New twist on the LDM.

[cactusjumper]

I can only speak for changes in the last 48 years, but the only real differences I can see, are: More people, more signs, more trash and more maintained trails. Everything else is as I remember it on my first trip in. Don't believe vegetation or animal population has been noticeably effected.

There are others who go back much farther than I, who could probably shed more light on the subject.

Joe

 

Amazon Forum Fav 👍

Family Maps of Hinds County, Mississippi, Deluxe Edition - Grab it through Amazon!

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

HI peeps: I found this in my files, I can't find the 2 last pages, but will continue to look. I will also see if I can find the original sender for clarfication etc.

Just another can of worms for you to play wth , especially BB and his Aztec/Mayan data.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

hi peeps a follow up on the last post.

sniff sorry Djui, I thought that I was going to give you something nice.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[cactusjumper]

Anyone ever wonder how many silver mines, discovered in the Superstitions, were covered over and hidden?

Just curious......

Joe

 

[Leones Corazon]

Randy...check your mail...need to plan a few things with you...

As far as the silver mines...i still stand by my comment of forgetting about the dutchman....and follow the markers the historians and archy's don't believe in...i'm sure one would be surprised at what can be found.

DW

 

[somehiker]

This, to my understanding, is what happened to the Superstitions. It was the grazing cattle that ate away the grass, and the ranchers who incorrectly maintained the land, killing the vegetation and grass/etc. This lack of vegetation in the soil created a weaker soil that eroded away much more easily, cutting into the canyons, etc.

Of course, we only have word of mouth, unless someone knows of some tintypes that were taken in the 1800's...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Randy:
--As further explanation for my belief that there has been little change in the topography or long established vegetative patterns of the Superstition Wilderness area,I offer the following:

(1)-Archaeological study has given us a history of human occupation of the area,the animals that they hunted and the plants that they gathered for food,medicine,and ceremonial use.Little evidence exists,other than footwear and some basketry,of extensive use of long grasses as a weaving or construction or bedding material.Reed type materials seem to have been much more common.Even during the Hohokam and Salado occupation,there appears to been little use of timber,other than for vigas,lattilas and lintles or columns.The balance of habitable construction was of stone and clay or caliche mortar.The absence of grass filler in joining materials or as roofing or chinking, also suggests an absence or at least a shortage of suitable material for such purposes.

(2)-More recent documented history gives a perspective of life in the region,it's peoples and their habitat and their customs,diet and dress.The tribes of Pimeria and Apacheria led vastly different lifestyles,the first as farmers with large complexes of wood and earthen homes in the lower Phoenix basin,who raised crops of pumpkin,squashes,gourds peppers and corn (imports from mezoamerica),as well as gathering seeds,nuts and wild game from the area.When the Spanish arrived,they introduced horses and cattle as well as wheat to the tribes and by all accounts there was ample pasture along the banks of the Salt and Gila rivers thanks to the annual flooding of these two rivers.
-The second group,primarily Yavapai "apache" (since we are discussing the Superstitions)arrived in the region shortly before the Spanish arrived in the new world it is believed.As a latecoming group to the region,arriving in a land well populated with a rich variety of established tribal societies,and not particularly welcomed,they made their home in the more rugged and less habitable areas from where they could pursue their own lifestyle as semi-nomadic raiders,hunter-gatherers and minor farmers,insofar as they adopted the practice of planting corn,pumpkin and squash etc.,for later retrieval.Unlike the residents of the more fertile lowlands or the Colorado Plateau,however,the residents of the Superstitions did not keep their usually stolen cattle,horses,or mules for very long.Apparently they mostly traded them,or ate them before they died of thirst or starvation.At any rate the Superstitions Yavapai did not adapt to a Horse-people lifestyle as did their cousins to the east and south to some extent.The fact that their homes as well were smaller and made mostly of brush thatching suggests an already scarce supply of larger wood in the these mountains.Historical accounts of counter raids to recover stolen stock also seem to indicate that there were few places to hide large animals,and so recovery missions were frequently successful.

