Odyssey Smoke and Mirrors

[trinidad]

Me mostly too. But the coins would be not to sell. It's just gold for the National Bank. Anyway, I agree with you, its sounds like a paper´s lie. I will appreciate an official position from the spanish Gov. before this inaccurate information.

 

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[Salvor6]

If Spain were trying to protrect their cultural heritage they would file suit against the Atocha, the 1715 fleet, the Santissima Trinidad, the Capitana, the Marivilla, etc etc. Look whats happening in DR! See my point Ossy?

 

[mariner]

Salvor6,

Prior to SeaHunt's attempt to salvage the Juno and (supposedly LaGalga), Spain had not adopted an interventionist stance with its wrecks. Then they were encouraged by the US Department of State to intervene in the SeaHunt case, after the US Government's own intervention was ruled inadmissible.

Although the case was mainly about the regulations and agreements concerning Spanish shipwrecks in US waters, some of the rulings went beyond that. At the same time, the UNESCO convention came into being, and Odyssey started using its technology to wrecks that had previously been inaccessible.

All this attention on shipwrecks caused Spain, I think, to re-examine its position and reconsider its rights. However, there was no point in trying to alter the rulings that had already been applied to wrecks like the Attocha, where due process had already been followed. Of course, if another wreck like the Attocha is found tomorrow in US waters, the 1902 Treaty would prevent the issue of a salvage permit.

Meanwhile, the US has also been passing legislation to protect its sovereign vessels. But like it or not, the US Government was the catalyst in all this.

Mariner

 

[mariner]

trinidad,

Thanks. I am aware of that article. However, it is a piece of journalism, not a statement of Spanish Government policy. As much as anything it is also a reaction to the fact that more and more wrecks will come under threat by recovery companies using the new technology.

I am not against the salvage of wrecks, and do not agree that they should be left on the ocean floor, by the way, but you have to understand and obey the law. Otherwise there will be chaos and anarchy.

Mariner

 

[Salvor6]

Thanks Mariner for explaining that in a nut shell. I know about the Juno & La Galga from news reports and John Amrhein's excellent book but I think Spain is being hypocritical about this particular case.

 

[MORE AND BEYOND OSSY]

trinidad,

Thanks. I am aware of that article. However, it is a piece of journalism, not a statement of Spanish Government policy. As much as anything it is also a reaction to the fact that more and more wrecks will come under threat by recovery companies using the new technology.

I am not against the salvage of wrecks, and do not agree that they should be left on the ocean floor, by the way, but you have to understand and obey the law. Otherwise there will be chaos and anarchy.

Mariner

Very well explained Mariner

 

[aquanut]

Everyone, including you OSSY, knows its all about the gold. Spain couldn't give a s**t about a wreck with nothing on it but their "Cultural Heritage"!
Aquanut

 

[truckinbutch]

Everyone, including you OSSY, knows its all about the gold. Spain couldn't give a s**t about a wreck with nothing on it but their "Cultural Heritage"!
Aquanut

When asked 'Why did you rob banks ?' Willie Sutton replied , "That's where the money was ."
Need I say more ?

 

[Philvis]

I think we need to retitle this topic to "OSSY Smoke and Mirrors". Haha! If Spain gets the coins it will only be on a technicality, not because of it being their "cultural heritage".

 

[jeff k]

Here are two more objections filed by the claimants attorneys. Odyssey has not filed theirs yet.

http://docs.justia.com/cases/federal/district-courts/florida/flmdce/8:2007cv00614/197978/228/0.pdf

http://docs.justia.com/cases/federal/district-courts/florida/flmdce/8:2007cv00614/197978/229/0.pdf

 

[mariner]

Jeff,

Thanks for posting those objections. Interesting.

Mariner

 

[4theMoney]

Everyone, including you OSSY, knows its all about the gold. Spain couldn't give a s**t about a wreck with nothing on it but their "Cultural Heritage"!
Aquanut

When asked 'Why did you rob banks ?' Willie Sutton replied , "That's where the money was ."
Need I say more ?

I have to agree with these guys..... And the only feelings that I have cultivated from following these threads is a growing dislike for Spain.

