thousands rely on as a source of income and that a portion of this business is also a benefit and a necessity. Archeologist could be, and should be, great educators, and the area in which they work could actually provide a source of self-supporting income and far-greater opportunity. But checks & balances never lie and the system that is currently under thumb, "can't work". I don't see how change can be avoided, especially if their is any concern or conscience regarding financial stability. Instead of continuing to throw good money at bad ivestments, why not create a better system that invest good money into good assets?
 

Jones Indiana

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Re: Lets Discuss (like gentlemen) "The Great Divide" - Artifact Sales

The amount of understanding and wisdom leaves me dumbfounded. Truly your a man of wealth in many ways.

Best

Indy
 

bigscoop

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Re: Lets Discuss (like gentlemen) "The Great Divide" - Artifact Sales

Alexandre,
There is no doubt that the VAST POOL of metal detectors, salvers, treasure hunters, and hobbyist IN THE U.S. can be a HUGE ASSET to the archeological community. But the question is, what is the archeological community willing to provide to this VAST POOL in return? :dontknow: The bottom line here is that this VAST POOL didn't, and doesn't, invest in their individual pursuits for nothing. They enjoy the research and the hunts and they want to privately own personal collections and pieces, and they want to be credited and appreciated for their discoveries, not prosecuted, just as any archeologist wants to be treated and recognized for his/her personal achievements.
 

lookindown

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Re: Lets Discuss (like gentlemen) "The Great Divide" - Artifact Sales

bigscoop said:
Alexandre,
There is no doubt that the VAST POOL of metal detectors, salvers, treasure hunters, and hobbyist IN THE U.S. can be a HUGE ASSET to the archeological community. But the question is, what is the archeological community willing to provide to this VAST POOL in return? :dontknow: The bottom line here is that this VAST POOL didn't, and doesn't, invest in their individual pursuits for nothing. They enjoy the research and the hunts and they want to privately own personal collections and pieces, and they want to be credited and appreciated for their discoveries, not prosecuted, just as any archeologist wants to be treated and recognized for his/her personal achievements.
Alexandre claims that he doesnt have a single artifact in a private collection, only pictures...do you really think he wants us to have anything. Hard to reach a middle ground with archies with that attitude. :dontknow:
 

bigscoop

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Re: Lets Discuss (like gentlemen) "The Great Divide" - Artifact Sales

lookindown said:
bigscoop said:
Alexandre,
There is no doubt that the VAST POOL of metal detectors, salvers, treasure hunters, and hobbyist IN THE U.S. can be a HUGE ASSET to the archeological community. But the question is, what is the archeological community willing to provide to this VAST POOL in return? :dontknow: The bottom line here is that this VAST POOL didn't, and doesn't, invest in their individual pursuits for nothing. They enjoy the research and the hunts and they want to privately own personal collections and pieces, and they want to be credited and appreciated for their discoveries, not prosecuted, just as any archeologist wants to be treated and recognized for his/her personal achievements.
Alexandre claims that he doesnt have a single artifact in a private collection, only pictures...do you really think he wants us to have anything. Hard to reach a middle ground with archies with that attitude. :dontknow:

Alexandre conducts his affairs in a different country under the scope of a different governing/ruling body and process. But I think it's good that he continues to post here because it often provides a lot of insight into just how bad things can get when allowed. So I thank him for making more people aware of that fact in this country. :thumbsup:
 

bill from lachine

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Re: Lets Discuss (like gentlemen) "The Great Divide" - Artifact Sales

Folks,

I've been following this thread all along and it appears there's still a long way to go to find a common ground between the archaeological and detecting communities.

One common purpose we have I believe is a respect/love of history.....so how do we come up with a solution where both sides can work together for a win/win solution.....there has to be a mid point where all parties can start from to move forward.

Regards + HH

Bill
 

bigscoop

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Re: Lets Discuss (like gentlemen) "The Great Divide" - Artifact Sales

bill from lachine said:
Folks,

I've been following this thread all along and it appears there's still a long way to go to find a common ground between the archaeological and detecting communities.

One common purpose we have I believe is a respect/love of history.....so how do we come up with a solution where both sides can work together for a win/win solution.....there has to be a mid point where all parties can start from to move forward.

