new show on the dutchman

[Aric]

Thank you

 

Amazon Forum Fav 👍

A History of Mining on the Kenai Peninsula, Alaska - Grab it through Amazon!

[StreamlineGold]

It's a heavily mineralized area to the s/e of the mountain so the existence of gold mines among the numerous silver and copper mines is not a stretch of the imagination by any means...

 

[johnmark29020]

It's a heavily mineralized area to the s/e of the mountain so the existence of gold mines among the numerous silver and copper mines is not a stretch of the imagination by any means...

There usually is pockets of gold in silver mines. The reason the old timers never looked in the south east is waltzs statement. He said it was a gold vein,not pocket gold. Gold vein in a silver district is rare.
Plus someone was misleading people away. I am of the opion that many deaths contributed to indians. Infact was a person or persons who knew the general location. If not the exact spot. Look at how many people claimed to know where it was located. Had gold to prove it. Turned up dead.
Now everyone is looking in the right part of the mountains. The location will be found.

 

[gollum]

Probably the greatest reason for the LDM NOT to be in the SE is because during the time that Waltz was working his mine, there were a WHOLE LOT of working silver mines in the area. NO WAY for Waltz to come and go without being seen by other miners.

THAT is my biggest reason for not believing the "Pit Mine" is not the LDM.

Mike

 

[azblackbird]

Gold vein in a silver district is rare.

A pure vein of gold in a silver district may be rare, but I've read numerous assay reports where the ore tested almost a 50/50 mixture of gold and silver. I know of a few areas in the Bradshaws where that's the case. If I recall the reports, it was very hard to refine just because of it being so mixed.

 

[johnmark29020]

A pure vein of gold in a silver district may be rare, but I've read numerous assay reports where the ore tested almost a 50/50 mixture of gold and silver. I know of a few areas in the Bradshaws where that's the case. If I recall the reports, it was very hard to refine just because of it being so mixed.

Exactly. You and I are not in disagreement here. The point that im making is they never thought to look in a silver district for the type of gold waltzs had in his possession. The gold waltzs had as described by legend would be easier to refine.

I followed waltzs direction right to what I believe is the mine. I didnt know we weren't supposed to find gold vein in a sil ver district. So I kept going.
I believe the old timers did it the other way. I think once they reached the sil ver district they stopped. Believeing they had made a mistake.

 

[Cubfan64]

Probably the greatest reason for the LDM NOT to be in the SE is because during the time that Waltz was working his mine, there were a WHOLE LOT of working silver mines in the area. NO WAY for Waltz to come and go without being seen by other miners.

THAT is my biggest reason for not believing the "Pit Mine" is not the LDM.

Mike

Mike - When I originally heard the "Pit Mine/Silver Chief" story I thought the same thing. After a little reading however I started wondering...

Unless I'm mistaken, the Roger's Mining District started sometime in the mid to late 1870's (someone correct me if I'm wrong please), so the question for me becomes one of timing. When did Waltz discover his mine or source of gold? When was the last time he was there?

I don't know if the "pit mine" is/was the LDM or not, but I think an argument could be made that Waltz may have found it and worked it prior to the other mines in the area being discovered and claimed and that at some point in time he grew fearful of returning to it possibly BECAUSE other mines had been found in the area. Perhaps that's why he was only going to take Julia and Rhiney to the caches that he had made? Perhaps he wasn't afraid of the Native Americans in the area, but in reality was fearful of the folks who had found and claimed the other mines in the area?

I still don't understand why Waltz never put in a claim on his mine, but there are certainly some plausible theories out there. I just don't think anymore that timing of the Roger's District being worked means that Waltz's mine (or source of gold) wasn't in that area.

 

[djui5]

I struggled with that mine for a long time, went back and forth, argued with myself in the mirror, etc. well maybe not argued with myself.

I finally came to the conclusion that it isn't the LDM for a few reasons. When you're there it feels like it's the right place, based on "clues" passed down for generations. Two pits and a tunnel. Extremely rough terrain, I've literally walked on top of trees/vegetation because it was so thick. Cave across from the mine. Climb up and you can see the military trail, etc. there is even a "cabin" or rock house in the canyon itself at the mouth. I could never find this house. Also the horse with the dog ear. These all lead you to believe it's the right place. When you sit at the bottom pit and ponder that Waltz actually worked this mine, that it's the LDM, it's a very powerful feeling. The imagination starts to run wild. I enjoyed it quite a lot.

When I leave, all that goes away. Then I really start to consider if that could be the mine. I decided that there's no way for a couple of reasons that I could never reconcile.

