new show on the dutchman

[Hal Croves]

Aric,

It was very common practice for both Spanish and later Mexican Miners to carry their tailings several miles from their mine sites. That made it much easier to conceal the actual mines since they couldn't work them year round. On the "Green" LDM Forum, I recall someone posted about finding a very deep crevice somewhere near Peters Mesa/Black Mountain and the crevice contained a whole lot of old tailings.

Mike

Brilliant.

 

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[Aric]

Waltzs said he hid the mine. The way the mexican did. In the reading I've done. The mexican would drag a large bolder over the entrance. I guess he could ve. Built a particle house on top of the entrance.

Also if waltz was working near played out mine. No one would notice. If he added to the tailing piles. Also he could have crushed the rock and sent it down a stream.

One thing for sure. I would want him to hide my car keys.

I think you just answered a question that has had me scratching my head for a long time. Let me ask you this question. Do you think any other Mexican miners ever returned to the mine after Waltz passed away ? Just Mexicans only.

 

[ConceptualizedNetherlandr]

Hard rock mine tailings were basically mud. The ore was hauled to a mill and crushed. Any type of travel could be followed by the natives especially constant high traffic travel.

Seems every LDM thread goes in multiple directions with I thinks, I believe, I feel this or that, so and so said, ect. Never any verifiable facts.

Back to the show!

Don't forget the host rock removed to get to the vein, that stuff doesn't get milled.

 

[Aric]

I tried to explore that idea a while back here: http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/lost-dutchman-s-mine/412446-million-ounces-say-what.html

Now you have me reading another thread, lol.

 

[Aric]

Aric,

It was very common practice for both Spanish and later Mexican Miners to carry their tailings several miles from their mine sites. That made it much easier to conceal the actual mines since they couldn't work them year round. On the "Green" LDM Forum, I recall someone posted about finding a very deep crevice somewhere near Peters Mesa/Black Mountain and the crevice contained a whole lot of old tailings.

Mike
That's a great idea to hide the tailings. A lot of non productive work but needed if you want to hold on to good mine.
Aric

 

[chlsbrns]

Don't forget the host rock removed to get to the vein, that stuff doesn't get milled.

The host rock is where the gold is. It is host rock that contains gold and gets crushed.

Overburden.

 

[gollum]

Conceptualized,

When it comes to the LDM, almost everything has to be a hypothesis of one kind or another. The only thing written down by Waltz (and that is debatable) is the small drawing that came from the Petrasch Family. Most of what he did say was said to Rhiney Petrasch, who was mostly drunk and not paying an awful lot of attention to him. That was why his Father and Uncle blamed him for not paying attention to Waltz. Some of his family never spoke to Rhiney again, which likely led to him blaming himself and committing suicide on 5 February 1943.

The only other direct quotes from Waltz are via Dick Holmes through his manuscript. The biggest problem there is that Holmes denied writing it. So, how much of The Holmes Manuscript do you believe? There's no doubt that Dick Holmes was at Waltz' Bedside right before his death. That's how he got the candlebox ore from Waltz.

Everything else is guesswork and fourth or fifth person stories that nobody knows how much was truth and how much BS was added.

Because of that, most of anything concerning the LDM is going to be "I believe" "I think" "My best guess is that" etc etc etc. Until someone comes up with a chunk of ore that matches the SEM Tests of the Matchbox Ore, we can only make our best guesses.

Mike

 

[chlsbrns]

There is no proof about the ore or matchbox. Ore samples taken feet apart can and usually are different just like nuggets are different.

There are people who "think" the peralta stones lead to Montezuma's treasure. There certainly isn't any proof that the stones are linked to waltz or peralta.

 

[ConceptualizedNetherlandr]

The host rock is where the gold is. It is host rock that contains gold and gets crushed.

Overburden.