Regards + HH

Bill

You're right, middle ground is the key, and as Jason already said, this can only begin to take shape "if" the extremist from all venues are taken out of the process. However, apparently most of the extremist within the archeological community in this country are also the ones in control of that community. So........???????? :dontknow:
 

bigscoop

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Re: Lets Discuss (like gentlemen) "The Great Divide" - Artifact Sales

Trust me.....I've been a fool to many things concerning money, a lot of hard lessons learned. :BangHead: But perhaps, the current situation really needs to all come down to money? Maybe that is our best approach and ally? "We"...the entire treasure hunting community, could provide a lot of revenue to help support the archeological community if we could just meet on that middle ground to discuss the possibilities. Personally, I would have no problem with paying a yearly fee in order to obtain a license/permit, nor would I have a problem with reporting all of my designated finds so the state could evaluate the item's significance....."if"......a fair and just platform for their obtaining the item could be administered, if in fact they desired to own it and felt it was worth the investment. Here's what I'm roughly envisioning:

Think of it like a fishing license, both in-state and out of state, this permit also being a contract that we will agree to the terms and regulations in place. When in the field this permit must be visibly displayed on your person, a small but necessary inconvenience, but one that could be easily worked around. These permits could be purchased online, or "through area retailers" which would also help bring customers into their places of business and also bring additional business support and their dollars into the mix. Badly needed revenues are now being generated in the form of in-state and out of state dollars.

Say, 50% of these generated revenues are then set aside for the state's artifact buyback program so that the state (a joint council) would have a means to fairly assume control of those select items they deem, "important & significant enough to invest in". A ton of cost being cut here and a lot of badly needed revenues being generated. Up to this point it's clearly a WIN-WIN for everyone.

Forms, there's going to have to be the required forms for reporting those designated finds, which could easily be offered as printable downloads off the internet, also access to a "friendly & helpful" Artifact Hotline.

This is just a very rough idea of what I think could work to everyone's benefit. It really has all the tools in place to build something very special. Is it going to stop all the problems? No, but then again, nothing every will. But it is a very solid foundation in the form of a viable solution to an entire host of existing problems and issues and the bring together of two forces on the same mission. :dontknow: Seems like it could work out really well.

PS: I'd really like to get a lot of thoughts and input on this possible solution from all the various parties.
 

bill from lachine

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Re: Lets Discuss (like gentlemen) "The Great Divide" - Artifact Sales

Bigscoop,

Given the budget constraints at both the Federal and State level....probably the best case scenario approach would be to put our position forward as a business case...rather than an us against them.

As Jason had stated if the redundant artifacts in museums, warehouses, etc....were sold that frees up funds for the archaeologists, museums, etc...to do new digs and/or acquire new artifacts which they don't currently have.

On our side of the equation were prepared to pay a permit fee, etc....which provides funds for the government be it at the State or Federal level.....any finds we make that fall within whatever historic parameters are decided are reported by detectorists...much like the PAS (Portable Antiquities Scheme) in the UK.

If they are decided as being important at the museum level they are paid for out of the surplus funds made available from selling their redundant stored artifacts....those that are not deemed sufficiently important stays with the detectorist for their collection and/or sale as they see fit.

Regards + HH

Bill



bigscoop said:
bill from lachine said:
Folks,

I've been following this thread all along and it appears there's still a long way to go to find a common ground between the archaeological and detecting communities.

One common purpose we have I believe is a respect/love of history.....so how do we come up with a solution where both sides can work together for a win/win solution.....there has to be a mid point where all parties can start from to move forward.

Regards + HH

Bill

You're right, middle ground is the key, and as Jason already said, this can only begin to take shape "if" the extremist from all venues are taken out of the process. However, apparently most of the extremist within the archeological community in this country are also the ones in control of that community. So........???????? :dontknow:
 

bigscoop

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Re: Lets Discuss (like gentlemen) "The Great Divide" - Artifact Sales

Pretty much the same general systems/ideas....but I really think it's important that a % of the generated permit revenues is required to be set aside in a secure fund for the buyback process. This insures that this money can never be tapped into and drained to help subsidize other projects as so often happens to many government run programs. And I think you may be right about the business approach, because it all comes down to money, effectiveness and efficency in the end......."Better business"
 

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ScubaFinder

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Re: Lets Discuss (like gentlemen) "The Great Divide" - Artifact Sales

Glad you guys are continuing this discussion. I apologize for dropping out so rapidly, but I have interests in two projects in two different Caribbean countries, both of which are taking most of my time right now. I will return to this soon, but you guys are doing as good (or maybe better) without me. Kudos to all of you!

Jason
 

bigscoop

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Re: Lets Discuss (like gentlemen) "The Great Divide" - Artifact Sales

ScubaFinder said:
Glad you guys are continuing this discussion. I apologize for dropping out so rapidly, but I have interests in two projects in two different Caribbean countries, both of which are taking most of my time right now. I will return to this soon, but you guys are doing as good (or maybe better) without me. Kudos to all of you!