1: This mine is very very easy to get to from the QCU. You head east through the saddle, climb the ridge in the distance, and it's on the other side. Waltz would have explained this to Julia/Reiney. Why make it hard? He wanted them to find it. He gave them directions. They didn't go anywhere in this direction at all. The fact that it's so easy to describe how to get there, even if you went in the Iron Mountain side, is hard to let go.

2: This area was HEAVILY mined in the 1880' and who knows how far before that. There is a map with 25 mines around Iron Mountain on it dated 1882. It also shows the mining around Picket Post and Mineral Mountain areas, not far from here. There were people everywhere as early as 1882, probably the mid 1870's if I had to guess. One of these days I'll do research on the mines to find out when they were filed. My point here is Waltz couldn't have mined this area prior to 1882 without being known. He died in1891, and I find it hard to believe he went 10 years without visiting his mine. I could be wrong though.

So lets pretend he actually visited the mine last in the 1870's, before the filing of the Randolph District mines, and wasn't spotted. This still leaves the question as to why Julia/Rhiney never found the mine, and never even went to this side of the mountains to search for the mine. They headed straight for Weavers Needle. How can you explain that? Just the words "Head East from the board house", or "Head East from the South side of the Mountain".

Thats is how I feel about the pit mine. I wonder how many "clues" were fabricated to lead someone to this mine. It wouldn't surprise me.

 

[johnmark29020]

I struggled with that mine for a long time, went back and forth, argued with myself in the mirror, etc. well maybe not argued with myself.

I finally came to the conclusion that it isn't the LDM for a few reasons. When you're there it feels like it's the right place, based on "clues" passed down for generations. Two pits and a tunnel. Extremely rough terrain, I've literally walked on top of trees/vegetation because it was so thick. Cave across from the mine. Climb up and you can see the military trail, etc. there is even a "cabin" or rock house in the canyon itself at the mouth. I could never find this house. Also the horse with the dog ear. These all lead you to believe it's the right place. When you sit at the bottom pit and ponder that Waltz actually worked this mine, that it's the LDM, it's a very powerful feeling. The imagination starts to run wild. I enjoyed it quite a lot.

When I leave, all that goes away. Then I really start to consider if that could be the mine. I decided that there's no way for a couple of reasons that I could never reconcile.

1: This mine is very very easy to get to from the QCU. You head east through the saddle, climb the ridge in the distance, and it's on the other side. Waltz would have explained this to Julia/Reiney. Why make it hard? He wanted them to find it. He gave them directions. They didn't go anywhere in this direction at all. The fact that it's so easy to describe how to get there, even if you went in the Iron Mountain side, is hard to let go.

2: This area was HEAVILY mined in the 1880' and who knows how far before that. There is a map with 25 mines around Iron Mountain on it dated 1882. It also shows the mining around Picket Post and Mineral Mountain areas, not far from here. There were people everywhere as early as 1882, probably the mid 1870's if I had to guess. One of these days I'll do research on the mines to find out when they were filed. My point here is Waltz couldn't have mined this area prior to 1882 without being known. He died in1891, and I find it hard to believe he went 10 years without visiting his mine. I could be wrong though.

So lets pretend he actually visited the mine last in the 1870's, before the filing of the Randolph District mines, and wasn't spotted. This still leaves the question as to why Julia/Rhiney never found the mine, and never even went to this side of the mountains to search for the mine. They headed straight for Weavers Needle. How can you explain that? Just the words "Head East from the board house", or "Head East from the South side of the Mountain".

Thats is how I feel about the pit mine. I wonder how many "clues" were fabricated to lead someone to this mine. It wouldn't surprise me.

I think two maybe more mines stories were mixed together. Either by accident or on purpose. The answer to why waltzs was on the south east and not seen are in the direction. Also if you read the interviews of the old miners in the home.
They say waltz was working a old spanish mine. So he was seen. Many of the old timers knew his general location.
Enough time passed that the old timers were no longer in the mtn. The newbies like homes only knew a peace.
It happens on jobs all the time. People die,move,get fired, or just retire. Leaving one or two old timers.
I think that's what happened and when the newbie needed to know the info. It was to late. Of course the people that did see waltz's may have considered him a friend,or they may have been offended by Holmes trying to steal waltzs mine. Claim jumper were considered lower than dirt.

 

[deducer]

Finally, an interesting discussion. Hopefully this continues.

