Not looking good in the Bahamas

[bikerlawyer]

Treasure salvage licence hopes are 'wrecked' | The Tribune

 

[old man]

Treasure salvage licence hopes are 'wrecked' | The Tribune

Thanks for posting the article. Dr. Tinker's view on salvage in the Bahamas. Reminds me of some old sayings.
The Bahamas will receive 100% percent of Nothing, because they will not allow salvage. The Pirates will do what they have done for hundreds of years. They will recover what they can and the Bahamas will end up with nothing. " Doesn't make one bit of sense to me."

As Mel Fisher said to me when I was younger. " It's better to get a small percentage of something, then 100% of Nothing"
I guess the Bahamas does not see it that way.

 

[aquanut]

Just another arrogant government archaeologist stopping progress.

 

[Fletch88]

From what I saw in Nassau it's all just a big Chinese owned tourist trap. They want big resort $$$ anyway I guess. I went scuba diving in Abbaco back in the 80's and remembered how natural and beautiful it was. Don't ever care to go back to Nassau again as I hate touristy destinations.

 

[ropesfish]

While waiting on the Bahamas to do anything that could be construed as helpful to "foreigners", I can suggest a few good ways to pass the time:
1. Listen to Bahamian radio talk shows where you will be able to detect a distinct animosity towards foreign investment and investors. The casinos and resorts that have been built have managed to create a lot of ill will that is reported in the Bahamian press.
<Link: < http://guardiantalkradio.com/>
2. Read Bahamian newspaper sites -same thing- a lot of the folks in the Bahamas want economic development for Bahamians but have no model for this development that doesn't rely on foreign investment - which they decry. Catch 22 with no resolution in sight.
<Links to newspaper sites: The Tribune The Freeport News Bahamaspress.com
3. While you are reading and listening pay close attention to the number of Bahamian voices who advocate socialistic policies -there are many and as always they appeal to the politically and economically naive. There are many otherwise wonderful people that suffer from politically and economically naivete and few of them recognize their flawed logic.
4. Take note that there are not (to my knowledge) any Bahamian citizens that have been issued salvage permits either. If having a Bahamian involved as a principal was a path to a permit, I feel sure that someone would have taken a Bahamian citizen as a partner/investor/figurehead.
5. Probably the most enjoyable part of the exercise: Get a large bottle of Mount Gay Rum, a glass and a copy of Jimmy Buffett's album "Changes in Latitudes, Changes in Attitudes" and listen to "Banana Republics" whilst drinking the rum
(or just click this link:
)

Pay special attention to these lines:
First you learn the native custom
Soon a word of Spanish or two
You know that you cannot trust them
Cause they know they can't trust you

Expatriated American feelin' so all alone
Telling themselves the same lies
That they told themselves back home

Down to the Banana Republics
Things aren't as warm as they seem
None of the natives are buying
Any second hand American dreams

 

[ivan salis]

the Bahamians like most small mainly minority poorer countries want the "bulk" of money made from any project to go to the "locals" (ie them ) without them putting up any "front money" (they can't because frankly they don't have it) --so they want others to invest and yield little to nothing out of it and them to "benefit" from others "investments" --( of course we know "big business simply does not work that way --the "deep pocket" investor get the"bulk" of the money and the "locals' get low wage jobs working as "servants in the resorts and casino's. and the local politicans get a little "kick back" to rubber stamp everything.) and that's life 101
so sign the contract already .

 

[teklord]

Good post Ropefish, I tend to agree with you. Even the offer to move their headquarters was not incentive enough to get Odyssey a permit. Properly done the salvage industry could revitalize the country. They simply do not understand the degree to which they are shooting themselves in the foot. Your note #4 is food for thought.

Tek

 

[Jolly Mon]

This much is clear: the "powers that be" in the the Bahamas don't want licensed, private salvors at certain wreck sites.

Perhaps this is politically or ideologically motivated. Perhaps the motivation is of a more base nature.

I can't get over the story of the arrest of Mr. Gardiner/ Gardner and the illegal salvage operation supposedly uncovered back in 2011.

Apparently no charges were ever filed by the Bahamian authorities.

The story just ended, vanished in a puff of smoke.

How could this be ?

Perhaps they could not prosecute for lack of evidence?

Surely there would have been a statement of some kind by the police or magistrate's office had this been the case...yet...nothing...nada.

Either the original story was gravely in error or there is something rotten in Nassau.

I am not normally a conspiricy theorist, but what's more desirable?

25% of legitimate recoveries going into Bahamian governement coffers?

Or some other percentage of illegal recoveries going directly into private pockets?

Legitimate, licensed salvors in operation would uncover clandestine operations at known wreck site/sites in short order, especially in certain "high profile", yet remote areas...