I understand that host can be used in the more specific application you point out. The application of the term host is broad enough to encompass the material (country rock) that hosts the vein (ore) which in turn hosts the mineral of interest. Lets not argue semantics on that. The point is, a lot of material is removed that is not sent off for refining, so there are at least 2 waste streams to deal with. The relative portions of which vary widely depending on all sorts of things. Pit mines vs shafts, mineral of interest, discrimination of target mineral(s) occurrence, - blah blah.

I doubt that very much effort was ever wasted on unnecessarily moving relatively large quantities of waste materials. If Peraltas really did run a big mining operation in that area they had processing areas which were not hidden, so why bother hiding the waste from that?

 

[ConceptualizedNetherlandr]

Conceptualized,

When it comes to the LDM, almost everything has to be a hypothesis of one kind or another. The only thing written down by Waltz (and that is debatable) is the small drawing that came from the Petrasch Family. Most of what he did say was said to Rhiney Petrasch, who was mostly drunk and not paying an awful lot of attention to him. That was why his Father and Uncle blamed him for not paying attention to Waltz. Some of his family never spoke to Rhiney again, which likely led to him blaming himself and committing suicide on 5 February 1943.

The only other direct quotes from Waltz are via Dick Holmes through his manuscript. The biggest problem there is that Holmes denied writing it. So, how much of The Holmes Manuscript do you believe? There's no doubt that Dick Holmes was at Waltz' Bedside right before his death. That's how he got the candlebox ore from Waltz.

Everything else is guesswork and fourth or fifth person stories that nobody knows how much was truth and how much BS was added.

Because of that, most of anything concerning the LDM is going to be "I believe" "I think" "My best guess is that" etc etc etc. Until someone comes up with a chunk of ore that matches the SEM Tests of the Matchbox Ore, we can only make our best guesses.

Mike

50 years later seems like a long incubation period. So which map was this? I have seen so many ...link us up. And what are the supposed 'reliable' quotes? I have heard so many ...

 

[gollum]

There is no proof about the ore or matchbox. Ore samples taken feet apart can and usually are different just like nuggets are different.

There are people who "think" the peralta stones lead to Montezuma's treasure. There certainly isn't any proof that the stones are linked to waltz or peralta.

Actually, yes there is proof.

AFFADAVIT (COPY)

STATE OF ARIZONA } ss.
County of Maricopa }

BEFORE ME, J Yenerich, a Notary Public in and for the said County, State of Arizona, on this day personally appeared Mr. George Holmes, to me well known, and who, after being duly sworn, deposes and says that the following testimony is true to the best of his knowledge.

My name is George Holmes, often known as “Brownie” Holmes, of Phoenix, Arizona.

My family were Arizona pioneers. My grandfather, R. J. Holmes, Sr., landed at the present site of Yuma in 1847. He was from Holmes County, Mississippi, and graduated from college at Ann Arbor, Michigan, as a geologist and mineralogist. He found gold at La Paz in 1853 nearly ten years before Pauline Weaver’s “discovery”.

My father was R. J. Holmes, Jr., often known as “Dick” Holmes, was born at Old Fort Whipple in 1865. He ranched in Bloody Basin, where Holmes Creek and Holmes Canyon were named for him. He was a civilian packer for the Army, having packed for Al Sieber, among others. He married my mother in 1889 in Tempe. I was born in Phoenix in 1892.

My father knew Jacob Waltz, in later years known as “The Dutchman”. Waltz’ friends were convinced he was operating a hidden gold mine in the Superstition Mountains.

Following heavy rains and floods in February, 1891, in which his adobe fell, Waltz made his home with Mrs. Julia Thomas, a colored woman, near the corner of Jackson and 2nd Avenue in Phoenix. She was married to Emil Thomas, but later married Al Schaffer. Both Mrs. Thomas and Schaffer were religious mystics.

