Lost Dutchman Mine vs. Hidden Caches

[gollum]

Everybody wants to find old Jacob Waltz' Lost Mine. Maybe almost as valuable would be to find the locations of his caches.

While most of the long time Dutch Hunters know the difference, the greatest majority of people don't seem to (at least not from what I have been reading anyway). I would really like for Joe and some others to expound on this subject (if possible).

Here's some of what I know:

In his final time on this Earth, Jacob Waltz told both Julia Thomas and Rhinehart Petrasch that while he was too infirm to get to his mine, he would take Julia and Rhiney to his caches. They would take the wagon as far as the Board House. He would stay in the wagon and show them where to go. This tells me that his caches would be fairly easy to get to from the known location of the Board House. Maybe well hidden, but not too far from known trails/roads.

His mine on the other hand, was not as easy. In all the times he tried to tell Rhinehart about its' location, he would get fed up and tell Rhiney that when he was gone they would be sorry because his mine was in a very rough place in the mountains.

I have read that a man named Henry Burns found , at least, one of those caches in the 1950s. Henry Burns is a story unto himself that has received far too little attention (maybe on purpose). In the late 1800s, the wagon train he and his family were traveling West with was ambushed by Apaches. Most were killed. At nine years old, he was kept with the Apache until being released at age 19. After being released, he went to a place where the Apache used to visit and built a small ranch. There, he located several silver claims. He also traded silver, gems (Superstition Amethyst), and other things with the Apache. He supposedly found several of the Peralta Mines. One supposedly contained on of Jacob Waltz' caches of bonanza gold ore. Where we are now back to the subject at hand.

Jacob Waltz was a very wily guy. He was in his 60s when he first found his Gold Mine. He knew that his days of getting to this hard to access area were limited. I think in his first few years of owning the mine he spent most of his time transporting his ore to easier to access caches in the Superstition Foothills. Does anybody wonder why there were so many sightings of Old Jake in so many different places in the Supers? It would be understandable if he hadn't found anything and was searching the mountains for his legacy. He already had enough gold in his mine to last several lifetimes. He didn't need to search for anything else. The old man only had one place to go in those mountains. I believe all those sightings were of him tending to his hidden caches. He may have been going into the mountains from different locations to throw off possible followers is my only caveat. I say this because based on what he told Julia and Rhiney, his caches were accessible from the Board House.

Anybody else please expound on what I have written so far please.

Best-Mike

 

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[Oroblanco]

Tag post please ignore <Thanks Mike for posting this, ought to be interesting!>
Oroblanco

 

[gollum]

Ludwig G. Rosecrans said it best when he said:

“There is a great deal of interest in the mine, but there is little substance.”

Hey Jeep,

While I welcome all opinions, I do ask that you either ask questions (if you don't know), or back up any statements you make (if you think you do know).

Now, this isn't a thread that will go into whether or not the LDM exists. If you think it doesn't, then that is up to you, but it shows a profound lack of knowledge of the subject. The last time anyone has been able to make a decent argument against the existence of the LDM was in the 1980s. Since then, there has been a lot of information that has come to light on the subject. The ore from under Waltz' bed has been tested against known ores from the area, and been found to be unique. Records of Waltz' Life have been traced to his birth in 1810. Many of the old time Dutch Hunters have passed on and their archives have gotten around.

The evidence for the existence of the LDM is now greater than the evidence for it being a tall tale. We used to listen to officials that told us no appreciable amounts of gold have ever been mined from the Supers. Since then, I have personal knowledge of a trunkload of bonanza gold ore that came out of the Supers. Most people that have been around the subject for more than a day have personal (usually very private) knowledge of gold coming from the Supers. Used to be, we listened to a professional geologist that said there is no evidence of any gold deposits in the Supers. Since then we have an air quality test from NOAA, that states when their aircraft flew over the Supers, the sniffer picked up very large amounts of mercury vapours in the air. That is indicative of a very large gold deposit or very large gold refining operation. I could go on, but that should suffice.

Best-Mike

 

[BenThereDoneThat]

Marking this......Thank you 'G' for bringing back some sanity to this place

 

[arkhunter]

good info

 

[gollum]

Come on Joe!

I also know that Azmula, Jim Hatt, Aurum, and a few others look in here. I think that they could make some very enlightening contributions.

I also know that those two subjects aren't topics that get a lot of play with old Dutch Hunters. I don't think it is because the stories are BS, but because the LDC (Lost Dutchman Caches) would be a lot easier to find than the LDM (Lost Dutchman Mine), therefore the more knowledgeable people tend to be more tight lipped. Also because of the several caches associated with Henry Burns. WHAT SAY YOU, FOLKS?