 

[ScubaDude]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taíno

 

[aquanut]

Mariner, Maybe I'm missing something. Where were there any attacks based on Ethnic/ Racial or otherwise...
I repeat...THIS IS ALL ABOUT THE GOLD!!!
Aquanut

 

[jeff k]

Odyssey's Objection...

http://www.shipwreck.net/pdf/dkt230OdysseyObjectionstoRandR_000.pdf

Objection & Exhibits...

http://www.shipwreck.net/blackswanlegal.php

 

[Salvor6]

Very interesting Jeff. The bottom line is that the cargo never belonged to Spain in the first place. Second, there is no visible shipwreck there. Thats why everyone is so angry at Spain's actions. Its not prejudice.

 

[mariner]

Pretty persuasive arguments. It's going to be interesting to see what the court does with them.

Interesting to see Vox/Claudio quoted in the document. I think the testimony that the Mercedes sank within sight of land is one of Odyssey's greatest assets in this case, despite the fact that the dates on the coins suggest that they were from the Mercedes. If this is not the scene of the Mercedes' demise, I wonder what vessel it might have been?

Mariner

 

[architecad]

I understand how you feel about Spain's procedure against American Shipwreck hunter. It's pretty much "unfair" to spend millions of dollars search and recovering a galleon and at the end Spain pretend claim 100% of all you found. I prefer don't make a profit over this business or make an agreement before to find gold.

In 1986, Mel Fisher went to Puerto Rico at Vieques island to find a Galleon full of Gold. Due at that time, no maritime law existed in Puerto Rico to regulate any wreck hunter, Mr. Mel took advantage of that reality at that moment and sent his diver to remove the gold while he was 'hanging out', back and forth in Vieques (this statement is in base of witness). Many people saw him walking for days on that island. Suddenly his worked was stopped by the Puerto Rican Government because no permit to remove gold or "National Patrimony". He spent time with the Puerto Rico senate trying to convince them but he never got the "green light" to remove the gold.

He had to drop back the gold that his men found."When you got trouble with the government, you going to loss"

Architecad

 

[ScubaDude]

It's about the money. Thats what I wanted to illustrate earlier. Coloring things with politically correct language, media spin, and crafty legal arguments doesn't change it. Yes, historically I think most everyone here has something their ancestors did that constituted poor behavior. It continues today in many places over oil, diamonds, weapons, drugs, and many other commodities tangible or not. We are about as barbaric now as we were then, probably more so now if the true numbers were compared.

As far as this case is concerned, I think claiming cultural heritage concerns over someone else's commercially shipped coins is demonstrating greed. It seems pure and simple when the end goal is to obtain something that was never theirs to start with. It is the same motivation that instigated the poor behavior centuries ago. Aside from clubbing people over the head and enslaving them to gain wealth, what has changed here? What haven't we learned? Someone is basically trying to take from someone by force something that never belonged to them. In this instance they are attempting to use the US court as the vehicle instead of shackles. I'm just not real sympathetic for them.

While this may have started out as a "good" fight with the intention of offering some future protection to Spanish cultural heritage resources, it is now deteriorated to being about the money.

With regard to Spain's new plan. Is this going to be the new standard in underwater archaeology and cultural heritage appreciation? Get the loot, leave the rest, we'll come back to it when the economy improves. That is a load of horse manure, and I find it humorous that the true motivations seem to be coming closer to the light of day. Who are the cazatesoros in this case? What is the correct term when one uses a Navy to do the work? Oh yeah I forgot, national archaeology plan, protecting cultural heritage..... At least Odyssey is upfront about it, and works for it.

Is it me or is there a double standard brewing here?

Please bear in mind the Spanish aren't the only ones with treasure ships are lying about. No one is picking on them for any reason other than they are the most active and vocal about "saving" their cultural heritage. This debate has nothing to do with xenophobia, it is about gold and silver.


Here is the translated version of the article posted above by Trinidad:

Gold sank in Spanish waters exceeds 100,000 million deficit

A report by the Navy is the increase in value and the accumulation of global noble metal

Enrique Montánchez Wednesday, June 17, 2009
A paper from the Navy, prepared during the National Plan of Archeology who will carry out the ministries of Culture and Defense, stressed that the decision to preserve the plundering of sunken treasure in Spanish waters coincides with an unprecedented global scenario. And pointing three reasons: the meteoric rise of gold prices, which reached historic highs, the noble metal accumulation by the major economic powers to the growing weakness of the dollar and the severe crisis of the Spanish economy.