(3)-Few could cover more ground and leave less sign than the Apache and the greatest reason for this is the fact that he inhabited an extremely rugged and rocky fortress where only other native trackers could follow even a careless trail.Accounts rarely,if ever,disagree on this.I doubt that this would have been the case if the Cavaness account had applied in general to these mountains.IMHO---SH.

 

[somehiker]

I had mentioned in an earlier post that much of the accounts that were attributed to Matt Cavaness seem to match almost word for word accounts given by ranchers of the Colorado Plateau.The area around Winslow had seen much more intensive cattle ranching than had the Superstitions and had suffered greatly from overgrazing.I suspect that at some time in the past these accounts were either mistakenly attributed to him or added by him to his letters and speeches for the shock value.Witness the current global warming debate for example,where so many have added their opinion,using others' assumptions.
best---SH.

 

[the blindbowman]

i am holding back so much evidence i could fill a book with it ,lol , i wont comet at this piont in time . i agree with much of what was stated by SH ...

 

[cactusjumper]

SH,

I I were going to point the finger of blame for the change in vegetation in the Superstitions, I doubt you would need to look much farther than the weather cycles in Arizona. Long periods of drought are a common occurrence in the State. When Cavaness wrote his manuscript, was the state in a wet or dry cycle? If so, for how long?

Barry Storm's pictures of the Superstitions were taken prior to 1940. There does not seem to be much difference in that time span.

Long periods of drought have been a major factor in farming and ranching in this State for a long time. Thus you have the ancient canal systems and the Salt River Dam project. Man has always fought the droughts. No such efforts were made for most of the interior of the Superstitions.

Very nice posts. Shows a bit of research time.

Joe

 

[somehiker]

Thanks for the kind words.It is always nice when one's efforts are appreciated,even when disagreement occurs.

As someone with a lifelong interest in history,geology and archaeology etc.,I have read probably hundreds of reports and articles published by noted and not-so-noted authors of these subjects.Many reports since the early seventies,I have noted,seem to go to unusual lengths to reinforce the lack of any significant finds of precious metals or gemstones.Nowhere,does this denial of even the possibility of Spanish,or earlier mining,or even the likelihood of storage/cache sites more frequently occur than in the southwestern archeological literature.
I have little doubt that politics play no small part in what discoveries are revealed.Government policies and law makes all finds of value effectively the property of the state and subject to state control.ie:storage,study,and disbursement.Maverick researchers who disagree with existing theory and unaccredited hobbyists usually suffer from both a lack of funds and laws designed to prevent even ethical research or fieldwork (even if you own the land).If you should be so lucky as to discover a site (especially a "lost" gold or silver mine) and it becomes public,chances are that it will be the last time that you will ever be allowed to set foot there.Any digging or removal of artifacts could earn you a nightmare vacation in one of Sheriff Joe's holiday resorts.Even though these regulations are necessary to prevent looting and destruction by pothunters,for example,they also discourage other unofficial explorers from reporting any finds.
Political desire to maintain the status quo plays no small part in both the direction of research effort and the publication or non-publication of findings.Imagine the modern day gold rush frenzy that would occur if historians were to proclaim a discovery of pre-columbian or pre-Hildago gold mining in the Superstitions.I,for one do not wish to see a return to the earliest days of the LDM search.The whizz of passing small arms fire makes me nervous and I'd rather return to my hotel with my head attached to my body.The ongoing and very politicized controversy regarding native land claims as well as the minefield associated with the "AZTLAN" claim has the potential to bring southwestern archaeology to a grinding halt.I personally believe censorship and removal of many past publications from public access has been encouraged for some time already,due to these considerations.
There are,of course,many other factors which may influence the reporting of controversial artifacts.Many brand name scientists have based their entire careers on the quest to prove a pet theory,or to confirm an admired colleague's theory.Having written many past papers and having given many lectures supporting these same beliefs,how eager would YOU be,to admit that everything that you presented in the past was wrong?There have been many past legal proceedings against men of science,who strayed and falsified findings in order to achieve acclaim and funding,or who were caught in the blatant act of selling artifacts.In most cases we will now never know where the objects were originally discovered.Could some of these artifacts have been found in places where they didn't belong,according to accepted scientific beliefs?