 

[somehiker]

It all began with this post in 2008 :

Joe Ribaudo

Post subject: LOST OR.....FOUND? Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 4:18 pm

Expert Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm Posts: 5256

Once again, last year's Rendezvous brought forth a new book. Jack San Felice continued what is fast becoming a Rendezvous tradition. Lost El Dorado Of Jacob Waltz is full of history and true life adventure. Jack's twenty years of research and practical experience hiking the Superstitions has produced another valuable resource for all Dutch Hunters. Saving the best for (pretty much) last, and starting on page 114, Jack concludes his book with what he believes to be the location of the LDM and Lost /Two Soldiers mine. He presents a great argument for his case, while leaving out a few important additional clues. For some, the story was not new at all. While many are aware of the mine, not everyone is as convinced as Jack, that the mine could be the Lost Dutchman. The pit mine is located on the north side of a ridge in a highly mineralized area of the Superstitions. There are a number of silver mines in that section of the mountains and gold has been found as well. It is actually ten miles due east of Weaver's Needle, which flies in the face of a very famous clue. Not everyone knows that P.C. Bicknell practically pinpointed that location as where he would look for the LDM. This topic is meant to debate the pros and cons of Jack's assertions. Few people have been inside the pit mine since it was cleaned out in modern times, but a number have been to the site. As Jack has written, it's no cakewalk. Does anyone know the true history of this mine? If so, let's see your story. Joe Ribaudo

 

[somehiker]

Apparently Joe is the only one active on these forums, who has an "inside line" to those who re-opened and worked this "pit mine".
Although I haven't purchased or read Jack's book, I believe most of what has been shared by Joe was not from the book itself, including this post by Joe in 2013.....

Joe Ribaudo

Post subject: Re: LOST OR.....FOUND? Posted: Tue Dec 10, 2013 4:42 pm

Expert Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm Posts: 5256

Donald, Lets just suppose that the Pit Mine was a worked out hole in the ground and someone used it for a cache of the gold that was taken out of other mines.......for whatever reason. No artifacts, just a safe place to store their really good ore. Perhaps even stolen loot from.....somewhere. I would not assume that it was an important archaeological dig, although it's possible....maybe. It's also beyond me, and many others. Take care, Joe

 

[somehiker]

Randy:

Thats is how I feel about the pit mine. I wonder how many "clues" were fabricated to lead someone to this mine. It wouldn't surprise me.

Good call

 

[Aric]

I still don't understand why Waltz never put in a claim on his mine, but there are certainly some plausible theories out there. I just don't think anymore that timing of the Roger's District being worked means that Waltz's mine (or source of gold) wasn't in that area.[/QUOTE]


I think one of the reasons why Waltz never filed a claim on the mine was due to the location of the mine. The mine would have to be in the deepest part of the mountains, or far away from his residence. And that would require more traveling time. With the mine that far away he knew he couldn't protect the mine at all times.

 

[gollum]

I personally believe the "Pit Mine" was one of the Peralta/Gonzalez Mines.

I think Waltz got this mine in the late 1860s to early 1870s. Worked it until sometime around the mid 1880s. Snuck in once a year or so hand cobbled enough ore to last the year, then snuck back out. Not easy to do with a bunch of year round working silver mines in the area.

I have said it many times before. I think both the Pit Mine and the Mormon Stope (of the Mammoth Mine) were part of the Peralta/Gonzalez Families' Group of Mines. I think there are good placers underwater around the mouth of Labarge, and something in the neighborhood of Blacktop, as well as something on or near Tortilla. I think Bluff Springs Mt was used to cobble mined ore and keep horses and maybe Horse Mesa was used for the same (hand cobbled gold ore has been found in both places).

AZBLACKBIRD,

When you posted that almost all of the state was geologically mapped, you are correct. Most of the Supers lie on the edge of a volcanic caldera which is well known to be a big producer of all kinds of valuable minerals. On either side of the Supers we have Goldfield to the West and Globe to the East. Both exceedingly rich in minerals. The experts agree (mostly) that any gold or silver in the Supers is hidden by a 40-70 foot thick layer of volcanic tuff and Dacite. What they fail to understand (publicly at least) is that floods, rain washes, and earthquakes expose what is under the tuff here and there. This is where the gold and silver pops up at the surface from time to time. The Spanish/Mexicans weren't stupid. They had been working mines around the world for several hundred years. They knew exactly what to look for in just about every type of geological formation. Just read "De Re Metallica" written by Georgius Agricola in 1556.

When I first got into prospecting, and old timer showed me one of the secrets to finding old Spanish Mines. If you are in an area where the Spanish were known to have operated, look at all the more colorful mountains. That is evidence of mineralization. Hold your hand in the air and spread your fingers apart (fingers pointing up). See how they come together at your hand? Look on the sides of those colorful mountains. Look for the places where all those washes coming down the mountain converge. Mother nature has done a lot of the digging work for you. The Spanish liked to sink tunnels in those convergences. With all the washed down rocks, it also made the small entrances easy to hide.