Jason

The problem is that it's "too few" people discussing it. :dontknow: Would be great if people would get involved, and it would be "FANTASTIC" if we could get a few open minded archeologist involved in the discussion. :thumbsup:
 

bigscoop

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Re: Lets Discuss (like gentlemen) "The Great Divide" - Artifact Sales

I think we are in need of some fairly reasonable, “data”. Anyone have any ideas on how we could get an estimated fix on our total numbers here in Florida, i.e., salvers, collectors, hobbyist, etc.? Also how many Mding tourist possibly visit the state each year? Without these numbers there is no way to play with the numbers in terms of possible revenues, etc. I think this is a “must-have” for us if we really want to present “an impressive” reason for Florida lawmakers to consider change. :dontknow:
 

Jon Phillips

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Re: Lets Discuss (like gentlemen) "The Great Divide" - Artifact Sales

Online petition maybe? :dontknow:

I think we would need the backing of the manufacturers and retail dealers to really get going. They have the most to lose financially, and they would have the most access to people that buy metal detecting/gold mining/treasure diving/etc. equipment, through their customer databases.

Since the individual states section got moved to the bottom a while back, I think most of them have been fairly quiet.....plus this thread being in the "Shipwreck" section, will probably get it overlooked by quite a few people.
 

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ScubaFinder

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Re: Lets Discuss (like gentlemen) "The Great Divide" - Artifact Sales

I agree shipwrecks is no longer the place for this. Originally I wanted to discuss the sale of artifacts, and if there was a way archaeologists could agree with the sale of some pieces of history. Since that time, the thread has taken on a new life, and a new subject. Maybe you guys can "restart" it in a better area with a more fitting title. BigScoop, you should write a synopsis of what we have discussed here. We have a decent plan in the works, but I agree there is not enough input from the masses. Maybe in a different category with a more fitting title (and less long winded posts by me) it would see more action.

I agree the manufacturers would be the best place to get #'s. Kellyco would likely tell you haw many detectors they have sold to Florida. I'm betting it would be a big number.
 

Twisted One

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Re: Lets Discuss (like gentlemen) "The Great Divide" - Artifact Sales

Jon Phillips said:
Online petition maybe? :dontknow:

I think we would need the backing of the manufacturers and retail dealers to really get going. They have the most to lose financially, and they would have the most access to people that buy metal detecting/gold mining/treasure diving/etc. equipment, through their customer databases.

Since the individual states section got moved to the bottom a while back, I think most of them have been fairly quiet.....plus this thread being in the "Shipwreck" section, will probably get it overlooked by quite a few people.

Minelabs already showed they are willing to help, they wrote a check for over $40,000 to the Task Force for Metal Detecting Rights.
 

Dr. Syn

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Hmm, having read all the posts here, a lot of good ideas. Thinking instead of calling them Treasure Hunters, maybe Treasure Savers would be better.
From what I read the Archies and museums don't have the cash flow to look for all that's missing. And if the Treasure Savers and Archies/museums would work together, to benefit each, it would be a win win for both. There's how many Archies in Florida? That's a lot of land for them to cover, can't even really give a quick peek at best. How many Hunters are there in Florida? A heck of a lot more. They can cover a lot more ground/water and do a better job of it.

So why not work together? Let the TS folks go out and look for the booty. When it's found the Archies can come look at it, and if it's say a one of a kind, then with the Government's help they can pay for the said item. Like in the UK a neutral party determines the value. Anything else that's found goes to the TS. TS can do with it as they please.

A win for both, the Govt/Arch/museum get the prize that's been lost to the world, the TS gets their bounty on it, plus the additional use of the other items, for funding future hunts if need be. They also are given the documentation of such to prove providence so they can legally sell or donate said items.

Really how many pieces of eight does a museum need? or Civil War bullets? or pottery shards? or arrow heads? And how many lost treasures might be found if the TS folks are allowed to look for them?

Sure if someone stumbles on the Templar Treasure like Nick Cage did, then the whole world would benefit. The Archies would have years of study, the museums would have world class exhibits, the TS would get their just rewards, and could then add to it the book/movie deals, personal appearances, and so on. As for foreign Govts. claiming ownership, I say prove it! How much treasure that these places claim, is actually theirs? Was it mined in another country using slave labor, was it stolen from Native tribes? Then it's not theirs. Pretty simple.

And as for licenses, why not. If you really want to hunt for this stuff, then it's just a cost of doing business. And proof to those that you do know what you are doing.

A lost treasure does no one any good, okay, maybe the town where it's supposedly lost, they sell maps and host folks looking for it.
But like said, they can still benefit. True hunts, will bring money into their coffers, and if/when found it could even increase tourism/dollars coming to them. Tours of the site, souvenirs, videos of the items, maybe even displays of some of the found items.

What needs done, is for both sides to get together, use common sense, work together, and make it work. For the benefit of everyone. But what do I know? I'm just a straw brained old Scarecrow, but I'm pretty sure that even I could come up with a better way of doing so then is going on now.
 

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