Also, another person I have asked about but have not gotten answer to is a man named Chuck Crawford. Any unbiased third party info?

Best-Mike

 

[Oroblanco]

Come on Joe!

I also know that Azmula, Jim Hatt, Aurum, and a few others look in here. I think that they could make some very enlightening contributions.

I also know that those two subjects aren't topics that get a lot of play with old Dutch Hunters. I don't think it is because the stories are BS, but because the LDC (Lost Dutchman Caches) would be a lot easier to find than the LDM (Lost Dutchman Mine), therefore the more knowledgeable people tend to be more tight lipped. Also because of the several caches associated with Henry Burns. WHAT SAY YOU, FOLKS?

Also, another person I have asked about but have not gotten answer to is a man named Chuck Crawford. Any unbiased third party info?

Best-Mike

Perhaps an EM invitation would get some of the folks mentioned to participate? Just a thought.
Roy

 

[gollum]

If you think so, then why not show some of that knowledge? I'm not a dlck. I told you that I welcome all opinions. I'm also not above admitting when I'm wrong or changing my opinion of a subject based on new information.

Show me where I am wrong about the LDM. Factually.

I stand by my earlier statement. All you did was post some smarmy dismissive statement that was absolutely untrue! "There is a great deal of interest in the mine, but there is little substance." There is a lot of substance. That doesn't mean its' true beyond a shadow of a doubt, but like I said before: There is more proof of its' authenticity than it being a tall tale.


Best-Mike

 

[Cachefinder]

gollum,

I have often though about this same idea of little caches all over the Supers.

Why not? He could have work his mine for lets say a year or so packing out lbs of AU,

then hide small amounts all over?

Well If he did do this- how did he keep track of the placement of the caches?
**possible answer with a question,
Is it possible that all the different caches are an equal distance from the Board House?
- that might explain the different "sighting of Jacob" in different areas

< Would he have buried these mini caches? Or where they hidden in rocks/caves?>

 

[gollum]

Waltz was intimately familiar with the Supers.

He knew that he wasn't getting any younger. He would have hidden more than one cache in places he thought he would still be able to access when he wasn't able to get to his mine any more.

He didn't write down anything (except possibly one map). That means that he would have hidden the caches where he would have been able to easily remember where they were hidden.

....................and if we believe Jeep, the reason he didn't write anything down is because there was nothing to write about! Actually, that's not what he said. He only quoted "Doc" Rosecrans' statement. I am interested in finding out more about what he thinks.

Best-Mike

 

[Oroblanco]

Gollum - do you think it possible, that the bonanza ore you personally witnessed that came from the Superstitions, could have been the result of finding one of Waltz's caches? Did the ore resemble the known specimens from Waltz? Thank you in advance,
Oroblanco

 

[gollum]

Gollum - do you think it possible, that the bonanza ore you personally witnessed that came from the Superstitions, could have been the result of finding one of Waltz's caches? Did the ore resemble the known specimens from Waltz? Thank you in advance,
Oroblanco

I didn't personally witness it. My friend did, and I trust his word implicitly. I don't think it came from Waltz' Mine because it was White Quartz that looked like somebody had shot it with a shotgun filled with golden pellets.

Best-Mike

 

[Oroblanco]

Gollum wrote

I have read that a man named Henry Burns found , at least, one of those caches in the 1950s. Henry Burns is a story unto himself that has received far too little attention (maybe on purpose). In the late 1800s, the wagon train he and his family were traveling West with was ambushed by Apaches. Most were killed. At nine years old, he was kept with the Apache until being released at age 19. After being released, he went to a place where the Apache used to visit and built a small ranch. There, he located several silver claims. He also traded silver, gems (Superstition Amethyst), and other things with the Apache. He supposedly found several of the Peralta Mines. One supposedly contained on of Jacob Waltz' caches of bonanza gold ore. Where we are now back to the subject at hand.

Jacob Waltz was a very wily guy. He was in his 60s when he first found his Gold Mine. He knew that his days of getting to this hard to access area were limited. I think in his first few years of owning the mine he spent most of his time transporting his ore to easier to access caches in the Superstition Foothills. Does anybody wonder why there were so many sightings of Old Jake in so many different places in the Supers? It would be understandable if he hadn't found anything and was searching the mountains for his legacy. He already had enough gold in his mine to last several lifetimes. He didn't need to search for anything else. The old man only had one place to go in those mountains. I believe all those sightings were of him tending to his hidden caches. He may have been going into the mountains from different locations to throw off possible followers is my only caveat. I say this because based on what he told Julia and Rhiney, his caches were accessible from the Board House.