Sorry all,but I'm on a bit of a writing binge here
-- so bear with me

Gold in the Superstitions?

Politics,Power,Greed,Scientific Pride,Environmental Protectionism are big words that tell us why there is No Gold in the Superstitions.
*** Reason is the one word that says that there Is ***
---Forget for a moment that you have ever heard of the Perralta's or the massacre.You have never heard of Doc Thorne or anything about the two soldiers.Forget about Jakob Waltz and his Lost Dutchman Mine and all those who followed his trail or that of the stones.
---Done?---Good--let us begin

Reason 1
The GOLD mines of Goldfield.Located near the rim of cauldera #1,the original town in the 1890's had a population of from three to five thousand miners,merchants and whores who supplied about 50 mines with labour,goods and entertainment, and there are four more caulderas across the Superstitions.
Reason 2
The geological history of the Superstitions.
Gold is found everywhere on the face of the earth,but the greatest concentrations are found or have been sourced in areas of long-term volcanic activity.The list of minerals associated with gold is long and they all can be found here.From about 470 million years ago until about 340 million years ago the area was either under or above water.
"http://jan.ucc.nau.edu/~rcb7/paleogeogwus.html"
Base rock is composed of sedimentary,igneous and metamorphic types.All types,according to my research,associated with volcanic activity and more importantly,gold,are present.Both mesothermic and hydrothermic quartzes are present in differing colours,clarities and densities.ie:jasper,amethyst,rose and snow.
Prior to and concurrent with the eruptions of the volcanic caulderas these mountains were formed and eroded and blown to pieces and covered with volcanic debris time and time again.Each apocaliptic
event presented a new opportunity for gold formation.All that was needed was heat,pressure and water to complete the recipe.

End of part 1---it's getting late,so I'll finish it tomorrow

Gnite--SH.

 

[the blindbowman]

SH .. very well stated . i have been looking at rock samples before i could walk . my grandfather was a miner at st joe's 3 miles down , he would bring rock samples home and show my father who was a rockhound for over 50 years , doing everything from old mines to rock cuts and cutting gemstones ...


in one area of the mt range i found a quartz vein that is nothing like any of the other quartz veins in a 3 mile area . all the others in fact run northwest to southeast . this quartz vein runs southwest to northeast it runs about 80 yards and about 10 " wide and it runs down the slop and apears on the other side of a wash and widens as it climbs up the other slop of the other mt . i can guess it runs about 400 ft long and about 27 inches at it widest... the wash looks to have removed part of the vein threw many thousands of years ... this stated . the quartz it allmost pure quarts in crystal like a geode...i check the area twice and there is no other quartz anywhere in this area like this sample .. the sample has what looks like a warm hole pattern in the quartz it self. i have only seen this in volcanic quartz crystals....

my question to you is ... i beleive this is the same quartz vein the dutchman was working . is there any way to prove it is ?


the vein is about 10" wide and i flash my camera flash down the opening between the crystals on ether side i did not see any bottom to this vein i could guess it is more than 80-100 ft deep or more ...there are thousands of quartz crystals the sizes of silver Quarters to the larger size of a silver dollars or a gulf ball size ..... here is one last question for you ...


if this quartz vein is almost pure quartz crystals at its lowest pionts of elevation ,at the time of volcanic action could the quartz foam and rise to the highest elevation of the vein . thus makeing the quartz at the highest piont look like the white foam quartz of the dutchmans sample vs the pure quartz at the lower part of the same quartz vein ...


i can show you pictures of the quartz vein if it would help

like i stated this vein dose not run the same directions as all the other veins in the area , and the quartz crystall are very pure , nothing like the others in the area ...IMHO this vein was there before the mts were cut out by the waters ....i droped a crystal in the crack of the vein and i did not hear it hit bottom ! this is the deepest crystal quartz vein i have ever seen with my own eyes in my life time ...

the vein dose not run side ways across a rock face as most horizonal vein . it is a rare vertical vein ..

i knew before i asked the question . i have never seen a vertical vein in my life time other than this one ...my granfather had seen a chimney once about a mile under ground , it was a volcanic blowout that was about 4 ft around and a little over a hunderd ft high the sides were coverd in crystals just like this vein is ...it was the only one he had ever seen in 40 years of mining as a heavy equiment operator...he had told my dad about it a long time ago ..i have never heard of any others in my life time ...my father never got the chance to see one ...flourite crystal pocket clusters is as close as he got ...

