Newbie; needing help identifying

[Nickcaragwa]

Hey all. I'm brand new here and am trying to get some help identifying a cob coin that I purchased during a recent trip to Central America from a "reliable" antique dealer. I know its an 8 reale coin but beyond that I'm not sure of the date/origin. Also not sure what the stamp in the center of the cross means/signifies.

I was told the coin was found in dirt/soil but since I wasn't there I cannot confirm that fact.

I will attach photos of both sides. Any comments or information would be appreciated.

Thanks in advance.

-Nick

 

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[MORE AND BEYOND OSSY]

Hi Nick, and welcome to Treasurenet, that's a very shinny cob you have there, has it been cleaned it looks like it was
just minted, It has a counter stamp on it, hard to make out the lions and castles?
If your out there Divewrecks, what do you think?
Cheers, Ossy

 

[Nickcaragwa]

Ossy,

It was a little tarnished when I picked it up. Only cleaning I did was with a damp towel which seemed to buff it up a bit, otherwise that's how I purchased it. I'm also not sure if the seller did any cleaning when he acquired it or if he received it in this condition.

Thanks for the comments and help.

-Nick

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Sorry to say it doesnt look authentic. Its supposed to be a Pillars and Waves type cob but I see no waves.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

What you have appears to be a replica made for fraudulent purposes. Actually its very ugly.Did you buy this in Nicaragua? Im going to save this in my database. It may be silver however. I dont know what the stamp in the center signifies. It should look something like this.

 

[Nickcaragwa]

Thanks for the comments bigcypresshunter.

I purchased the coin in Honduras and despite your opinion I really like it...I happen to think the bold cross is attractive and am considering mounting it to wear on a chain....but to each their own I guess.

Through some research I have done, since I posted here originally, I have been told that the stamp in the center is come sort of counter-mark used in Central America (some places said Guatemala) to revalue silver coins around the mid 1800's. I have confirmed that the coin is silver and it's weight is correct.

What is it that makes you believe that it is "a replica made for fraudulent purposes"? The waves that are "missing" seem to be chopped off or out of range when struck (the coin is thick and appears to be cut from a square-shaped bar??). I am not sure what the date reads but I am guessing 1751 because of the "q" assayer mark....I have searched for coins from this mint and this era and have seen quite a few examples with the waves "clipped" off and odd/square shapes as well. See lots 772-777 http://www.sedwickcoins.com/treasureauction5/silvercobsboli.htm

-Nick

 

[Nickcaragwa]

I also learned that I had the side of the coin with the cross the wrong side up. Guess this is how it is supposed to look.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

I apologize for being so blunt but there is no easy way to tell someone that they may have purchased a silver counterfeit. But Im sure the truth is what you are after. How do I come to this opinion? Because I have looked a a lot of them here at TN and they have become kinda easy for me to spot. I actually collect pictures of counterfeits and replicas. I will have to search my files to see if this is known or one of a kind. I will try to explain when I have more time. Your cob has many issues IMO. It appears to be silver but... the waves are missing, the cross is crooked, the lions and castles are almost non existant, the two pillars are different, the lettering is not right,...I could go on and on.Compare the lettering on yours with an authentic cob. Your lettering is crooked and deformed. Being square is not an issue. I hope Im wrong.

Yes I said "it appears to be a replica made for fraudulant purposes". I dont know what other reason this would have been made. As far as ugly, I meant that it is a bad counterfeit, IMO unfortunately. The coin actually looks pretty but it has many issues.

How much does it weigh? Can I see a pic of the edges?


Btw welcome to TN. I hope Im wrong. Maybe you could send a pic to Sedwicks.

 

[Nickcaragwa]

Bigcypresshunter,

Thank you for your response once again, and please do not apologize for being blunt. I joined these forums to get advice and feedback that I could not find elsewhere and I appreciate your help. If the coin I bought is a replica I am happy to accept that fact.

One piece of information that I should disclose is that since my first post on this forum I have purchased an additional 420+ silver coins from this particular source.

Before you tell me I am CRAZY most of the coins are dated 1800-1910 and are minted silver reales, pesos, or the like from Central America (Guatemala, El Salvador, Honduras...mostly) and are all easily identifiable to anyone who has a coin reference book at hand. Each one appears different and I have no reason to think that these would be replicas (although I am open to opinion).

I did purchase about 20 "silver cobs" with this lot of coins that are close to the condition of the coin that I posted photos of. These cobs are 1-8 reales coins, and supposedly they are all discovered from sites "in soil" or "in fresh water". They all appear to be different shapes, sizes, dates, etc. Considering the source I purchased these from I find it hard to believe that this particular person has/had the means to counterfeit this number of coins in actual silver and make each one appear different (this person is not even able to afford a car and is 3 hours drive from the nearest town). Although I am not stupid and I understand that he may have purchased them from someone else; but once again if you saw the town he lived in you would question where/how to get something like this That is why I am interested to hear more from you on the topic of "one-of-a-kind replicas" and if you have seen this coin appear in your database before.