 

[Patrimony]

This link to the article is not broken: http://www.tribune242.com/news/2014/apr/09/treasure-salvage-licence-hopes-are-wrecked/

From a source close to the Vice-Prime Minister of The Bahamas, who sees him regularly on a social basis, regarding this article and the statements of Dr. Tinker: "Tinker is just appeasing his political bosses and attempting to divert attention away from their failings on this matter and Tinker himself has nothing to do with these unexplained delays in permit issuing. What he says is mindless dribble and devoid of all the facts relating to the reality of the December 2011 amendments to the Antiquities Acts with its new provisions and sureties which do in fact provide remedies and procedures to address the past abuses of twenty years ago but which Mr. Tinker now holds up as a justification for what he now also incorrectly terms " a continuum of the moratorium from years past." However, in the course of dribbling on and on and being intellectually dishonest in the process, he fails to mention that The Government of the Bahamas actually amended it own laws in December 2011 and did so for the very purpose of establishing safeguards and remedies to prevent the very types of abuse now currently being tossed about by Tinker which had occurred 20 years earlier during a period characterized by a lack of regulation but which the 2011 amendments have completely rectified. Subsequent to these new law improvements in late 2011, the Bahamian Government early 2012 then publically solicited applicants interested in shipwreck recovery to apply under their new laws using the new stringent applications all now subject to a rigorous new criteria such as passing criminal back ground checks, posting $100,000 bonds, having an archaeologist and Bahamian police present, owning the right vessels and equipment and being able to meet all manner of levels of financial responsibility and competence. The applicants were in turn reviewed and qualified under these new more stringent criteria and policies by a committee at the AMMC whereby the qualifying applications would be sent to the Prime Minister for final approval and permit signatures. The Bahamian Government further collected thousands of dollars from applicants who responded in good faith while, in so doing, also causing said private individuals, both Bahamian citizens and others from all over the world, to spend months and years re scheduling their time and spending even more hundreds of thousands of dollars getting ready for what they had been promised would be a ninety day process and all that because they believed what had been represented to them. The sorry truth is however that the first tranche of AMMC approved applications still sit after two years unviewed in the Prime Ministers' office for the simple reason that it is very low priority for the Prime Minister for the further simple unspoken reason is that he really doesn’t want any more foreigners here, especially if they are white, period and thus those searching for higher reasons or understandings behind the delays are only taxing their minds."

 

[old man]

This much is clear: the "powers that be" in the the Bahamas don't want licensed, private salvors at certain wreck sites.

Perhaps this is politically or ideologically motivated. Perhaps the motivation is of a more base nature.

I can't get over the story of the arrest of Mr. Gardiner/ Gardner and the illegal salvage operation supposedly uncovered back in 2011.

Apparently no charges were ever filed by the Bahamian authorities.

The story just ended, vanished in a puff of smoke.

How could this be ?

Perhaps they could not prosecute for lack of evidence?

Surely there would have been a statement of some kind by the police or magistrate's office had this been the case...yet...nothing...nada.

Either the original story was gravely in error or there is something rotten in Nassau.

I am not normally a conspiricy theorist, but what's more desirable?

25% of legitimate recoveries going into Bahamian governement coffers?

Or some other percentage of illegal recoveries going directly into private pockets?


Legitimate, licensed salvors in operation would uncover clandestine operations at known wreck site/sites in short order, especially in certain "high profile", yet remote areas...

Jolly Man, There is one big problem with your post. It makes sense. I've yet to see more then 2 politicians that could agree on anything. So, I don't think we are going to see any salvage permits in the Bahamas for a long time.

 

[bikerlawyer]

I was told my link was broken and it can be found here:

Treasure salvage licence hopes are 'wrecked' | The Tribune

 

[LM]

Didn't a relevant Bahamian official post a few times here at T'et?
The guy who was on the Nat Geo special on the blue hole?

 

[aquanut]

Didn't a relevant Bahamian official post a few times here at T'et?
The guy who was on the Nat Geo special on the blue hole?

Are you talking about Bahama Mike?

 

[ScubaFinder]

Jolly Mon - I spoke with Allen Gardener not too long ago and I asked him how the case was going. He laughed and said the whole thing was a total fabrication without any base in reality. He does own a home in the Bahamas, but was not arrested and has not been working on any shipwrecks there. His boat was not seized and he has never had any trouble with Bahamian authorities. This probably explains why we never heard another word about it and also why no record of it exists online outside the one article. I don't know any details other than what Allen told me, but he was adamant that nothing of the sort ever happened.