Waltz died in October, 1891, at Mrs. Thomas’ home. On his deathbed he gave my father a miner’s candlebox full of gold ore, which he had under his bed. He also made a lengthy deathbed revelation regarding the history and location of the source of the gold, since called “The Lost Dutchman Mine:. The only people present at this time were Waltz, Dick Holmes, and Gideon Roberts. Mrs. Thomas, delayed in locating a doctor, and the others who claimed to have been present at Waltz’ death, did not enter the scene until later.

Keeping several pieces for specimens, my father sold the remainder of the ore to Goldman & Co., who were general merchants on East Washington Street, receiving about $4,800.00 in the transaction.

One piece of ore was taken to Joe Porterie, an assayer, whose office was on West Washington Street, in the next block west of Goldman’s. The assay showed $110,000.00 per ton in gold, the price of gold then being $20.67 per ounce.

Joe Porterie had been the assayer at the Vulture Mine at Wickenburg during its operation. The rumor that Waltz never had a mine, but high-graded this ore during his employment at the Vulture, was flatly refuted by Porterie, as the ore in Waltz’ possession was quite different from anything at the Vulture. A man of integrity, Porterie later became constable, deputy sheriff, and Deputy U. S. Marshall.

Of the unsold pieces, my father kept some as specimen ore, and also had jewelry made, consisting of a ring, cufflinks, a stickpin and a stud. These are still in my possession.

Of the ore sold to Goldman & Co., most was cleaned and the gold shipped. To my father’s knowledge, the only other specimen ore kept intact was obtained from Goldman’s by Jimmie Douglas. There were several “James Douglases” in the family, this son being the son of the President of the Phelps-Dodge Co., for whom the town of Douglas, Arizona, was named, and the father of Lew Douglas, the American Ambassador to England under President Truman.

Of the ore which Jimmie Douglas obtained, a gold matchbox was made up and presented to Gus H. Hirschfield. Hirschfield, of whom Leo and Charles Goodman were deeply fond, was a skilled mathematician, who at the time kept books for Goldman’s. A prominent Phoenix businessman, Hirschfield later owned the Palace Saloon, located in the same block as Goldman’s store.

I do not know by whom the presentation was made, nor the identity of the “J.L. & Co.” in the engraved inscription on the matchbox. I can offer a GUESS only.

There was, in San Francisco, a manufacturing jeweler known as John Levy & Co. who, during that period, made jewelry which was sold in the Arizona Territory. Both Levy & Hirschfield were Jewish, and Hirschfield was well known in the early West. This MIGHT POSSIBLY explain the inscription, it being understood this is NOT REPRESENTED AS BEING A FACT.

Hirschfield, a friend of both my father and myself, knew my father to have originally been given the ore by “The Dutchman” Jacob Waltz. Accordingly, he advised Mrs. Hirschfield that, upon his death, the match box was to be given to the Holmes family. My father preceded Mr. Hirschfield in death, and at the time of Mr. Hirschfield’s passing, the matchbox was given to me.

In turn, I have presented the matchbox to my friend, XXXXXXXXXXXXXX XXXXXXXXXXXXX of XXXXXXXXXX, Arizona. This affidavit serves as a statement of its historical authenticity, as well as evidence of ownership by XXXXXXXX.

As a means of identification, the matchbox weighs 48.4 grams, and measures 2.489-in. long, 1.317-in. wide and 0.525-in. thick. It is engraved, bearing the inscription “J. L. & Co. to G. H. H.” It is made with inlays of gold-bearing quartz, with free wire fold stringers varying from .06-in. to .13-in. in width, and which would assay an estimated quarter million dollars per ton.

George Holmes

George Holmes
SUBSCRIBED AND SWORN TO BEFORE ME THS 23rd day of April, A.D. 1969.

J. Yenerich
Notary Public
Maricopa County, Arizona
My commission expires My Commission Expires Aug 30, 1970

This affidavit is on display at the SMHS Museum in AJ. I think that should be enough for provenance of the matchbox for most people.

Mike

 

[chlsbrns]

Actually, yes there is proof.



This affidavit is on display at the SMHS Museum in AJ. I think that should be enough for provenance of the matchbox for most people.