When Waltz said that "no miner will find my mine", I took that to mean the funnel was only exposed at the top. Maybe exposed by a shearing uplift from an earthquake or a landslide. There was no way for any gold to wash down into a stream and be found by normal "following the color upstream then uphill" methods of prospecting.

Mike

 

[gollum]

MANY people never filed a claim on their mines if they were rich in gold or silver. The second you locate a claim and file the assay, there is always a stampede to your location. If your mine is in a very remote area, and you can keep its location a secret, then you don't locate a claim. If it is in a not so remote place, where you can't come and go without being seen, then locate a bunch of claims in a hurry. Also get some good security.

Mike

 

[Aric]

I personally believe the "Pit Mine" was one of the Peralta/Gonzalez Mines.

I think Waltz got this mine in the late 1860s to early 1870s. Worked it until sometime around the mid 1880s. Snuck in once a year or so hand cobbled enough ore to last the year, then snuck back out. Not easy to do with a bunch of year round working silver mines in the area.

I have said it many times before. I think both the Pit Mine and the Mormon Stope (of the Mammoth Mine) were part of the Peralta/Gonzalez Families' Group of Mines. I think there are good placers underwater around the mouth of Labarge, and something in the neighborhood of Blacktop, as well as something on or near Tortilla. I think Bluff Springs Mt was used to cobble mined ore and keep horses and maybe Horse Mesa was used for the same (hand cobbled gold ore has been found in both places).

AZBLACKBIRD,

When you posted that almost all of the state was geologically mapped, you are correct. Most of the Supers lie on the edge of a volcanic caldera which is well known to be a big producer of all kinds of valuable minerals. On either side of the Supers we have Goldfield to the West and Globe to the East. Both exceedingly rich in minerals. The experts agree (mostly) that any gold or silver in the Supers is hidden by a 40-70 foot thick layer of volcanic tuff and Dacite. What they fail to understand (publicly at least) is that floods, rain washes, and earthquakes expose what is under the tuff here and there. This is where the gold and silver pops up at the surface from time to time. The Spanish/Mexicans weren't stupid. They had been working mines around the world for several hundred years. They knew exactly what to look for in just about every type of geological formation. Just read "De Re Metallica" written by Georgius Agricola in 1556.

When I first got into prospecting, and old timer showed me one of the secrets to finding old Spanish Mines. If you are in an area where the Spanish were known to have operated, look at all the more colorful mountains. That is evidence of mineralization. Hold your hand in the air and spread your fingers apart (fingers pointing up). See how they come together at your hand? Look on the sides of those colorful mountains. Look for the places where all those washes coming down the mountain converge. Mother nature has done a lot of the digging work for you. The Spanish liked to sink tunnels in those convergences. With all the washed down rocks, it also made the small entrances easy to hide.

When Waltz said that "no miner will find my mine", I took that to mean the funnel was only exposed at the top. Maybe exposed by a shearing uplift from an earthquake or a landslide. There was no way for any gold to wash down into a stream and be found by normal "following the color upstream then uphill" methods of prospecting.

Mike

Where I'm from, it's rumored that Waltz had built a small 2 room stone house directly over the entrance which went straight down into the mine.

 

[johnmark29020]

Where I'm from, it's rumored that Waltz had built a small 2 room stone house directly over the entrance which went straight down into the mine.

Waltzs said you couldnt find the mine. Untill you find the house. When and where that house found its way into a cave. I dont know.
The stone house in a cave on the pefil map. I believe is a cut away. Like they use in blue prints. A pic in a pic so to speak.
I think it means the house is on that side of the cannon. Of course thats just a guess

 

[djui5]

Where I'm from, it's rumored that Waltz had built a small 2 room stone house directly over the entrance which went straight down into the mine.

The clue is there is a two room house in a cave near the entrance to the mine, not directly over it. Many people chalk this up to the Angel Basin dwelling, which interestingly Jesse Feldman found P.C. Nicknells name carved into a timber of the house.

 

[Aric]

Waltzs said you couldnt find the mine. Untill you find the house. When and where that house found its way into a cave. I dont know.
The stone house in a cave on the pefil map. I believe is a cut away. Like they use in blue prints. A pic in a pic so to speak.
I think it means the house is on that side of the cannon. Of course thats just a guess

The stone house that was told about is not builtt in a cave. The stone house was built by Waltz during a winter season and it was built out in the open.