Mystery “Shoulder Belt Plate?” ID Needed

[ANTIQUARIAN]

A fellow detectorist purportedly "found this plate here in Ontario". He feels that it’s a “British 1812 Shoulder Belt Plate”… I’m not so sure?

Any thoughts on its country of origin and date of manufacture would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks,
David

 

[duggap]

I have a copy of American Military Belt Plates, by O'Donnell and Campbell. Trust me I didn't go thru the entire book, but I found three that look close to yours. Plate 30 (ca. 1790) is an engraved plate but the back long bar is shorter than yours. Same for plate 75. But plate 76 looks to have the right length bar for yours. It is shown as a shoulder belt plate, regulation 1808 pattern, enlisted, ca. 1808-1819. This one is also engraved, but the engraving looks to possible been added after manufacture.

 

[ANTIQUARIAN]

I have a copy of American Military Belt Plates, by O'Donnell and Campbell. Trust me I didn't go thru the entire book, but I found three that look close to yours. Plate 30 (ca. 1790) is an engraved plate but the back long bar is shorter than yours. Same for plate 75. But plate 76 looks to have the right length bar for yours. It is shown as a shoulder belt plate, regulation 1808 pattern, enlisted, ca. 1808-1819. This one is also engraved, but the engraving looks to possible been added after manufacture.

Thanks very much for your help dug!
So, am I safe to assume that this piece is likely a War of 1812 British Shoulder Belt Plate?

Dave

PS. I've put this book on my Christmas 'Amazon Gift Card' wishlist!

 

[Iron Patch]

Several years back I talked to someone with a large collection of 1812 plates and he told me to tell the difference between American and British you measure the diameter, and I believe it was the space of the attachments to the edge. If you can give me all that I'll ask the question because by coincidence today I'll be writing the person who originally owned the collection, and maybe owns it again now.

 

[duggap]

Listen to what Iron Patch is saying. If you get that book there is also plate 78, that I didn't notice before, and it could also be a match. It has a different set of dimensions than plate 76. It shows a little different time period than 76. So to be exact you would need to provide measurements in mm.

 

[ANTIQUARIAN]

Several years back I talked to someone with a large collection of 1812 plates and he told me to tell the difference between American and British you measure the diameter, and I believe it was the space of the attachments to the edge. If you can give me all that I'll ask the question because by coincidence today I'll be writing the person who originally owned the collection, and maybe owns it again now.

Thanks very much for responding IP!
Unfortunately, I don't have access to this piece.
Let me PM this guy and see if I can get the dimensions and I'll PM you back.

Thanks again,
Dave

 

[ANTIQUARIAN]

Listen to what Iron Patch is saying. If you get that book there is also plate 78, that I didn't notice before, and it could also be a match. It has a different set of dimensions than plate 76. It shows a little different time period than 76. So to be exact you would need to provide measurements in mm.

Thanks very much dug, I'll send the guy an email ASAP!
Dave

 

[Castineman1779]

A fellow detectorist purportedly "found this plate here in Ontario". He feels that it’s a “British 1812 Shoulder Belt Plate”… I’m not so sure?

Any thoughts on its country of origin and date of manufacture would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks,

David

Very nice shoulder belt plate that is no doubt by where found British . Except for Arnolds attempt to make Canada the 14th colony in late 1775 no Americans would have been Ontario during the American REvolution. However the War of 1812 Canada is history rich in British relics. This example with peened over what folks call "Puppy Paws" is how both American and British plates were made in both wars. The difference however is the WAr of 1812 plates were more egg shaped and the American Rev WAr examples oval and larger. Again place found speaks a lot to country of origin. Hope this helps. Gary

 

[BuckleBoy]

with the peened on attachments, it's the right time frame for early 1800s.

 

[ANTIQUARIAN]

Very nice shoulder belt plate that is no doubt by where found British . Except for Arnolds attempt to make Canada the 14th colony in late 1775 no Americans would have been Ontario during the American REvolution. However the War of 1812 Canada is history rich in British relics. This example with peened over what folks call "Puppy Paws" is how both American and British plates were made in both wars. The difference however is the WAr of 1812 plates were more egg shaped and the American Rev WAr examples oval and larger. Again place found speaks a lot to country of origin. Hope this helps. Gary

Gary, I just wanted to personally thank you for the information you provided on this piece, I sure wish it had been me who found it though!
I've detected War of 1812 sites here in Ontario, but I've never seen or heard of anything like this being found here before.
I knew the experts here on Tnet would let me know what it really is and as usual, I wasn't disappointed!

Thanks again Gary,
Dave

with the peened on attachments, it's the right time frame for early 1800s.

Thanks very much for the information Buck!
Dave

 

[LORDNELSON]

I know this is an old thread....but I thought I would clarify what has been said on here already. Firstly...your cross belt plate is American 1808 pattern (War of 1812)...100% undisputed. You can tell by the design of the puppy paws on the back as well as the width for the 1808 pattern.....there were two other different 1812 American plain cross belt plates of different sizes as well..BUT....all of them have the same design of puppy paws on the back. British ones are more refined and round..rather than an oval washer peened over a stud and left rough..like the American ones....the British ones were smoothed over so the stud becomes very difficult to detect. I have added a picture of the front and back of a British example, the left puppy paw has been damaged. Here is a link to my FB Page which will help some with 1812 items they find....I have been collecting 1812 for almost 30 years.

https://www.facebook.com/RollasonWarof1812/

 

[Bonzododa71]

Hi A, I found two within 10 feet of each other, I believe they are US as there were many US buttons all over the place no British stuff at all....HH....Bonz

 

[ANTIQUARIAN]

I know this is an old thread....but I thought I would clarify what has been said on here already. Firstly...your cross belt plate is American 1808 pattern (War of 1812)...100% undisputed. You can tell by the design of the puppy paws on the back as well as the width for the 1808 pattern.....there were two other different 1812 American plain cross belt plates of different sizes as well..BUT....all of them have the same design of puppy paws on the back. British ones are more refined and round..rather than an oval washer peened over a stud and left rough..like the American ones....the British ones were smoothed over so the stud becomes very difficult to detect. I have added a picture of the front and back of a British example, the left puppy paw has been damaged. Here is a link to my FB Page which will help some with 1812 items they find....I have been collecting 1812 for almost 30 years.

https://www.facebook.com/RollasonWarof1812/

Thank you so much for all of the detailed information Lord Nelson... in all honesty, I'd forgotten that I'd even posted this thread.
I sure would love to dig one of these US beauties here in Southern Ontario!

Best of luck to you,
Dave

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Hi A, I found two within 10 feet of each other, I believe they are US as there were many US buttons all over the place no British stuff at all....HH....Bonz

Thanks very much for sharing the pics of your American 1808 pattern Cross Belt Plate (War of 1812)
Congrats on your amazing find... I'm very jealous!
Dave