Mike

So he swore to things that he didn't witness with his own eyes? I've been in court numerous times. Each time someone swore things truthful that were total bs! I proved their bs to be the bs that it was. A sworn affidavit isn't worth the paper it's written on.

 

[gollum]

So he swore to things that he didn't witness with his own eyes? I've been in court numerous times. Each time someone swore things truthful that were total bs! I proved their bs to be the bs that it was. A sworn affidavit isn't worth the paper it's written on.

Just like so many others, without an ounce of proof, anything that doesn't coincide with their pet theories is instantly BS. HAHAHAHAHA

PLEASE,

Prove any statement made in that affidavit is not true.

Also, Joseph Porterie validated most of the statements in that affidavit that had to do with him.

Anyway, your argument was that the match safe wasn't made of (or at least proven to be made of) Dutchman Ore. I just showed you proof of that fact. Brownie gave names, dates, and specific items and how each progressed in ownership over the years. He also gave very specific detailed measurements and description of the match safe.



Mike

 

[wrmickel1]

This weekend the GPAA has a gold show at the Mesa Convention Center. Woody and I will be helping at the Gpap booth. If your in the area stop over.

Won't be able to make it due to the 1800 mile difference from here to there, but I'd sure like to have one of your Dirty Harry Posters for my Treasure room wall. And you should have named the meeting room on the show the Rubber Room it would have been great!

Your biggest fan Wrmickel1

 

[ibjeepn]

To some, their word is their integrity. To base George Holmes credibility on your own experiences,carries no weight with anyone but yourself. What did this man have to gain by lying ?

 

[chlsbrns]

Just like so many others, without an ounce of proof, anything that doesn't coincide with their pet theories is instantly BS. HAHAHAHAHA

PLEASE,

Prove any statement made in that affidavit is not true.

Also, Joseph Porterie validated most of the statements in that affidavit that had to do with him.

Anyway, your argument was that the match safe wasn't made of (or at least proven to be made of) Dutchman Ore. I just showed you proof of that fact. Brownie gave names, dates, and specific items and how each progressed in ownership over the years. He also gave very specific detailed measurements and description of the match safe.

View attachment 1124263

Mike

A person can only swear to things that they witness. Holmes was not alive so he can not swear to:

My father knew Jacob Waltz, in later years known as “The Dutchman”. Waltz’ friends were convinced he was operating a hidden gold mine in the Superstition Mountains.

What does he gain? Well if someone believec his bs then the ore would have added value.
Im going to go to a notary and swear that a deceased member of my family gave me a nugget that their father gave to them. A nugget obtained by waltz.

 

[johnmark29020]

I think you just answered a question that has had me scratching my head for a long time. Let me ask you this question. Do you think any other Mexican miners ever returned to the mine after Waltz passed away ? Just Mexicans only.

I was told by a Mexican when I first started my search. The mines were being guarded by Mexican's. So based on what he told me. I would say yes.

 

[johnmark29020]

There is no proof about the ore or matchbox. Ore samples taken feet apart can and usually are different just like nuggets are different.

There are people who "think" the peralta stones lead to Montezuma's treasure. There certainly isn't any proof that the stones are linked to waltz or peralta.

You are right. I stood in a area that matches the heart stone. Then later when reviewing the paper maps. I noticed it was the same area. However the two set of maps focused on different landmarks.
So I believe the peralta-gonzalez maps have nothing to do with the stone maps.
However they are in the same general area. Maby that area has been know to be heavy mineralized for years.

 

[wrmickel1]

I was told by a Mexican when I first started my search. The mines were being guarded by Mexican's. So based on what he told me. I would say yes.

Don't forget the aliens and Apachee there Ali baba, really

Wrmickel1

 

[chlsbrns]

Don't forget the aliens and Apachee there Ali baba, really

Wrmickel1

I knew someone would get me started on the hopi indians and lizard people!