Anybody else please expound on what I have written so far please.

Well seeing that no one has raised objections on this portion, I will. According to Sims Ely, there were only three caches made by Waltz, and by the same source, the two smaller ones had already been retrieved by Waltz during his lifetime, leaving only the large one. So if Henry Burns found one and removed the gold ore, there are none in the mountains for anyone to find today.

How many caches do you believe Waltz made? Thank you in advance,
Oroblanco

 

[gollum]

No way to know for sure Roy.

Read Waltz' statement to Rhinehart Petrasch where he said that:

.........but he would point out the trail over the mountain from there and Julia and Rhinehart would have to go in by themselves to get the CACHES.

That tells me that at the time of his death he still had multiple caches hidden just over the mountain from the Board House.

Best-Mike

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

tag

 

[Oroblanco]

No way to know for sure Roy.

Read Waltz' statement to Rhinehart Petrasch where he said that:

.........but he would point out the trail over the mountain from there and Julia and Rhinehart would have to go in by themselves to get the CACHES.

That tells me that at the time of his death he still had multiple caches hidden just over a mountain from the Board House.

Best-Mike

Hmm, then what about this, quote

The mine and cache are in those mountains you see over there to the east, the Superstition Mountains. My partner and I took the gold out of the mine, as I've told you, and we made three caches-two of them small, one large. Before leaving the place, after I saw my partner was gone, I removed the gold from one small cache. And I went back once-long after the Apaches killed my partner-and brought the gold away from the other small cache. But the large cache is still there.

Chapter 8 Page 98 of Ely's Book <1966 edition>

Isn't it possible that someone simply added an "S" to "cache" in your extract? Remember, Ely was one of EDIT only two VERY FEW of our published sources ever to actually interview both Julia and Reiney, and as a general rule the older sources are usually correct. I wonder where and why the one remaining cache became multiplied?
Roy

 

[gollum]

Since I don't have the book, you are going to have to quote a good bit more of that interview.

Who is stating that they removed gold from the mine? J&R or E&B? It can't be Julia & Rhiney, because Waltz never got the chance to show them where the mine/cache was.

Also, the caches were nowhere near the mine if you believe Rhiney was truthful about what Waltz told him.

Mike

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

In Sims Ely's book, I will have to quote the entire thing (which starts with something you eluded to): but I think you mis-read Roy's post.

Jacob here is speaking with Thomas and Rheiney, and he says he cannot explain it good enough, that he will have to take them there.

quote:

"Jacob Waltz lifted his hand and pointed eastward to where rocky ramparts were outlined faintly against the sky"
"The mine and the cache are in those mountains you see over there to the east, the Superstition Mountains. My partner and
I took the gold out of the mine, as I've told you, and we made three caches - two of 'em small, one large. Before leaving the
place, after I saw my partner was gone, I removed the gold from one small cache. And I went back once - long after the
Apaches killed my partner and brought the gold away from the other small cache. But the large cache is still there"

"How come you never went back for that one?" Rheiney wanted to know.

"Well, there were reasons, so at least they seemed like reasons at the time, Waltz replied."

Notice that Waltz said cache, not caches, that were left on the mountain.

B

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

To finish the thought, on that proposed trip, Waltz said they would go in March, weather good or bad.

They planned the trip accordingly. (info taken from Ely's book)

They would go by horse and wagon across the desert to the cow-house, to a place Waltz had seen a woman and two children before, an estimated distance of 50 miles, and they would leave the wagon there. Jacob and Thomas would ride the horses into the mountains, taking with them their own food and bedding, and Reiney would pack his outfit in on foot.

B

By the way, Ely's book also says, (Waltz speaking) " The gold came out of a mine, of course. It was taken out by the two of us and stored nearby."

"Of course, Helena, you and Reiney couldn't do anything with a mine, " he said. "You'd have to know about mining for that, and you'd neeed cash capital. Besides, the mine is in awful rough country, away from water - so rough that you can be right at the mine without seeing it. I wouldn't even try to tell you where the mine is if it wasn't for the cache. But you can't find one without the other."

 

[gollum]

HAHAHA

So, we have two conflicting stories regarding some aspect of the LDM. What an unusual occurance!

I guess we need to find a third or fourth version and see the best three out of five! HAHAHA



Best-Mike