Official estimates, more than 100,000 million euros, the value of gold and silver from shipwrecks with cargoes from the American colonies in the course of four years. An amount similar to the current deficit of the economy recognized by the Spanish Government.


The minesweeper lifted maps submarines

The Navy is preparing to tackle one of the most important in recent history: to create the first map of the seabed with the locations of hundreds of wrecks. In this context the accumulation of gold reserves by the major economies, Spain raises the potential of the more than 2,000 tons of gold sunk in its waters and those aware of the "cargo manifests that are preserved in historical archives. In most cases, the inventories do not represent the actual load of the ships, which was declared less common standard for smuggling activities and the personal gain of those involved in the journey to the metropolis.

The National Plan of Archeology states that the Navy is responsible for the work of search and location of wrecks. The military role in this colossal task is a personal decision of President of the Government, José Luis Rodríguez Zapatero, who believes that the Navy, in addition to ships and technical means, which has guaranteed the safety of surrounding sensitive and extensive deployment .

Five years to complete the map of the seabed

Indeed, not only about finding the wrecks and bring them to determine what type of archaeological work has to be tackled. "After each discovery, the Navy sources note, the most important thing is to prevent information leaks and keep safe from wrecks cazatesoros organizations that try to reach them when they leave."

A full archaeological map in Spanish waters will not be completed within five years, although it is possible that should be followed in parallel the recovery on those wrecks where they discover the remains of value. In any case, preserve the integrity of the wreck to keep it as a cultural asset. "If you find a thousand ingots of gold would not have any sense left in the seabed or in a museum exhibition, it would suffice for the latter with a few and the rest would go to the State," said a specialist in underwater archeology.


Remote Operated Vehicle by Zeus

It is obvious that the "Case Odyssey" has acted to shake the traditional apathy of the administration towards its underwater archaeological heritage. The American company cazatesoros extracted before the impassivity of the Spanish authorities, 500,000 gold coins of the remains of a sunken ship in the waters of the Gulf of Cadiz, using technology available in the market.

Commanders of the Navy are aware that the task set by the Government, in collaboration with the Ministry of Culture, within the limits of an archaeological campaign and has become a mission to the confluence of interests of that State and international economic policy .

The global banks accumulating gold for the weak dollar

In a deteriorating economic forecasts, with a recession in 2011 and reach a deficit this year to around 10% of GDP, about 100,000 million, as the Government admitted last Friday that the recovery would in the coming years of high quantities of gold are sunk in the eyes of the executive as a "miracle" that cling to the lifeboats.

In just five years gold has risen from $ 400 an ounce to the current 1000, with forecasts in the medium term exceed $ 2000. To what extent inject stability into the economy the Spanish contribution to the state coffers over the years tons of gold from the ships in the Carrera de Indias?

The gradual weakness of the dollar as global currency of reference has resulted in the national banks of China, India and Russia, among others, take months to accumulate gold. Strategy that does not respond solely to consider gold as a "safe value" traditional in times of crisis, but the possibility of an unexpected failure of the dollar would oblige the international community in support of their new currency to the gold standard. It is not an unlikely scenario if we consider that Russia and China have proposed, following the recent Summit of the G-20, creating a new currency that competes with the dollar.

European central banks also have slowed dry since last winter, selling their gold reserves. Decision, incidentally, that has highlighted the lack of foresight Bank Spain, which throughout 2007 showed almost half of its reserves.

The example of Russian reserves

An example of greed by hoarding gold in the economic crisis offered the Central Bank of Russia, which has set a goal that its gold reserves reach 10% of its total reserves, which means to reach 1,200 tons compared to the 500 tonnes that had late last year. The crisis has made the jump into pieces of political argument, as the former vice president of government economic Pedro Solbes, who said that gold "in the past played a key role as a reserve that is disappearing as it is not an asset profitable. "

The galleons of the Carrera de Indias sank in Spanish waters, according to conservative estimates, would house more than 2,000 tons of gold. It seems that Spain finally leaves to live with its back to the sea.

 

[mariner]

Scubadude,

On reflection, I think I may have over-reacted to your post. If you tell me you are not xenophobic, I am willing to accept that, and to withdraw my remarks. Indeed, I have deleted both of the posts.

Best wishes,

Mariner