 

[cactusjumper]

SH,

"Thanks for the kind words.It is always nice when one's efforts are appreciated,even when disagreement occurs."

Don't disagree with a word you have said.

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

Mr. Collins,

Can we assume that historians are excising the period of 1790 - 1820 from the records of Arizona? A few places that come to mind would be.....Tubac, Patagonia, Arivaca, Ajo and Patagonia. Imagine I left out a few places of historical significance.

Joe Ribaudo

 

[somehiker]

The Blindbowman wrote;

"my question to you is ... i beleive this is the same quartz vein the dutchman was working . is there any way to prove it is ?"

Mr.Blindbowman:

You pose a very difficult question to answer,seriously.After reading your postings on your "testing" thread today,I doubt that anything that I could say would add to your understanding or change your beliefs.I suppose that the only way to prove that it is,in fact the same vein that the dutchman's ore came from ,will be to deliver the LDM itself,as you have promised to.
Reguards--SH.

 

[cactusjumper]

Bowman,

Anyone who has spent much time in the area, can show you a number of mines that go straight down into the earth, following a vein.

"in 1979 i was in flight from orlando fla to huston texas and than to SD calf. after leaveing huston the air plane when into a small thunder storm and when we came out we were to close to weavers needle and as we truned away i saw a bright golden reflection shinning in the window of the plane . after just passing QM training A school for navagationial train at orlando fla . i knew how to look threw the small spaces between my fingers to see when looking into bright light , i saw a funnle shape on the top of one of the mts was makeing the bright reflection . i noted its locateion from weavers needle ." (Emphasis in bold by Joe)

Since you could see that the bright reflection was coming from a "funnle shape", could you tell us how large your funnel is? Since you say you were "close to weavers needle", we must assume that your mountain top was close to the Needle. Seeing a "funnle shape" and recognizing it for that, from any distance, would require a very large hole.

Joe

 

[the blindbowman]

Bowman,

Anyone who has spent much time in the area, can show you a number of mines that go straight down into the earth, following a vein.

"in 1979 i was in flight from orlando fla to huston texas and than to SD calf. after leaveing huston the air plane when into a small thunder storm and when we came out we were to close to weavers needle and as we truned away i saw a bright golden reflection shinning in the window of the plane . after just passing QM training A school for navagationial train at orlando fla . i knew how to look threw the small spaces between my fingers to see when looking into bright light , i saw a funnle shape on the top of one of the mts was makeing the bright reflection . i noted its locateion from weavers needle ." (Emphasis in bold by Joe)

Since you could see that the bright reflection was coming from a "funnle shape", could you tell us how large your funnel is? Since you say you were "close to weavers needle", we must assume that your mountain top was close to the Needle. Seeing a "funnle shape" and recognizing it for that, from any distance, would require a very large hole.

Joe

[/quote

lol

CJ , you just want clues . it dose nt matter to you what the missing 8th peralta stone was or what it looks like ...i know its missing because i already found it ...you can try and try ...but the 8th stone has nothing to do with the undisputable evidence i was talking about ...

i am trying to have a documentary tape made of expedition 3 . but there is a lot of legal papers and data to cut threw frist ...

you have not seen more than 5% of what i am working on if you put all my post and replies all togather ....

 

[cactusjumper]

Bowman,

"you just want clues"

And I thought I was being soooo clever! Looks like I won't be putting anything over on the Bowman.....anytime soon.

Good luck, anyway.

Joe

 

[the blindbowman]

what makes you think i havent been missleeding you the whole time..... lol

 

[the blindbowman]

dose'nt that just fry your fish!

 

[cactusjumper]

Bowman,

Does this mean you still have your farm? Is it a catfish farm?

Joe