If you wouldn't mind sharing your email address with me I will send you additional photos of the cob coins I bought from him and you can compare them to those in your database/experience and let me know your opinion.

I am in PA, USA for a wedding this weekend but will be home on Tuesday and can send you any additional photos of the coins as well as the exact weight on a scale and any other information that would be helpful. Also please let me know what do you mean by pics of the edges? Do you want them straight on from the side or at a downward angle? Let me know what you are looking for and and I'll send them.

If you think sending a photo/photos of the coin to Sedwicks would be helpful I would be more than happy to do so, and if you have any advice or experience on the process your input would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks again,

Nick

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Im late for work, so Ill get back to you. I need to empty my emails. Im not an expert. I hope someone else will give their opinion. Every cob is different but this one jumps out at me. I will try to point out some areas of concern. With fraudulant castings, the edges will have a seam. Im in no way suggesting the others purchased are not authentic. This one looks bad to me.It has many issues. It looks like a bad homeade counterfeit.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Could you post a pic of one other cob from this dealer? My e-mail is listed here at TN.

I hope this is the only bad piece in the bunch.

 

[Mackaydon]

Nick:

I'm not so concerned about the coin. Except for 'presentation pieces' these cobs were not produced to be pristine examples of one country's numismatic design abilities. Instead, they were minted to pay debts. Actually, some treasure (cob) laden vessels destined to the Spanish king (for his 'fifth') got only as far as a Spanish port where they were offloaded to vessels of a creditor country--to be melted down and reformed into the currency of that country.

For numerous reasons, these coins were frequently 'botched' in the minting process and, of course, no two were similar due to the one piece at a time and trimming processes.

I see the 'waves' and I see the countermark. It appears to be the countermark of Guatemala--called the 'sun over mountains' countermark. This mark was used, for example in the period 1838 and 1839. This 8-reales coin shows a date I'll guess as 1697.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

I circled some areas of concern. The waves on this cob are level. (straight across). Compare it to the CURVED waves of the one I pictured.. Look at the date above it. Look at the tops of the pillars. Its so worn its hard to tell but look at the lions and castles on the other side. This is not a replica, it appears to me to be a poorly made silver counterfeit. ...and I would not have bought it.

 

[Mackaydon]

I'll stand by what I said above. Cob 'waves' can be exaggerated 'wavy' or not. Referenced below is a similar cob where the 'waves' are almost flat--as in the subject coin. Also note that coin is 'botched' in many other areas, but still an authentic coin. The subject coin may still not be authentic, but the waves--such as they are-- don't bother me.
http://www.coinarchives.com/w/lotviewer.php?LotID=639790&AucID=468&Lot=2016

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Nick:

I'm not so concerned about the coin. Except for 'presentation pieces' these cobs were not produced to be pristine examples of one country's numismatic design abilities. Instead, they were minted to pay debts. Actually, some treasure (cob) laden vessels destined to the Spanish king (for his 'fifth') got only as far as a Spanish port where they were offloaded to vessels of a creditor country--to be melted down and reformed into the currency of that country.

For numerous reasons, these coins were frequently 'botched' in the minting process and, of course, no two were similar due to the one piece at a time and trimming processes.

I see the 'waves' and I see the countermark. It appears to be the countermark of Guatemala--called the 'sun over mountains' countermark. This mark was used, for example in the period 1838 and 1839. This 8-reales coin shows a date I'll guess as 1697.

Are you saying this cob could have been melted down and remade in 1838-39?

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

I'll stand by what I said above. Cob 'waves' can be exaggerated 'wavy' or not. Referenced below is a similar cob where the 'waves' are almost flat--as in the subject coin. Also note the coin is 'botched' in many other areas, but still an authentic coin. The subject coin may still not be authentic, but the waves--such as they are-- don't bother me.
http://www.coinarchives.com/w/lotviewer.php?LotID=639790&AucID=468&Lot=2016

I hope your right. I see what you mean about the waves, but it has too many other issues IMO. I would like to see another cob from the same batch..

 

[Mackaydon]

BCH:
I wrote that some coins (and entire shipments of coins) were melted down soon after they reached Spain since they were turned over to creditor nations to pay off the Spanish debt at the time. Once turned over, portions were melted down and converted to the currency of that creditor nation; long before the 1800s.
Don..

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Maybe I shouldnt have posted my opinion. Looking back on the title, I see now he was only asking for help with identification, not authentication. I think I broke TN rules. But I stand by my opinion.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Here is an example of a silver counterfeit from the Central America/Mexico area. The deformed lettering is a tip off that I look for.

 

[divewrecks]

I looked with an open mind through my main reference sources, but couldn't find a match. I don't think it is authentic, but I won't call it fraudulent since I don't know what the maker intended or how the coin was represented in previous transactions. I agree with Don that the flat waves are not a dead giveaway. Flat waves seem to have been a more prevalent charecteristic of Lima strikes though. I don't know why the piece would have a reproduced counterstamp if it wasn't modern made. Could it be possible that the piece was a period forgery?

Stan