 

[Jolly Mon]

Jolly Mon - I spoke with Allen Gardener not too long ago and I asked him how the case was going. He laughed and said the whole thing was a total fabrication without any base in reality. He does own a home in the Bahamas, but was not arrested and has not been working on any shipwrecks there. His boat was not seized and he has never had any trouble with Bahamian authorities. This probably explains why we never heard another word about it and also why no record of it exists online outside the one article. I don't know any details other than what Allen told me, but he was adamant that nothing of the sort ever happened.

Thanks for the update, SF. Frankly, I would not have taken an isolated story like that too seriously except for seeing a similar story on a small website that corroborated it and embellished it with some fairly serious detail. Maybe both stories were just the product of the old rumor mill...everyone knows how these things can get started.

Anyway, I would very much like to think matters in the Bahamas are simply stuck in neutral for the same old bogus (albeit honest) reasons.

 

[tarpon192]

My family and I have not gone back to the bahama's for many years. We used to go all the time, and have been screwed over so many time's it has become a joke among us. We would buy fuel at a local marina ( not going to mention a name) and if our fuel bill was $622.00 I would give $700.00 and no one would ever return with change. Dockage- at the local marina was a joke. They said we used soooooo much water, and electric that we owed money. I ended up trading a full propane tank which cost me $16.00 in the states in return for our sooooooooooooo much water and electric use, that they wanted over $400.00 for what we used. My vessal hold's over 400 gallon's of fresh water - which was brought over from the U.S.A. and I have my own generator on board.
The bahama's has become a joke in the last 10 years.
One would be surprised how many bahamians come over daily on the "ferry" into lauderdale to shop and return to their home the same day.
The bahamas are a complete joke today.
Go their - fly your yellow flag - get a fishing permit, fish their water's and head home to the GOOD OLD U.S.A.

 

[grossmusic]

I feel compelled to post at least part of my Nassau Pirates story. I was on a whirlwind research tour to the archives on the islands when I first started researching the true Caribbean pirates back in 2008.

My last day in Nassau, a few hours before boarding a plane for Jamaica to continue my expensive research, I was robbed of over $1,700 cash by a hotel employee. I couldn't do much about it with adamant denials, ineffective police &...um...a few too many ounces of pirate rum in my system from a snorkeling junket a few hours earlier (the ONE time in my life I let down my hair & drank with strangers!). I was too buzzed to think straight!

I have to just look back & laugh to realize the irony that every worker in that hotel was likely a descendant of the very pirates I was there to research. "Laugh" with tears in my eyes. $1,700 is a LOT of money to this poor writer/musician!

But I've been back & will continue to go back to the touristy mess, because underneath all that phony foreign merchandise is a very intriguing history of nations colliding and ships wrecking. [tongue in cheek:] If I had the means, I'd definitely dive for treasures under the local law enforcement's radar. When amongst pirates, act like one. [in no way do I ACTUALLY mean this or advocate piracy or lawlessness!]

 

[captbonnie]

1. I have been proud to live and invest in the Bahamas. My parents spent the greater part of their lives here first on schooners in the charter business, then Staniel Cay in the Exumas, Long Island, and Eleuthera. From as long as I can remember: friendly people, clear and beautiful water, a place like no other. A privilege to be here, not a right.

2. It is my home not by birth but by my life. The Bahamas is not a nation of pirates; in fact, the history of the Bahamas is full of the pride of expelling pirates and also of giving a homeland to many fleeing the aftermath of the US Revolutionary War, religious persecution, and slavery. In the US, and in Europe, I have had items stolen, and been overcharged, and also had pleasant travel experiences. No place is perfect, and "touristy mess" anywhere is usually due to the tourists.

3. Anyone who labels themselves a pirate, or would wish to act like one, would not be welcome aboard my vessel. It is fun for Halloween, it is great history to read, and I too have dressed as a pirate in jest but when we are talking about salvage, about history, about supposedly wanting to recover that history in a reasonable fashion PIRACY is not the solution, nor is it a joke.

4. OK you can all boo me now but think about it - think about what you want to represent, to accomplish -- do you really want "treasure hunter" to become synonymous with looter? I don't. "Under the radar" ARE YOU SERIOUS- returning for fish or treasure, or what you can take and complaining there isn't more??

5. And as for reading I would like to recommend a book by a Bahamian -
Amazon.com: The Bahamas in American History eBook: Keith Tinker: Kindle Store

 

[bikerlawyer]

Well said Bonnie!

 

[Patrimony]

I knew a guy close to the last interior minister under the Ingraham Government and like anywhere justice has a price and Gardner had millions stashed away to spend over there. He spent a few weeks in the can in Nassau ad with every passing day his eagerness to get out causing him to raise his price for freedom even higher and higher... Of course his attorney did all the legal work and since there was less percentage in it for all concerned with keeping him locked up...he was soon out and everything went away. He is however banned from the water and spends his time on the Freeport Golf courses these days so they say